a tutorial on a 5 centered negative space design

[Michelle Rich]

I will attempt to share how I approached turning my neg. space designs. this was one of my first. It was entitled Ala Weissflogg. the problem as I saw it was how to hold the material and then get the design done without sending the piece airborne. I had no eccentric chuck, and I would have had a hard time trusting one to hold large pieces, anyway. I came up with the idea of a 1/2 inch carriage bolt held in a chuck.
STEPS
1. find center in square..drill a 1/2 inch hole
2. take to bandsaw & turn as round as you can
3. use bolt & put wood on & turn your rim to size & finish
4. take off lathe and using crossing marks from previous squaring lines, come in one inch from the rim and drill 4 holes .
NOW THE REST IS ONLY FOR NON_WEENIES!!! AND IDIOTS!!
5. Put piece back on the bolt,at any of the 4 outside holes and spin! This is entirely scary. If I were you I would start with less than a 6" piece...Take a parting tool and start cutting..go 1/2 way thru your wood, on all 4 centers.(this requires large lathes..I use a Nova 3000 with a 29 inch swing!)
6. Turn piece around. If you have cole jaws, you are in great shape. Cut 1/2 way thru from this side. You should now see your back pattern emerge.
If you do not have cole jaws, place the bolt in the center hole and use parting tool the same way.
The piece will now be entirely nasty and need sanding in all the openings and on all your left over beads on the front.It will require lots of hand sanding and detail work. Good luck

[John Keeton]

Michelle, nothing like a Sunday morning surprise!! And, by now, you have easily finished your third cup of coffee - I know your habits well! Great little tutorial. I suspect the fear factor was pretty high the first time you did this - would be for me!

[Steve Vaughan]

Dang Michelle, that's the coolest! I am not a weenie, so I'm gonna have to do this - not so sure when, but I'm gonna do that. With your description, and now looking at the piece a second time, it all makes exact sense, can't figure out why I didn't figure that out! Take care and thanks!

Michelle, on this particular piece, how thick is it and what kind of wood?

[Michelle Rich]

So I've become predictable eh?? Good morning yourself early bird! The fear factor pretty high? You are a man of understatement! I turned on the lathe & ran! Scared me silly!

[John Hart]

Nice tutorial! I'd like to give this a try when I have a larger swing...hopefully in the next few months. The only thing that scares me off, is the hand-sanding part. That's scary!!

['Jacques Malan']

At first I thought the picture of the bowl/masterpiece was a CAD drawing.

I would like to a bit more sideways view, my head doesn't seem to fit around that picture.

Now I also remember why I don't often go to the turners forum, you make me feel incompetent.

[Michelle Rich]

thanks early risers..I do want to WARN EVERYONE THIS IS DANGEROUS..do not try this if you are new to turning or are accident prone. My chuck holds a bolt very frimly..I have ones that do not.(And I constantly check the bolt!! I check every few minutes) Your lathe must be very heavy and be bolted down. It is scary doing these & seeing thru to your headstock and beyond. I can see my dogs wandering in the yard thru the design as it turns. If you wish to do these, start very small. All it would take to get hurt is a mess up with the equipment or if your wood has a weak spot. The speed this will go airbone could injure you., and VERY BADLY. REMEMBER YOUR SAFETY AT THE LATHE IS YOUR RESPONIBILITY! GO SLOWLY & BE SAFE

[Michelle Rich]

I'm sorry Jacques..the piece sold a year ago or so & I have no side picture
Steve : this started as a 3/4 inch piece.. and is maple I believe this was about 1/2 to 5/8th when finished. but I have another design at .363 As I have progressed, they have become thinner..especially peices with no rim.

[Tim Thiebaut]

That must have been like a propeller trying to take off on you. My little 1220 is to small for anything like this, but I guess I could try a mini piece at some point, so many things to try! Thanks for posting this Michelle, would love to see a Youtube vid of this spinning on your lathe.

[Michelle Rich]

Tim, Hans Weissflogg does this on mini pieces (little box tops, etc) he admits he has tons of failures. You can make small items on your lathe with double stick tape..Many folks make eccentric designs this way. Starting small is a super way to learn. Don't let that keep you from trying.

[Roland Martin]

Thanks for the tutorial, Michelle. Now that you've explained how the process goes, I've got even more respect for your abilities in negative space turnings, very interesting. I'm up for giving this a try (on a small diameter). Thank God for VFD.

[Michelle Rich]

I must tell all of you that this bolt idea was not my first attempt at this. i must have tried 10 other methods. I tried a cole jaw set, with the rubber bumpers offset, with the bumpers in a normal orientation and wedges to offset the piece and other toatally unsafe methods! I am currently using a bolt, but I am also trying other SAFER ideas...If any of you have a better & safer concept, I sure would like your ideas. i spent a year trying to figure this out & this is the best I have come up with.

[Dick Wilson]

Michelle, As much as I turn I don't know if I am skilled enough to try one of these. I have enough excitement in my life with the pieces I turn now that disappear off my lathe:eek::eek::D:D. That is why I marvel at the work by you and turners like Richard Kennedy.

[Michael Short]

Thanks for the tutorial Michelle. I like your ideas of the carriage bolt. I am not sure that I have gotten up enought bravery to this yet. Perhaps someday.

These turnings are really cool that you do.

[Cathy Schaewe]

I think I value my fingers and nose (and eyes and head) too much to try this one. I'll just admire the finished results, from a distance!

[Gary Max]

Very cool---------heck I thought you where using a router. I will have to give this a shot as soon as I can find some time. Thanks

[Alan Zenreich]

This is a lovely piece, and I like doing offset turning on small pieces, but please permit me to ask an obvious question.

I know that we are woodturners and like to do things on the lathe.

But couldn't this piece be accomplished more simply and with considerably more safety by using a router with a circle jig?

Is this a case of "when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail" ??

With all the caveats about the physical risks of using this technique, I'm wondering if it's a case of using the wrong tool for the job.

(edit: I do not want to hijaack Michelle's thread, so if this spawns a larger discussion I'm happy to have it moved to a new thread. Thanks!)

[Michelle Rich]

Hi Allen..as a matter of fact I have made this piece like one would make it as a segmented turning. Envision what is still there. cut pieces to match that. turn rings..glue together..ta da..another method..slower, but neater & safer. As I have relayed to everyone I have been experimenting with this for 18 months..finding many ways to do these..Some I have kept, & some I have kicked to the door. If anyone has better ideas, I am open to them.
Mr Weissflogg does it this way on smaller items. This was one of my first very good turnings with his methods using my own way to hold the larger piece. Now I do much more convoluted pieces and the experimentation just keeps going on. A router & circle jig? sure try that & see how well you index...there are just as many problems with each method...i hope your experiments are fun...

[Baxter Smith]

Thanks for the tutorial Michele. Makes sense, and makes sense to start small too!;):)

[Bernie Weishapl]

Thank you Michelle for the tutorial. That is a beautiful piece.

[Tom Wilson66]

That explains a lot about the method you use. Been wondering how it is done. Would need to modify it a bit for may Jet mini, say a 1/4" bolt and a 2 inch disk! That way it wouldn't hurt so much when it hits me.

[Michelle Rich]

OK ya'll, I appreciate all the comments. You do not have to do this design this way. It has potential danger, 'fer sure...but you can move those 4 centers inward. You will not get 4 partial circles, but will get circles. Nothing wrong with that & your swing will be drastically reduced. You will have a different look. This first basic design was the basis for 2 other pieces that were turned later. I hope all of you who aksed for this info, understand the concept now and can experiment on your own, and share with us.

[Dan Hintz]

Michelle,

Very slick method, and the designs it turns out (no pun intended) is quite nice. Have you considered a metal backing plate that could have three more pieces of wood (or even metal) attached to it? Your design piece goes in one quadrant, and the other three scrap pieces fill the remaining quadrant, balancing out the lathe. You could spin a little faster, maybe go to a bigger piece of wood.

[Michelle Rich]

That's right Dan, give Michelle another concept to run with..HA!:p Yep that would be like making a "homemade" eccentric chuck, yes? I think I am grasping your idea, but it would have to hold many sized pieces and be adjustable. Can you make that item, test it, and send it to me??:D Take all the time you need, I just turned 70...I'll wait . I'll get a comfy chair and my cane and sit outside and wait for the UPS driver to bring it!!!:D

[Dan Hintz]

I'm not thinking of anything complicated, mind you. A piece of sheet steel with four elongated holes running from the center towards the edge. The elongated holes allow you to move the plate in relation to the item being turned. If you use heavy metal weights instead of scrap wood, they won't have to extend out as far as the workpiece to keep it in balance. Everything is held on with the bolts you're currently using. The only new addition is the "holey" plate ("bless you, my child") and some weights.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Michelle - thanks for sharing your tutorial! After your explanation I have even more respect for the final product! I can understand the setup, the cutting process but it is the sanding that stops me cold! I can only imagine the amount of hand sanding on some of your designs! Hey - more power to ya!

Looking forward to seeing your next negative space design! Have fun and be safe!

[Michelle Rich]

Got ya "my son" ..What you are describing is something i "sorta" tried with my cole jaws..i have the largest set Vicmark makes..and I tried keeping the piece trapped on there in an offset position..it worked, but not well. I did not want to put holes in my dang nab expensive cole jaws. What it lacked was repeatability in placement and the ability to hold it firmly enough. Your idea is great, and I think malcolm tibbets's book or Ray Allens, has just what you describe. Big project. Appreciate you thinkin' on the idea and for passing it on.

[Jim Adkins]

Michelle.....Thanks for the tutorial, scarey as it is!! I very much admire someone who has the bravery to accomplish something such as this!! Maybe someday, so many things to try, so little time.

[John Hart]

On the router idea...I think that this particular piece might ask for a router, but as you start on the lathe with flatter. simpler designs, and get a good feel for it, then you would naturally progress to the more complex forms that couldn't possibly be done with a router. Seems like a necessary step in order to graduate to the impossible. :)

[Brian Libby]

Great piece. What Dan was thinking is similar to what was in Wood magazine , issue March 2004, had a turned two sided trivet. They used a jam chuck/auxiliary faceplate/cole jaw setup.
(MDF, offset recess,hold down tabs)

[BILL DONAHUE]

Well, since I meet the criteria for moving on to steps 5 and 6 I'm going to try it as soon as I get the wood. Wondering if a larger version of the pendant backer plate as made by Richard Joyner would do the job. It would need to have a way to fix the wood to the plate, maybe using rubber grippers. I've tried to do this with pendants but the double sided tape on the pendant backer plate just would not hold.

[Steve Campbell]

Michelle. Thanks so much for taking the time to share your expert styles with us. I am going to keep this in mind if I ever get a bigger lathe. Your works are all beautiful........

Steve

[Michelle Rich]

Well, since I meet the criteria for moving on to steps 5 and 6 I'm going to try it as soon as I get the wood. Wondering if a larger version of the pendant backer plate as made by Richard Joyner would do the job. It would need to have a way to fix the wood to the plate, maybe using rubber grippers. I've tried to do this with pendants but the double sided tape on the pendant backer plate just would not hold. Hi Bill: if you have cole jaws with slots, you can use them, and put your rubber grippers in the slots. The problem is getting the holes you drilled exactly centered on all 4 corners. If you do not get it centered, the designs will be all screwy...good luck..hope you post your results.

[John Beaver]

Michelle,
Thanks for sharing and participating in the discussions.
Here's some ideas I have thought of... in place of your bolt method, have you tried the wood screw that most chuck's come with (at least mine do) and a block of wood as the nut. These are designed to fit perfectly in the chuck and it would lower the risk factor of losing that bolt. You could even have one machined to fit a bolt.
My second thought is building a rig that holds a router on the lathe, so you are cutting with the router, but still spinning and indexing with the lathe. Could be the best of both worlds, could be the worst?

Keep it up, I love what you're doing.
John

[Michelle Rich]

Michelle,
Thanks for sharing and participating in the discussions.
Here's some ideas I have thought of... in place of your bolt method, have you tried the wood screw that most chuck's come with (at least mine do) and a block of wood as the nut. These are designed to fit perfectly in the chuck and it would lower the risk factor of losing that bolt. You could even have one machined to fit a bolt.
My second thought is building a rig that holds a router on the lathe, so you are cutting with the router, but still spinning and indexing with the lathe. Could be the best of both worlds, could be the worst?

Keep it up, I love what you're doing.
John Thanks so much for the "atta girl" ..nice to receive. Yes, a router would be the ideal..go to Harvey Fein.net..he designed quite a system..I am not that mechanical..he had it custom built. I do not have his $$$!!! I have used his, & Hans W.'s (he tells no one how he does it) concepts and tried to take them farther than they have. The bolt is less than $1.00. I do not claim it is safe nor reasonable. just that at the time I did that piece, that is how I did it. As you can see, it was the beginning to much fancier pieces..(turning for gearheads & broken circles) I have moved on , with items like Sunburst. Concepts and ideas are great until one really tries them. Folks have given me many ideas, most of which they have no idea about! It just SEEMS like it should work. Of course once one gets down to doing it, 356 problems arise. The biggest issues are repeatability, indexing, and adjusting for size. Until one works these out, one goes no where. Appreciate your thoughts. I really like your bowl with the waves..are you making more like it? Hope so. Thanks Michelle

[Alan Zenreich]

John,

I like your hybrid idea... using the router on the lathe. It would make for very controllable and smooth cutting. Although I wasn't turning circles, I used a similar approach with a dremel to plunge cut scallops on an ebony pendant.

[Michelle Rich]

First, thanks all for the comments..2nd, the only person I know to do it with a router was a fella on another site. He saw mine & then used a $5800.00 unit from Australia. The problem for him was it was not delicate nor indexed properly. But his did do a reasonable facsimile. My car is 15 yrs old and not worth 5800.00. If you can get the plans from Harvey, and then make all the gears & stuff it would need, then go for it..I bet it would cost 1500.00 for a machinist to make it all. My method cost 1.00..maybe not the safest, but it gave all of you the basics on how to do this one piece. I would hope now that you understand the basics, you can make a safer jig in your shop. I will not return to this as I have been working with this process for 18 mos. or so, and I am totally tired of the whole thing. I have moved to a different concept, and want to enjoy that for awhile. Have fun

[Dan Hintz]

Michelle,

Make sure you share pics of pieces made during this new super duper secret process :) For me, I'll probably try something like this some day, but I'll be making a fixture of some form that is adjustable, probably similar to what I suggested earlier.

[Roland Martin]

Thanks again for the info and tutorial, and for sucking me deeper into the bottomless vortex:D:eek::eek::D!!
Of course, whenever I read a post by anyone, my mind usually goes into overdrive and get get the particular subject out of my mind. Well, I had to start playing with this negative form thing a little bit, (maybe just to prove I'm not a "wienie":D). On the bolting method, I started digging around the shop to see what I might have laying around and found a motor shaft adapter I've had for years, "voila!", I think it works great. Here are some pics of the experiment in case you may be interested. Now, don't laugh at my piece of cherry, it's only a test piece that had no direction, other than to find out if I was a wienie or not, but you can laugh anyway:D. I do have to admit, this is a SCARY thing to do and commend you for the gorgeous pieces you do.

[Rich Aldrich]

Michelle - thanks for the tutorial. This is awesome. You do really great work and it is very kind of you to share your methods. I probably wont try this right away, but will try it before the summer is out. How do you prepare your wood? Is the wood a glue up?

This must be real interesting to turn on your lathe because if I recall, the Nova 3000 does not have a VFD. Your slowest speed is probably 600 RPM?

[Michelle Rich]

Hey Roland..it looks better than the first one, two or 3 I did!! I had no one to show me, so i ran into walls and knocked my head tons of times. I'm glad to see you stayed small on your first one. SMART! Also I'm glad you were sucked into the vortex, i was kinda lonely down here!
Ok to really make one..go a tad deeper with your cuts here..then turn over & put in center and turn. If you have cole jaws, use those..you will then have the design show thru.. This one may fall apart as your 4 ovelap..if you look at mine, they don't..
Glad to see someone else being a complete, who cares about safety fool! We is not weenies!!! Good luck Roland

[Michelle Rich]

no 265 solid one piece

[Scott Hackler]

Really impressed at this point, Michelle. I went out to the shop and turned a 8" disc and went to doing one of these. I took some scrap, chucked it up , turned it like a jam chuck, drilled a hole through the middle and threaded a lag bolt into it. This was to secure the disc. First side, full circles, 1/2 depth, no big deal, looked like a trivit! Made some crosshairs with the pencil, drilled a couple holes 2" from the edges and remounted on the reverse side. I have turned a lot of air so this "propeller" didn't bother me all that much. What was difficult was getting the depth correct to create the holes from the reverse side's pattern. Finally got a few circles cut and swithed to the third hole. 2 circles in and KABOOM. Yep, she exploded.

I will likely try this process again... later... but I learned two things. First off, this ISNT my particular type of turning and secondly, Michelle has the process mastered. Hats off to you.. :)

[Michelle Rich]

Really impressed at this point, Michelle. I went out to the shop and turned a 8" disc and went to doing one of these. I took some scrap, chucked it up , turned it like a jam chuck, drilled a hole through the middle and threaded a lag bolt into it. This was to secure the disc. First side, full circles, 1/2 depth, no big deal, looked like a trivit! Made some crosshairs with the pencil, drilled a couple holes 2" from the edges and remounted on the reverse side. I have turned a lot of air so this "propeller" didn't bother me all that much. What was difficult was getting the depth correct to create the holes from the reverse side's pattern. Finally got a few circles cut and swithed to the third hole. 2 circles in and KABOOM. Yep, she exploded.

I will likely try this process again... later... but I learned two things. First off, this ISNT my particular type of turning and secondly, Michelle has the process mastered. Hats off to you.. :)

Hey Scott You are in good company with your blow-up..Hans admits he blows apart many! OK first: turn the 4 chuck side FIRST..then do the "front" ..if you own cole jaws put in there for this step.
Second: this was my $1.00 bolt method. After this I put on the biggest jaws I had for the chuck that held a bolt securely, then made a big 3/4 inch thick disk. This made for a solid platform. (if you work with metal, this could be thinner. ) I put it on the bolt as a BACK SUPPORT..then put piece on. Can't see thru any more but it was more solid. OK now you can use double stick tape and saran wrap and reg tape. Turn the 4 chuck side first, turn around and put on the bolt. Now here's a trick.using baggie ties..figure where you will cut your first row by the rim.and know where you have an opening cut in the "back" ..& drill a small hole thru your turning and thru the backboard..send baggie tie thru..cinch it up.Make all cuts from center out, until you get to the tie, and take it out. This was the 2nd method I used to keep things from sailing around the room. It worked well. But you must measure well to get that tiny hole in the right place, and not screw up your design.
As you can see by what I have posted, this is an early piece and method. But it worked and I made progress.
My intent in making these neg. space design were #1: figure out HOW, then GO BEYOND Hans & Harvey..Escargots go a-courtin' goes way past harvey, and Broken Circles & turning for gearheads goes way beyond hans. So I believe I have fulfilled my own goals.
I wish you luck..many failures is the norm..have SAFE fun..

[Lee Koepke]

Michelle,

You probably realize this ... but you seem to inspire others (a very good trait)

either by just showing your work, by getting others to think outside the box, and even getting others to TRY outside the box .... although I'd probably not attempt anything remotely like this for years .. your willingness to share, at the very least, makes ME try to think outside the box.

Thanks!!!

[Roland Martin]

Michelle, I'm assuming that the turning you show in the tutorial is substantially larger than the 6" disc I chucked up, 10" +/-? I kept it small, taking your advice, to get a feel of the off-center forces and to get a feel of the parting tool. At a 6" diameter, there is much less area to cut the grooves without overlapping each other. Now that I fooled around with this test piece, I'll try another marked with the spacing that creates a desing similar to the one you show, but with less grooves, due to the smaller size.
Thanks again!

[Michelle Rich]

Michelle,

You probably realize this ... but you seem to inspire others (a very good trait)

either by just showing your work, by getting others to think outside the box, and even getting others to TRY outside the box .... although I'd probably not attempt anything remotely like this for years .. your willingness to share, at the very least, makes ME try to think outside the box.

Thanks!!! Lee: thank you so much for this post. I did not know I inspired others. Mostly it seems I piss folks off! :-)
It's very hard with dial-up to show pictures and long posts to share stuff with folks. this little tutorial , tho without a tons of pictures, seems to have a positive effect on folks at SMC..I'm glad for that. If you do this, be safe, take safety precautions and please share with us.
Again, your post has brightened my day. Thank you

[Michelle Rich]

you are welcome..read a post I sent in this morning about a backing plate with Scott's posting...good luck, and please keep me in the loop of your trials

[Michelle Rich]

scott: I replied to this this morning, and a few hours later I can't find the post...basically what I said was: My 2nd attempt at this I made a backing board..3/4 inch thick, and put on the bolt..now the disc you are turning has a back ..you can use double stick tape ( also used my biggest jaws so that kept the wood steady) Turn the 4 chuck side FIRST..then turn around and do the "front"..this will help your explosions problem. But I must relate that hans says he still blows them up..so you are in good company. Now a trick to steady this more..plastic baggies ties..When you get your 4 turned, figure where your 4 will have an opening on your front where your last outside opening will be (measure well) ..drill a tiny hole thru the turning & the backplate, and use the tie. This really helps on some pieces. Or at least it's great psychologicallY! I use saran wrap..double stick tape & whatever will help. In truth when I turn the piece around i am using cole jaws,for the 'front " side.
I hope this helps..turn safely and if you chose I would enjoy seeing your efforts.