What over water based dye?

[keith ouellette]

I am going to use a water based trans tint for the initial coat on Oak. After that I am also going to make a toner for the finish coat.

I am mixing the dye with water so what would I spray over that and should I put a clear coat on first before I spray on the tinted coat of finish?

[John TenEyck]

I generally spray a coat of Sealcoat shellac on after the dye has dried. Sealcoat is compatible with just about any topcoat. It's important to spray it on, since the alcohol in it will lift some of the dye if you brush it on. Also, I often put toners (Transtint, actually) in Sealcoat, and layer it up to get the color I want, and then put on the final finish w/o toner. I think it gives greater depth to the finish this way, but you could put your toner in your finish coat as well, as long as the toner is compatible with it.

[keith ouellette]

So I can dye the sealcoat to make a toner. Right? Is Sealcoat a brand name and could I use any clear shellac? Can I apply the toner right after the dye or should I spray a clear coat on first?

[Casey Gooding]

Yes, you can tint the shellac. You can use any shellac, but Sealcoat is a brand name. It's made by Zinsser and is available at home centers or paint stores. I would spray a coat of clear before spraying the toner. Others might do it differently.

[Steve Schoene]

If you are using TransTint you should be aware that it is not a waterbased dye but a multisolvent dye--it dissolves in water, alcohol, and lacquer thinnner. Consequently, any topcoat material can lift the dye into the topcoat. That's not a problem with sprayed finishes, as long as you make the first coat relatively dry. With brushed or padded on topcoat materials you could have a problem. Zinsser aerosol cans would work for the spraying and are dewaxed shellac.

Question: why the dye toner? The dye won't blotch on oak, and the one potential problem with dying oak, that the pores resist the dye, leaving them light, won't be solved with dye toner unless you really apply heavy coloration. I think you should seriously consider sealing the dye lightly with sprayed dewax shellac and then use a pigmented stain which over the sealed wood will lodge mostly in the pores, effectively dealing with the issue of pores that didn't accept dye. If you use a pigment stain (gel stain works) that is either slightly lighter or slightly darker (the more usual choice) than the dyed wood, you will give a greater sense of depth to the finish. If you plan pore filler, you could tint that and use it in exactly the same way. Then you can topcoat with a clear topcoat.

[Prashun Patel]

The experts have spoken, but I'll ask this:

What color are you doing? What is your topcoat?

If you are doing a dark color, I submit that your easiest approach is to use a pigment stain on the raw, prepped oak. Pigment stains can lodge in the pores of oak. For light colors, this can create a big difference in the color of the pores vs the rest of the wood. For darker colors, this is not such an issue (in my experience).

If you want to use dye, then regardless of whether you use a pigment stain or a toner to sneak up on the color and fill out the pores, I'd still shoot it after dye with thinned shellac. If you are using a waterbased topcoat or oil based polyurethane, then that shellac should be dewaxed. Sealcoat is dewaxed. Also beware that if you are spraying Target EM6000, I've heard anecdotes of people who've had trouble over Sealcoat. This is not FACT, I'm just saying look into it on the Target website.

[Steve Schoene]

If you use a pigment stain directly on bare oak it will lodge in the pores alright, but between the pores, it will be just lodging in the sanding scratches giving a muddy look compared to using a dye. Achieving really dark over all look is limited with a pigment only stain. But with dye you can get as dark as you want, and, except for the possiblity of having pores that don't take dye (it depends on the particular two, is common but isn't universal with oak) the color will be even without the dramatic contrast between the pores and the surface. You then can control how much you high light the grain in choosing how much the surface will be sealed and what colored pigmnented stain you use to fill pores and other unsealed areas. The two step approach gives dramatically more control over the process and hence it is easier to get a really nice looking finish than trying to get it all from one can.

[Prashun Patel]

Steve, you are the expert, and Keith, if I were in YOUR shoes, I'd listen to him over me.

But I CAN share my own experience on oak. Granted, it's only about 5-6 projects. But ALL have been minwax or ZAR pigment stain right on the oak. One was mahogany, one was charcoal, the rest were lighter. In all cases, the results were great. I did not notice any adverse effects with scratches, pores, or muddiness.

Just my 2 cents.

[Steve Schoene]

Oak is easy--lots of products do work. Minwax stains with few exceptions combine both pigment and dye. The dye may let them achieve a dark color on oak, and be just fine because oak doesn't blotch. I think Zar stains do this also. I just prefer the control that separating the dye and pigment steps. I usually mix my own stains anyway to get the pigment only stains without having them be gel stains.

[keith ouellette]

Ok; Al lot of stuff here to talk about .
The reason I want to use a toner is 2 fold. First I want to be able to even the color out as much as possible and second It is something I want to practice with. I thought toners were commonly used and I want to learn about it.

I have tested a number of sanded scraps and have not found a problem with the pores not excepting dye. I sure hope the piece I'm working on comes out the same as the scraps.

The other reason I want to use the toner is I don't like the way the heavy grain on oak gets much darker. I read in one of the pages about trans tints that it is recomended t use a wash coat on oak because of this reason. it is something I have come to use on may things I finish but it also makes the dye lighter than I want so the toner will let me darken it up a little. this may be achievable with other methods like Steve said to use but my products had been purchased and the "dye" is cast.

I can't wait to show everyone how it comes out. Good or bad you'll all see the results. And thanks for the great tips.

[Scott Holmes]

Keith,

you do plan to SPRAY the toner correct?

Toners can produce beautiful even "tone" If they are sprayed... using a brush is a real challenge.

[keith ouellette]

The wash coat is on and drying. Next is the dye. I hate this part. makes me nervous.

[Steve Schoene]

I hope your wash coat is on a good size piece of scrap. Then you can work through the rest of the finishing process to see how it comes out before touching the project. Advise that applies to diffuse porous woods may not be applicable at all to ring porous wood such as oak.

The wash coat won't be of benefit on oak. In fact if there are any variations in how much the wood is sealed it can increase blotching. Dye, directly on the oak will have almost no blotching on oak, moreover it won't really cause the grain to darken dramatically like a pigment stain would likely do. Oak and other ring porous woods like mahogany or walnut don't have a blotch problem.

On maple or cherry, both ring porous woods you might want that light wash coat under dye. These woods blotch easily.

Blotching tendancy on diffuse porous woods is a major reason why toners are commonly used. The other reason for such widespread use of toners, both dye and pigmented, is to match mismatched wood by obscuring differences. When amateurs take care to match woods they have the opportunity to achieve much superior finishes to those applied by factories. For this second reason using toners is just a commercial expediency. Amateur finishers can easily out perform factory finishes.

Dye is about the easiest material to apply by hand and get right of them all. The only secret is to flood it on, working from the bottom up. I use a sponge. The idea is that if any dye drips or runs it goes on to wood already saturated with dye. It can be wiped right off with the sponge with no ill effect. After the surface as all been soaked, I go back with the wrung out sponge and make sure there aren't puddles. Dye looks like s*** after it dries but before a top coat has been applied. It's truer color is closer to how it looks wet than how is looks when it dries.

[Prashun Patel]

Keith- Power to ya! I work the same way you do: sometimes it's just for the learning and to develop another skill.

I will also add that if you are setting up to spray the sealing coat and the toner, then you might want to spray the dye too. I did this once and was pleasantly surprised with how easy and controllable it was. I diluted the transtint in DNA, though - not water. This also had the nice effect of not raising the grain.


Steve, I didn't realize Minwax were a combo of pigment and dye stain! Thanks for your great explanations -- again.

[keith ouellette]

Scott H.: Yes. I am spraying. My first attempt at a toner was on the tv stand in my family room. I wiped and brushed and it took forever to get the finish even close to what i wanted.
Prashun: Thanks for the boost. I was was going to try spraying the dye but at the last minute decided not to. I just thought wiping the water based dye would be safer. I do plan on spraying it next time.
Steve S: You save my project from the dumpster. Ok maybe not that drastic but when I finished with the dye I hated it. I though 'All that hard work to try and build it as perfect as I could and now it looks like crap!'
Then I cam in and read your last reply, The second to last sentence to be exact. I was ready to just give up. It was super late and I was very tired and just hated to world because of the way that dye looked but then I read your reply and went to bed with a little hope.

The first coat of toner is on and it looks so much better. I don't think I'll be throwing it away after all.

[keith ouellette]

Up date. I got a very nice and even color. its a shame its much darker than I wanted. to get it all even I darkened the toner a touch (and a touch to much at that). Still looks very nice but just dark.

My original plan was to use a toner that was a tiny bit lighter than the dye finish so as to not darken it up to much but I had some dyed areas than ended up being too light so it was really my only option.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm sure it looks great, Keith.
The thing about dye is how it looks WET is how it'll look when topcoated, which is clearer and darker than how it looks when it dries without a topcoat.

The pros always tell us to use good sized test boards - through the whole schedule. I have to admit, I rarely test as much as I should. But if you're trying for a target, then it's really imperative to test completely. I'll try to follow that advice myself next time

[Scott Holmes]

Steve,

On maple or cherry, both ring porous woods you might want that light wash coat under dye. These woods blotch easily.

I believe you meant to say as shown below...

On maple or cherry, both (delete - ring) DEFUSE porous woods you might want that light wash coat under dye. These woods blotch easily.

[Scott Holmes]

Appliing a light colored toner over a dark dye doesn't look right to my eye. I use the lighter color first then the darker.

Keith did you seal the dye with a light spray coat of de-waxed shellac before you used the toner? Toners are best applied BETWEEN clear coats. This gives you the option of removing it if it gets messed up... if it's on dyed wood you can't wipe it off; on a sealed surface you can wipe it off.

[keith ouellette]

Appliing a light colored toner over a dark dye doesn't look right to my eye. I use the lighter color first then the darker.

Keith did you seal the dye with a light spray coat of de-waxed shellac before you used the toner? Toners are best applied BETWEEN clear coats. This gives you the option of removing it if it gets messed up... if it's on dyed wood you can't wipe it off; on a sealed surface you can wipe it off.

No. I put it on right over the dye but I really like that idea. Next time I am going to do that. I am posting pictures of the project now.