Thinking about solar

[Lee Schierer]

With the price of power continuing to rise and the current incentives for solar panels, I'm thinking about having an array (maybe 16 panels) set up in my back yard. Our house is all electric and gas is not an option in our locale. I know that panels won't supply all our needs and our bill really isn't all that bad either. Anybody have any recent experience with solar panel installations and their ability to pay back?

[Prashun Patel]

We had a system installed in 2010 on our company building. The incentives vary by state.

In NJ, for every 1 MW of solar energy you generate, you receive a certificate (SREC). The SREC's can be sold on an exchange. The SRECs are currently trading around $650 in NJ. A typical residential installation will generate let's say, 10MW/year. So, besides the pure electricity savings, an NJ system can also bring about $5000-6000/ann.

For my company, the SREC income has been double the electricity savings.

When I calculated the payback for our company, I get between 4 and 5 years.

The US treasury also offers a 30% rebate on the price of commercial installations.

The IRS also allows you to depreciate the system much faster than typical capital purchases.

If yr state trades SREC's, then the calculated payback hinges on your personal assumption about the future price of those SREC's. I'm bullish for the next 5 years.

As for the maintenance, there really is none. A reputable installer will certify the parts for 20 years, and the labor/installation for 5 years in NJ.

If yr installing in the backyard, then leaks are a non-issue vis-a-vis a roof install (DAMHIKT!).

If you wanna know more, PM me.

[Chuck Wintle]

Don't solar panels lose efficiency over time?

[John Hemenway]

We went solar November of '07. We don't pay any electric bill. Used to be ~$2500/year. Your installer should be able to calculate payback years based on cost of your current power, rebates and current tax kickbacks. The location of the panels is important. Trees are bad. They should be cut down and turned into lumber! :)

We've made 21.415 MWh of power since install!

[Rich Eberly]

Slightly off topic, but solar water heating and solar air heating both might have a good expected return on investment as well.
Rich

[David Weaver]

Make sure you have your bases covered on insurance. I don't have an array, but I remember insurance being an issue when I was looking a few years ago. With as many incentives as there are, and the fact that we have net metering in PA (or something like that), it's a good time to get them. I don't remember what the sun factor is here, but I believe we get about 70% of the sun that an ideal location does, and there will be a lot of days where the array doesn't produce much, but it's a marathon and not a sprint. And, they've never been cheaper per kw.

I'd imagine the folks who install them could give you good advice on insurance and whether or not that's still an issue. Over time, it would have to become less and less of an issue as more households get them. Wouldn't want to have a nice array blasted by hail.

[Brian Elfert]

A different energy saving opportunity could be looking into geothermal heat/air conditioning in addition to or instead of solar power. The federal government will pay 30% (no limit) through 2016.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Lee,

Check out "Home Power" magazine for more information. Mother Earth News used to have anice forum but when they "redisigned" the website they made the forums almost unsuable but some one there may be able to point you to a good solar/ alternative energy forum.

[Bill Cunningham]

We went solar November of '07. We don't pay any electric bill. Used to be ~$2500/year. Your installer should be able to calculate payback years based on cost of your current power, rebates and current tax kickbacks. The location of the panels is important. Trees are bad. They should be cut down and turned into lumber! :)

We've made 21.415 MWh of power since install!

What did a array like that cost to install ?

[John Hemenway]

Blll C.
Well I really like your signature. I've already had the lightning flash!

I see to remember it was about $28K with tax rebates and credits of about $7-8K. So net of $21K, or so. If electric rates remained the same I was figuring payback in 8-10 yrs. YMMV

Time to take a big breath here. I'm guessing they are less now and might be really different 'way up north'. The local tax credits/rebates play a big part in the final pain in the checkbook.

Check around for a good installer and they will be able to give you more accurate info for your area. It's necessary to do an analysis of your needs and your site. We have one good roof area that gets lots of sun and filled it with panels. Turns out that was just right to supply all the electricity we use for the year. Our kids are out of the house so there are not lights left on 24/7! :)

I don't know if there is a 'lifetime' on the panels. The inverter and interconnect will probably have to be replaced at about 10 yrs since that is the warranty.

[Dennis Peacock]

I got a quote from a company out of texas to get me off the grid. Price quote was $68K installed. I said....no thanks.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Be careful of trusting any random solar installation company to do the ROI calculations for you. There is a LOT of stuff that goes into it. For instance, you would not believe how much power production is lost when a large leaf lands on a PV panel (it actually effects more than just the area it shades).

I'd do the ROI calculations yourself, being very careful to account for everything.

[Lee Schierer]

A different energy saving opportunity could be looking into geothermal heat/air conditioning in addition to or instead of solar power. The federal government will pay 30% (no limit) through 2016.

I have had a geothermal heat pump for more than 24 years. We upgraded to a geothermal heating/air conditioning unit between rebates, but I have no regrets. We added A/C but kept our electric use the same over the use of fans and a dehumidifier in the summer months to try to stay cool.

[Charles Goodnight]

I put in a 3.6 KW system. It covers all my electrical needs in the summer, not so great in the winter up in northern Vermont. I am not sure about payback. I got summer salary one summer (I am a professor) sort of out of the blue, and decided to put the money into something that would pay dividends forever. Solar was the choice. I like it because it seriously cuts my electric bill, but more importantly it insulates me from future rate increases. It really has removed electrical bills from my budgetary considerations. With energy prices going up the stability that that offers is appreciated. I also put in solar space heaters on a southern wall. I built these things for less than 500 dollars, and I am sure they payed for themselves in the first season. I am convinced that solar space heating is the single most cost effective use of solar. I suspect that solar hot water is a close second to solar space heating. It is in my future, but I haven't figured out the details yet.

[Ben Hatcher]

I also put in solar space heaters on a southern wall. I built these things for less than 500 dollars, and I am sure they payed for themselves in the first season. I am convinced that solar space heating is the single most cost effective use of solar.

Could you elaborate on solar space heaters? Do you have some links or resources you could point me to? It sounds very interesting.

[Charles Goodnight]

Sure. I don't have any pictures on my office computer (lunch break, dontcha know), so I will post a few photos this evening. Basically it is a 2" thick box on a south facing wall. Its a box with a hole through the wall into the house in the bottom and a second hole at the top. The holes are just 4" drier vent. The box is covered with a sheet of aluminum flashing painted flat black, a 1/4 spacer, and then a layer of the corrugated clear plastic used in green houses. The whole thing is then sealed with a frame.

In the middle of the panel I have a close on rise snap thermostat that completes a circuit if the temperature inside the panel rises above about 90 degrees.

Inside the house I have a 12 volt muffin fan that blows house air into the panel at the bottom, which drives hot air out at the top. The muffin fan is wired to the snap thermostat so that it only comes on if the panel is warm. (I also wired in a house thermostat, but I have that set at ninety -- when wouldn't you want heat in the winter? and an on off switch). Finally, I put a louvered drier vent over the top hole to prevent a back draft at night when the panel is closed.

I find that these panels will go on any time the sun is strong enough that you can feel it heating up your face. I have had the panels come on sunny sub-zero days, but where they really come into their own is in the spring and fall when its 30 or 40 outside. They literally turn off the furnace for the day.

[Charles Goodnight]

OK, here are some photos.192786192787192788

The first one shows the guts. In the center you can see the small shield that has the snap thermostat in it. I put it under the shield because it might short out on the flashing which is the next layer. You can also see the inlet (bottom) and outlet (top) holes. The position of the holes was affected by the ceiling line on the inside of the house. The second and third pictures show the installed panels. They have a layer of aluminum flashing separated by a 1/4 inch from the plastic glazing. I put holes in the flashing at the top and bottom to help circulation, but I doubt it does much.

In the third picture you can see my solar voltaic panels. The pictures were taken at a bad time of day so nothing is in full sunlight.

[Jerry Thompson]

If it were me I would look at using solar to heat water. We installed two panels aboutg 4'x8'. The water tank is 84 gallons. It has a photovoltaic cell that operates a small pump to circulate the water. We did this about 28 years ago. It is a once through system. There is no heat exchanger. There are sensors that open a valve in system on the roof that drains h2o when it gets to a certain temp. The water can get very, very hot. The original system had mixer valves that would mix hot and cold to come out of the tap at a desired temp. The main trouble we have had has been valves failing.
When we first installed it we used the neighbors elec. bill compared to ours. They usually ran within $5-10 per month of ours. The first full month ours was in use our bill was $70 cheaper that theirs. We had a teenage daughter who lived in the shower and they did not.
With all of the incentives out there to do things of this nature the prices will be up. I cannot give you a ball park figure what one would be today. My pay off was 8 years. I would do it again. I am not a tree hugger but I like to save money.
The only time a unit will not make hot water is @ night and when it is raining. The water can get hot enough that one can use the dish washer in the after noon and no detergent is needed.
Jerry

[Darius Ferlas]

OK, here are some photos
I guess this is what they call a pop can solar heater.
The process of making one is well documented here (http://sites.google.com/site/brianshomebrewsolar/).

[Ben Hatcher]

Thanks, Charles. I googled them when I got a chance. I must say that your version looks much nicer than the other examples I found. I wonder if I can convince my Aimee to put some of these on our house.

[John Pratt]

How about wind? I was looking at the Skystream wind turbine (I have no affiliation with them) and I am very intrigued. Living in Oklahoma where the wind always blows it seems more feasible and cost effective than solar. When I campared the costs, the wind turbine was 2.5 time less expensive than the price of solar but I would only lose 25% of the energy produced vs. solar. I guess it would depend on each persons location and the feasibility of putting up a wind turbine. However, I did see a picture of one of these in downtown San Fran for a roof top apartment.

[Jeff Nicol]

On average solar panels are maybe 25% efficient and have a lifespan of maybe 20 years with the technology available today, and most all of them are made in China so that is a kick in the teeth for American workers. In the US right now less than 2% of the energy used is from wind and solar, so to get to where there is 48% provided like what coal, gas and oil produce right now, how many 1000's of acres of solar panel and giant wind farms would it take?????? It is not possible ever, unless someone has a magic solar panel that puts out 110% power and has a battery that will hold 100% of the power created to be used at night and on cloudy days. Pretty hard to rely on something that is not guarenteed to be there when your Mother or daughter needs the power on to run the dialysis machine.

It is great for a cabin in the woods or in areas of the world where there is no infastructure to supply power to the grid, but everyone who produces extra KW's they just go into the grid and run down the line mixed in with the rest of the power in the line to be used by the next subsciber, who may be a huge factory that uses 500 times what you think you just saved, kind of silly in the long term until the technology becomes much, much better, we are tied to what we have now for a very long time to come and that is just the facts.

Passive solar is great like the water heaters and he hot air boxes and are very cheap in comparison. Use them and buy some insulation and good windows and you will be father ahead in the long run.

Good luck to all and thanks for letting me rant a bit!


Jeff

[Bill Cunningham]

OK, here are some photos.192786192787192788

The first one shows the guts. In the center you can see the small shield that has the snap thermostat in it. I put it under the shield because it might short out on the flashing which is the next layer. You can also see the inlet (bottom) and outlet (top) holes. The position of the holes was affected by the ceiling line on the inside of the house. The second and third pictures show the installed panels. They have a layer of aluminum flashing separated by a 1/4 inch from the plastic glazing. I put holes in the flashing at the top and bottom to help circulation, but I doubt it does much.

In the third picture you can see my solar voltaic panels. The pictures were taken at a bad time of day so nothing is in full sunlight.

Never thought of that! looks simple enough, and even though I'm in Canada, Northern Vermont is further north than I am! As a matter of fact, virtually every State that touches Canada is further north than I am.. I think maybe I'll build at least one of those this summer, and mount it on the back of my shop (faces south) and see how it works out.. We'll be selling our house in a year or two, (the only way i can retire) then building again on my Daughter's property where the property/water/sewer taxes are not 8+k a year. The new house will be on geothermal, and these types of hot air panels could make quite a difference.

[Darius Ferlas]

Bill, regarding your prior question (to someone else) about the cost of solar panels. The price will be higher in Canada and it also depends (of course) on the desired capacity. Don't quote me on that but a buddy of mine (a buiding inspector) said the price range for the max allowed of 10kW of capacity is $40 to 50K.

If you remain within that capacity then no building permits are required, uness the panels are to be instald on the roof. In that case you need and engineer's opinion regarding the roofs capacity to carry the aditional weight.

Also, the break even point may be different since you can connect to the grid and resell the electicity back to the grid for about $0.80/kWh and buy it for the current going rate which is almost 8 times lower. In other words, the best deal is when you don't use your panels to get the actual energy - just under $0.11 where I live. We already know this wil change in the next few years.

[Dan Friedrichs]

In the US right now less than 2% of the energy used is from wind and solar, so to get to where there is 48% provided like what coal, gas and oil produce right now, how many 1000's of acres of solar panel and giant wind farms would it take??????

Next time, you should consider doing some research before ranting. I won't even bother to touch on the myriad of factual inaccuracies you just spewed, but do want to point this one out: the reason solar is important is because the peak electric load (air conditioning) also coincides with the peak production point of solar. No one at all seriously believes we can replace all electric generation in the US with solar, but at present, we ramp up to something like 90% of capacity at peak loads (when solar could help), and down to something like 20% at night. That means we have to overbuild power plants by 5x in order to supply that peak load. Solar allows us to avoid some of that.

[Kevin W Johnson]

On average solar panels are maybe 25% efficient and have a lifespan of maybe 20 years with the technology available today......
Jeff

25%? Everything I've seen in my looking around is about 15%. And yeah, 80% of the "green jobs" our leadership campaigned on creating, are indeed going overseas. There are some USA made solar panels however, and those contemplating a jump to solar should deffinately look in to them.

[Lee Schierer]

kind of silly in the long term until the technology becomes much, much better, we are tied to what we have now for a very long time to come and that is just the facts.

Jeff

With regard to the taxes you mentioned. The governemnt is only giving me back my money, not yours or anyone else's. At best I get a tax credit for 30% of the installation costs which I can claim on my taxes next year. I've paid my share of taxes for over 40 years and take every legal deduction I can. Hopefully you do the same. I will not be spending a dime of your money on my system. If everyone put in a solar system we would save billions in imported oil and reduce global warming by a significant amount by not burning millions of tons of coal to keep power plants online just in case that big factory starts up one of their machines without calling the power company first.

I suppose it is better to continue to enrich those friendly Arab nations that love us so much by buying their oil than to be able to thumb our nose at them one small bit at a time by becoming less dependent on their resources. Sunshine is free and most of my back field where the array will go can't grow crops or produce anything but weeds.

With regard to the technology comment, only through investment in existing technology does technology advance.

[David Weaver]

It is definitely a tax expense. The government views your money as theirs, and tax breaks or cuts are viewed as "spending" bills. They have an interesting concept of what is theirs. Every time there is a bill that postpones pension funding, they call it a "savings" bill, because there will be less in deductible contributions. They actually describe a timing difference from deferring funding as a savings (and, of course, the fact that pension contributions will be higher later to fund the deficit created by the delay is never reflected). Given the way they view money, a dollar of lost revenue is a dollar of lost revenue, whether it's due to an energy credit or a bankrupt

Anyway, lower yield solar should be getting a lot cheaper in the future. The thing that would give me the willies at this point is hail. Earlier this year, we had inch sized hail. I would imagine a lot of the glass would've tolerated it, but what if some didn't? I don't live in tornado alley or anything, either - they have more to think about.

Jeff - I have a relative who did a grid tie-in with a 10kw windmill about 30 years ago. It didn't pay off. He got it used and did a lot of the work putting up the tower himself, but we don't have good wind and windmills don't exactly just run for 25 years with no maintenance. It was a toy more or less, I'm guessing.

I also don't agree with the tax credits for solar, but it's not a moral issue. I agree with dan's comments that solar grid tie in is a good peak power assist. As time goes on and we start having cars on 30 amps + at 230 charging, that solar will start looking better and better. It should only be a matter of time before it can be done without tax credits, but the manufacturing won't be going on here until times are really hard and the dollar is really near worthless. If I have the choice of buying solar panels from China or oil from the middle east, the choice is pretty easy.

And I'll say this as someone who has had asthma their entire life and who has lived downwind from coal and downwind from nuclear (as well as very close to TMI - during the partial meltdown): I will take nuclear any day of the week over coal, and I'm no tree hugger.

There's a lot of unused roof space that would be a lot better used soaking up rays than just getting hot in the winter and causing the air conditioner to run.

[Prashun Patel]

The installation rebates/grants/credits are nice, but I think the real savings comes SREC income if you live in a state that trades them. It does not appear that the PA price for these is quite so high as NJ. You really have to build your own payback model for this.

[Shawn Pixley]

I looked into it for my house. It paid back in 5-6 years depending upon what value you placed on money. Locally, they will not buy back the power from me, so I calculated just a little less than my consumption. I have a flat roof in California, so it is a good option here. No A/C at my house but still spend 200$ / mo because I live in a Beach community that is viewed as vacation homes. So we are charged a higher rate that standard residential customers. We also have a tiered rate structure in California as well. This makes it quite appealing.

I am not commenting upon the political or greener aspects that others have brought up.

[David Weaver]

I don't think everything that involves discussing government rationale has to become political, especially with respect to how the government defines tax incentives and changing tax rates. There's no need for it to become political, either.

As far as putting interest rates on money, individuals in a deregulated environment could probably just use a cash basis with no interest adjustment for determining whether or not solar is viable, and that might even be a conservative assumption if someone is going to be comparing stuff on a risk-free basis. Hopefully, the days of people deciding they can get a nominal return of 10% without risk (or a real reaturn of 6.5%) are over.

Don't forget the cost of insurance if it increases significantly, though. Has anyone who has put up a large array delved into that? How did the homeowners insurance handle it, and who is your company?

[Ben Hatcher]

I looked into the solar water heaters a bit last night. That looks like the most robust solar technology available right now. Those of you with radiant heat in your shop floors might want to look into converting it to a solar hot water system. The systems look like a pretty easy DIY project for a woodworker and for less than $1000 you could potentially heat your shop or home for free.

[David Weaver]

I wonder what the potential would be for a system that stores heat in water, in terms of harvesting heat for more than just during peak sun.

There is a wood burning system called the "Garn" that only burns for several hours every day or two and stores the heat in water and then circulates the heated water. When the water gets down to a certain temperature, you light a fire in it again and run it for a few hours until it gets up to the upper range of the operating temperature.

Wouldn't be easy to come up with several hundred thousand BTUs like the wood fired system can, but it *might* be doable on a smaller scale as a supplement. Would be a lot more useful on days in the fall and spring where the system would otherwise create excess heat during the day but not at night. Danger being that the larger a homemade system becomes, the better the chance for a leak, and leak damage could negate savings really quickly.

Couldn't see it being viable commercially - the thermal mass would have to be relatively large and unless the system was freestanding and away from the house, it would have to be customized to each location.

[Ben Hatcher]

David, the solar water heating solutions that I saw did exactly that, they heated a large collector of water during the day and circulated it through radiant floors or some other means at night. Of those that I looked at, the one that I liked the best put the collector and panel on an outbuilding and piped the hot water to the house through a trench. This allowed him to position the panel in the most ideal location and there is no concern over a leak in the collection tank. If I ever build my dream shop this will be a feature that I seriously consider adding.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

Please remember political comments, statements and discussions violate the Terms Of Service.

Also remember to remain civil.

You can discuss tax benefits, breaks etc. without giving your political opinion on them.

[Chris Padilla]

We put up solar heating for our pool a couple of years ago but, unfortunately, still have to run the pumps to get it up there. We never ran the pool heater (gas) much anyway but it limited the pool use. Now we use it a lot more. I realize this is bit of an extravagance and doesn't really save anything but the pool came with the house: it is a love/hate relationship. :)

When I had the roof redone a couple years ago, I moved a few vents to open up large undisturbed areas for future panels of some kind. :)

[David Weaver]

Chris...the advantage of solar heat over a solar cover would be....?

Presumably that it works with the pool covered or uncovered?

Way back when I was young, a neighbor had a solar cover on their pool. Our water was about 72 degrees at the highest (to much shade except when the sun was directly overhead) and theirs (less shade for them) was about 84. I doubt we used nearly as much chlorine as they did, but they also got in their pool much more often than we got in ours. There's something not that inviting about high 60s to low 70s water temps.

[Kevin W Johnson]

Chris...the advantage of solar heat over a solar cover would be....?

Presumably that it works with the pool covered or uncovered?

Way back when I was young, a neighbor had a solar cover on their pool. Our water was about 72 degrees at the highest (to much shade except when the sun was directly overhead) and theirs (less shade for them) was about 84. I doubt we used nearly as much chlorine as they did, but they also got in their pool much more often than we got in ours. There's something not that inviting about high 60s to low 70s water temps.

Buuurrrr..... We opened our pool three weeks ago, and even with sub-par night time temps, and quite a few rainy days, our water temp was 77 today.

As for solar heater over a solar cover, the heater would be more efficient at heating the water and provide warmer water. However there is the down side of running a pump. The biggest upside is an extended swimming season. Thankfully i dont have to worry so much about chlorine either, other than making sure its at the correct level.

[Bill Cunningham]

Bill, regarding your prior question (to someone else) about the cost of solar panels. The price will be higher in Canada and it also depends (of course) on the desired capacity. Don't quote me on that but a buddy of mine (a buiding inspector) said the price range for the max allowed of 10kW of capacity is $40 to 50K.

If you remain within that capacity then no building permits are required, uness the panels are to be instald on the roof. In that case you need and engineer's opinion regarding the roofs capacity to carry the aditional weight.

Also, the break even point may be different since you can connect to the grid and resell the electicity back to the grid for about $0.80/kWh and buy it for the current going rate which is almost 8 times lower. In other words, the best deal is when you don't use your panels to get the actual energy - just under $0.11 where I live. We already know this wil change in the next few years.

Ya annoying isn't it! The price for 'everything' in Canada is higher, even though our dollar is worth 5% more than the U.S. buck at the moment. Just doing a quick calc. on the hydro rate where I am, Including leakage, Ont. Hydro debt reduction, delivery, and 13% HST on everything... The last bill, I was paying about .14 kwh. I have a big heatpump, and now I'm wondering where the btu/kwh breakeven point is on that, and wondering if NatGas is getting to be more economical (I have a 3stage ultra H.E. gas furnace in the house as well).. To install a solar system, and hook it to the grid, you have to have a 'contract' with the local utility, if they won't issue one and pay the going rate, yer outa luck. Your just making the Elec. for yourself regardless of McGuinty's great plans to turn everyone green. Between the shop, and the house I use 35-50 kwh a day. One of these days, I'll win the lottery, buy a HUGE big Hummer, and put a Bumper Sticker on the back that says "It ain't easy being green":cool:

[Darius Ferlas]

Ya annoying isn't it! The price for 'everything' in Canada is higher, even though our dollar is worth 5% more than the U.S. buck at the moment.
I'm lucky that way because I'm under 20 minutes from major shopping centers on the other side. I'm in the US every week, even for groceries. I save about 40%. I used to buy everyting in Canada when I worked in Buffalo. In the 3 years of commuting I didn't even buy our gasoline in the States. But first things first, family before patriotism.


Just doing a quick calc. on the hydro rate where I am, Including leakage, Ont. Hydro debt reduction, delivery, and 13% HST on everything... The last bill, I was paying about .14 kwh. I have a big heatpump, and now I'm wondering where the btu/kwh breakeven point is on that, and wondering if NatGas is getting to be more economical (I have a 3stage ultra H.E. gas furnace in the house as well).. To install a solar system, and hook it to the grid, you have to have a 'contract' with the local utility, if they won't issue one and pay the going rate, yer outa luck. Your just making the Elec. for yourself regardless of McGuinty's great plans to turn everyone green. Between the shop, and the house I use 35-50 kwh a day. One of these days, I'll win the lottery, buy a HUGE big Hummer, and put a Bumper Sticker on the back that says "It ain't easy being green":cool:

I read about a lot of complaints. Allegedly, those smart meters "steal" power. Looking at my usage I'd agree. The same usage patterns but the bills show the usage is increased >20%.

I wasn't aware you needed a contract. Kinda immaterial for me at this point. My daughter got accepted to MA program in London School of Economic in the UK, so there goes the $50K I budgeted for the panels.

I'm not gonna talk about MacGuilty cuz that would get me a serious ban from this forum as I find it extremely difficult to talk about him without using some hard language every other word.

[Ben Hatcher]

Chris...the advantage of solar heat over a solar cover would be....?

Presumably that it works with the pool covered or uncovered?...

And the resulting ability to use the pool while it is being heated. With the solar cover there is always the question of do we leave the cover on to take advantage of the sunny day to heat the pool or take it off and take advantage of the sunny day to use the pool?