Longworth vs Cole Jaws vs Vaccuum Chuck

[Joe Vincent 63]

I am new to turning and am working on getting set up to turn bowls and platters. My goal size-wize would be up to 16" or so. I plan to get the vicmarc m-120 as my main chuck, and am now working on a way to reverse chuck the bowls to turn the bottom. I am debating between the Longworth Chuck, Cole Jaws for the Vicmac, or a vaccuum system of some kind. I've done a lot of research which shows that most people that purchase cole jaws ($139) quit using them due to the effort to set them up. The new phenolic longworth chuck by looks well made, but I question how securely it will hold the work, can't find any reviews on it, and the expense of $169 is well on the way to a vaccuum set up that most folks really seem to like.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. If you use a vaccuum chuck, which is your favorite? I would be looking to purchase, as my skill level has a ways to go yet before I would be making my own jaws, etc.

Thanks in advance!

Joe

[Steve Schlumpf]

Joe - when I started turning bowls I picked up the mini-jumbo jaws for my Talon chuck. They worked but you had to watch how aggressive you were as it was easy to pop the bowl out of the grips. I then made my own donut chuck and found it to work much better at holding the turning. From there I built my own vacuum chuck system and it is by far the easiest way to finish the bottom of a bowl because you have total access!

Here are a few links for you:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?84279-Vacuum-Chuck-System-%E2%80%93-How-I-Built-Mine
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?99878-My-Vacuum-Chucking-System

And here is a vendor who offers a complete vacuum system: http://www.jtturningtools.com/

[David Walser]

Joe,

Longworth, Cole Jaws, and Vacuum Chucks are not perfect substitutes. In some situations, one will work while the others won't. For example, you might not be able to use a Longworth chuck or Cole jaws to reverse a natural edge bowl, but a vacuum chuck will work just fine. On the other hand, a vacuum chuck won't work well with porous surfaces or extremely thin walled vessels (a vacuum strong enough to hold the vessel may crush it if the walls are too thin). For my money, the Cole jaws are the most flexible of the group. By rearranging the buttons, you can hold an out-of-round object. (You can even mount wooden blocks onto the jaws to hold an oddly shaped object, such as a natural edge bowl.) Longworth chucks are wonderful because they're extremely quick and accurate. But, when it works, a vacuum chuck is the ultimate because nothing gets in your way.

HTH

[Jim Sebring]

A donut chuck is still the most secure way to hold a reversed piece, but it may take a while to recenter the piece. It also doesn't care if the power fails ;-)

[Glenn Roberts]

Joe, You won't go wrong with the Vicmarc, they are a great chuck. have you considered using a 'dough nut' chuck. You can make your own and if made with safety in mind, can be very effective for reverse chucking. As you say some of the options can have limitations.

[Michelle Rich]

If I were to suggest to a newbie, I would suggest the cole jaws. simple, rugged, reliable. You, with imagination, can do 90% of what you need to do with them. You are heading to financial ruin anyway, as you get out your wallet for the vortex, so if you decide on a vacuum chuck in the future for natural edge bowls, well, that's the way it is, when one is addicted to turning.

[Alan Trout]

I still use friction or jamb chucks most of the time and I have lots of Cole jaws and have used vacuum chucks. They are easy and effective and very cheap. Personally I would spend the money that you would spend on cole, longworth, or a vacuum chuck on extra jaws for your chuck or even another chuck as I feel those will pay bigger dividends in your learning and gives you the best bang for your turning dollar.

Alan

[Joe Vincent 63]

If I were to suggest to a newbie, I would suggest the cole jaws. simple, rugged, reliable. You, with imagination, can do 90% of what you need to do with them. You are heading to financial ruin anyway, as you get out your wallet for the vortex, so if you decide on a vacuum chuck in the future for natural edge bowls, well, that's the way it is, when one is addicted to turning.

Hi Michelle,

How long does it take you to set up the cole jaws? Or do you keep them on a separate chuck?

Joe

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I recently got the LW chuck, and it really isn't that secure of a hold. I've managed to pop 2 bowls off the chuck, BUT the bowls suffered no ill effects. They were both dislodged by a catch, and I'm pretty sure if I get better at using it, the chuck whould work fine. It is only designed to finish off that tenon or recess. I was trying to even out the thickness on one bowl and a little agressive on the next.
I have no experience with the Cole or a vac rig. The Cole IMO requires too much work, if you have to swqap jaws, and/or button placement, and there are many complaints about the marks that they leave. I would also think you could put enough pressure on the bowl to shatter it.
All of that being said, the best way is to use a jam chuck. I've not had any events using a jam chuck... It's also free. But since I got the LW, I've not used a jam chuck. The LW fits in the #2 jaws, so it's fast and easy.

[Joe Vincent 63]

David,

How long does it take you to set up the cole jaws to use? For the expense, it almost seems better to just get the vaccuum chuck, but maybe that is a purchase best left for after I gain some experience.

Joe

[Roland Martin]

I would think a donut chuck, if made well may be the safest of other reverse systems. I use the cole from time to time on smaller items and items that aren't too fragile. The donut chuck can accomodate most everything, but takes a while to center the piece and bolt it in place. I've since made myself a vacuum chuck and use that most of the time, it's quicker and quite easy to center the turning. IMO, a good set of cole jaws and a vacuum chuck make a nice pair, there isn't one alone that will do everything.

[James Combs]

Here is another link to a homemade vacuum system. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?162882-My-New-Vacuum-Chuck&highlight= I found the pump at a pawn shop for a $100 (reg $240-280) and got most of everything else from my salvage or Lowe's.

As far as which is better, I don't have a Longworth but I do have Cole jaws, several jam chucks (basically scrap turnings) and a homemade doughnut chuck. I use which ever one best fits the situation at the time although since I finished the vacuum chuck I tend to use it the most.

[Michelle Rich]

Hi Joe: I have 2 sets set up on 2 chucks..one a oneway the other a vicmarc..I never take them off..but if you did have to swap out jaws it takes less than 3 minutes. It is not an insurmountable amt of time for a hobbyist turner. Is it fun? Naw, but chucks are expensive & 3 minutes won't kill you.
these are used to clean up the bottom of bowls..that is ALL you use them for..even then you might want to get the tailstock up there until the very end..
you can get extended rubber grippers, and use tape too to hold vessels on. you can make custom wood spacers and make set ups that the rubber grippers might not like..ie, bolws that have a flairing to the inside rim... The day I got my first set of cole jaws I was in heaven,. I turn & woodwork for my living and the cole jaws have made my life much easier than jam chucks or other homemade items.
Now this is just my opinion, and it is worth what you paid for it.

[Mark Levitski]

For me, a vacuum chuck is the way to go. Why? It can always double as a jamb chuck w/ the tailstock brought up. I routinely bring up the tailstock center to center the piece on the vacuum drum anyway (the center point and the cup ring are still visible). For some pieces, such as those with perforated bottoms, vacuum cannot be used. Also, no matter what the design of the rim, and as long as it is somewhat of an open form, this method will work whereas cole jaws, donut, or Longworth might not. Finishing the nub at the center is all you have left to do, and that is pretty easy. As others have conveyed, a vacuum chuck makes turning a lot easier.

[Roy Turbett]

I have the Vicmarc 120 with Cole jaws and they only take a couple of minutes to set up. The buttons have 2 concave and 2 convex sides that you orient depending on whether you hold the piece in expansion or contraction mode. The screws on the Cole jaw are slightly longer than the screws for the stock jaws and the max safe speed is 800 RPM. You will want to finish everything you can on the outer edge of the bottom before you mount your piece in the cole jaw because the buttons will get in the way. This isn't as big a problem if you use them in the expansion mode.

[Chip Sutherland]

In order of use/preference: Vacuum, donut, cole, jam. By far, the vacuum is the easiest to setup but you cannot vac everything. The Donut is harder to setup and align but high confidence. Cole jaws buttons are a nuisance and only work on bowls with certain types of rims. Jam chucks are quick but I never seem to have any waste material handy and I typically only use them for small pieces like boxes. Don't have a longworth. Seen plans for making them but if I was into building jigs, I'd still be doing flat work.....

[Peter Hay in Aus]

Joe,
The Longworth Chuck was designed and made here in Australia then named after the guy and a full description of how to make was on the net. We in our Woodcraft guild had a working bee and set up a Router et al and all made our own at negligable cost, have never seen a commercial one, I have seen many variations and improvements since then. But caution please using one on an occasion we were gathered at a members house workshop one Saturday my mate was using it as a demo on shut down the damn thing spun off the shaft , he caught in on his chest and it fractured his sternum ie where the ribs meet, wrecked his shirt and we were candidates for a change of underware. My solution was to remake the holding to the shaft part by fitting a grub screw with a plastic insert first in the threaded hole to lock the Longworth Chuck whilst using it, no more drama. Also beware running the chuck at too high a speed this guy forgot he was on top speed when he started up, lots of lessons there.

Be safe, kind regards Peter.

[Rich Aldrich]

I made a donut chuck using a 6" face plate that came with my lathe and some scrap plywood. I did have to buy some lag bolts, but everything was quite inexpensive. The real trick to me was to learn to leave the center mark from your tail stock on the bottom of your bowls so you can center the bowl using your tail stock on the donut chuck.

You can use the money you save by making this chuck so you can go broke buying other things for turning. The vortex is centered on your wallet and it really sucks the money out.

[Steve Campbell]

Joe I have all of them, and use all of them from time to time. I am all about making things myself. I made a donut chuck first and that works quite well. I then built the longworth chuck. I still use that some. I would say I use my vacuum chuck by far the most. Even if you can't get it to hold vac you can still use it as a jam chuck.

Steve

[John Spitters]

There is no need to have either one of these ... Yet I do have a number of different sized vacuum chucks, a Longsworth chuck, and Cole jaws. BUT ! most often used is some sort of a jamb chuck, one that I use often is an 18" disk of 3/4" MDF mounted to a small faceplate. I simply turn a recess to fit the rim of the bowl then bring up the tailstock for support and turn the bottom leaving a small nub to be cut of and sanded by hand. Once this face plate gets to beat up for further use it's quick easy and cheap to replace. On bowls with uneaven rims as in a natural edged piece I will often place a piece of foam over the jaws of my chuck, place the bowl over this and once again bring up the railstock for support.

John

[Joe Vincent 63]

Everyone,

Thanks for all the great thoughts and ideas. I am adding the 14" Cole jaws to the Vicmarc chuck I ordered. In the meantime, I'll continue to investigate vacuum chucks for when the need truly arises.

And the vortex begins :) ...

Joe

[Jon Murphy]

This is a very belated comment on this thread, I just looked at it as I was considering alternatives. I agree with the many of you who find vacuum chucks the best alternative, but I'm not able to use one - so will discuss the others. My problem with a vacuum chuck is that my workshop is in my condo apartment bedroom - I don't have the space for the pump and as the pump is noisy it would annoy my neighbor.

I have Cole jaws, and they are useful when turning seasoned wood - but I do a lot of green wood turning and the rim is seldom exactly flat even if just off the chuck, the wood warps very quickly. A donut chuck has the same problem in getting the centering with green wood - and the additional problem that you can't smooth the "transition" from one center to another. I use jam chucks, I keep a supply of various sizes. If you choose the jam chuck route you should invest in the Beale tap in the size of your headstock spindle (mine is 1" x 8 tpi). That way you can make a number of jam chuck blanks and thread them onto the headstock to shape them to the particular piece when needed.

There is no way I've figured out yet to perfectly align a natural edged or a green cut bowl to do the bottom - the best you can do is get it close. With a seasoned bowl you can make a jam chuck with a flat to support the rim and a shaped "nose" to put pressure in the bowl (with appropriate foam or rubber fillers).

I've looked at the commercial Longworth chucks, it would be quite an effort for me to make one as I don't have the facility to make the routed curves without buying some more stuff. I don't like the idea that they are all clamped in jaw chucks - I'd prefer a fitting to the headstock thread. I think I'll stick with my jam chucks and Cole jaws, mainly the jam chucks. There is no great problem with finishing a bottom with the tailstock on. Use a cup and pin center to orient the center (cone, or pin only, is difficult for small adjustements - the pin wants to go where it used to be). Take the bottom clean to the cup, then substitute a cone and take it cleaner - then take the piece off the lathe and remove the last bits with a wood carver's #2 gouge.

[John Keeton]

Jon, you have given new life to an old thread! Sounds like you have the right approach given your circumstances, though I have never understood why one would fool with tapping a jamb chuck if they are using a chuck vs. faceplate. I use jamb chucks a lot, and simply keep some scraps that have tenons on them. I re-chuck them, and true up the face to the profile needed. Seems so much easier than drilling and tapping a piece.

Also, in lieu of using a chisel to remove the nub, I suggest using a Jacobs chuck and a 1" sanding back up pad to sand it away. Much easier, quicker, less chance of damage to the bottom, and you end up with a smoother, more even surface that can quickly be taken to a 400 grit finish. Vince Welch is a good source for those - http://vinceswoodnwonders.com/back-up-pads/ I have 1" discs in 80, 120, and 180, but usually just use the 80 grit and hand sand from there. Just takes a few minutes.