Dimensioning rough cut

[David Peterson]

A local sawmill has set aside a really nice ash log for me. I've never had a log cut up for use before and now have to tell them how I would like it sliced and diced. I'm interested in having it quartersawn. It will be a workbench in the faraway future - air dried until 2015, I suppose - and I'm curious to know: how much thickness will be lost when I get to the process of flattening and preparing the stock?

If I want finished lumber that will be 8/4, say, should I have the mill saw the log at 10/4, or more, to allow for shrinkage, warpage, or mistakes I'll invariably make?

Another question about this process. The mill is looking to get $1.50/bf for this job. I have no way of knowing if that's a right price. It's a small mill. I'd like to use them because they're a local business.

[Philip Rodriquez]

10/4 is good number to shoot for. However, a 3/4" bow from end-to-end can ruin your goal when you start to S4S it down the road.

[Richard Coers]

Air drying ash can become a picnic for powder post beetles. You will have to research the pesticide. I think it is a borate based something or other, maybe called Timbor? Make sure there is no bark on the edges, and limit sapwood. The little buggers love fresh sapwood. Your thickness spec will depend on how wide the stock is cut. If you get 12" wide boards, you would want a min of 3/8 for cleanup.

[Matt Day]

Personally I'd never be able to wait that long for air dried lumber. Do they have a kiln or can you find one? Or maybe go the DIY route and build a solar kiln yourself?

[John TenEyck]

I've never any trouble with beetles when drying ash. I paint the ends of the log before I cut it, and sticker it like normal on top of 4 x 4's which sit on top of cement blocks so that air can get underneath as well as all around. 3/8" overage should be plenty if they saw it flat and true, and the tree grew straight. $1.50/bf seems really steep to me since they are cutting it 10/4 or so. There's a whole lot of BF between those cuts. I think anything over $1/bf is too high, and would try to negotiate to something more like $0.75/bf. Afterall, it could have all kinds of defects inside, and it's green. How are you going to transport and handle 10/4 green ash? That stuff is really, really heavy. If you do go ahead with it, make sure you have your drying location prepped and the base and stickers all ready when you get it home. You need to sticker and cover it ASAP after cutting, within hours not days. Good luck.

[David Peterson]

Well, this is all part of a great experiment and these comments have all been really helpful. I have already converted an old shed on the property to be something like a solar kiln. The sawmill is located in a small town nearby in upstate New York. It's been there for decades but has been struggling for a while now. Even the guy who runs it said his price was higher than I might find elsewhere, but that elsewhere isn't very close. There may be some room in there to come down in price. Even so, I'm fine to overpay a bit to help him out. And he'll deliver to my place, just a few miles away, and help me stack it in place. Interesting comment about getting it stacked so quickly after it's been cut. I'm learning already.

[James White]

$1.50 for the labor and material is a killer price! However if it is just labor then it is darn high. How much is he charging for the log?

James

[Andrew Gibson]

I am Interested to hear what the estimated board footage is on the log and what the end estimate is for everything. If he is going to deliver and help stack and such I think $1.50 is not a terrible price... especially if he is a knowledgeable person, but definitely not a great deal either.

I would definitely look into the pesticides like Richard mentioned. It would kill me to find out a couple years down the road that bugs got into my lumber and destroyed it, and all it would have taken was $10 worth of bug spray to prevent it.

Part of me keeps yelling 12/4, 12/4, 12/4!!! only because that would make an awesome bench... how much more awesome then 10/2, I don't know. I guess it depends on the size of the log.


Ooh we also want pics of the milling and the stack and all. We also want to know all the things you learn in the process... at least I do

[Prashun Patel]

If you Anchorseal the cut ends and sticker properly, the weight should keep it pretty straight. Quartersawn ash is pretty stable in my experience.

10/4 can take a long time to dry though. I'd have it kiln dried if possible.

Also, remember that if you are doing a glued up bench, then you will be able to pull slight bows out of individual boards as they are added to the lamination.

[David Peterson]

Thanks Prashun. Anchorseal - check, stickers and all. I had hoped that quartersawn would be more stable as it dried. That hope was based on nothing more than,,,well, hope! Certainly not experience from my end. I really don't know what I'm doing but in the future I'll come to know what I've done. That's the experience part. You guys are amazing with the collective knowledge you all have to offer. Invaluable resource!

I had a talk with my guy again - the $1.50 b/f includes the price of the log, cut up and delivered to my place on a truck along with his help stacking. I don't know lumber prices that well but it seems pretty reasonable. We're meeting again next week (he's upstate - I only get my woodworking fix on long weekends) because I had asked him to show me how he was cutting the thing. It's a two man operation so he gladly accepted my request to be around to help when he does the work. Just being around the yard is a kid-in-a-candy store kind of fun. There are so many in this forum that don't find this any kind of novelty but it is for me.

I'll ask him about our area and the pesticide. I would hate to go through this process and, as you say Andrew, end up with buggy firewood. As far as the drying time is concerned, I already work at my great-grandfather's workbench, a tried and true woodworker's bench, so I only have future plans to build its mate. There's no rush at all.

[Prashun Patel]

David-
One caveat: I'm a hobbyist only. I base my comment on drying qs ash only on the logic that if qs wood is more stable than flatsawn when dry, it ought to be when drying as well. I also base my comments on the anchorseal on drying bowl blanks. When the end grain is covered in this wax emulsion, it slows - but doesn't stop - the fast preferential loss there. This helps to reduce cracking.

The other key to drying green wood is minimizing - but again not eliminating - air flow. So, you should cover it - but yr guy will tell you how to do it.

Also, FWIW, I think 1.50/bf for qs anything is a pretty good deal. Hope you have fun.

[John TenEyck]

The other key to drying green wood is minimizing - but again not eliminating - air flow. So, you should cover it - but yr guy will tell you how to do it.



NO, NO, NO. Do not cover the sides or ends of the stickered stack. Only put some corrugated on top, or something similar, to keep the rain off. If you cover the sides you'll have the perfect environment for mold growth. You need air to freely flow through the stack, especially early in the process, to prevent mold growth. The best place to make a stack is under an open shed roof. If you do it outside like I do, put it somewhere where it doesn't get direct sunlight but gets good airflow. The worst place is inside an enclosed building - unless it's a kiln.

[Danny Hamsley]

Timbor is a borate product labeled for insecticide use. However, there is another product that contains the exact same ingredient, disodium octoborate tetrahydrate, called Beau-Ron D that is labeled for agricultural use as a source of boron, a micronutrient. Beau-Ron D costs a lot less than Timbor but is basically the same stuff. You might check with an Ag chemical supplier in your area and save some $. Mix one pound in one gallon of water. I use a backpack sprayer to treat lumber, but any way you look at it, it is a real pain and I hate to do it. But on some woods like pecan, hickory, and ash, at least here in the South, you have to treat with borate or the PPB's will get in it if you leave it stored outside in a shed or barn for any length of time.

$1.50 for ash sawn, delivered, and stacked is a good deal in my book. Typically, hardwood is sawn 1/8" over nominal, so if I was cutting 8/4 ash, the thickness would be 2 & 1/8". 4/4 would be 1 & 1/8".

[David Peterson]

Prashun, I'm in the same mode - hobbyist.
I'll just follow my guiding principle: "What could possibly go wrong?!"

[Larry Edgerton]

I just sawed up two large ash off of my property. EAB had got them this year, so it was now or firewood. These were large trees, my 24" bar would not go to the middle of one, and I came up with 1000 ft sawn.

When you are stickering keep your stickers out as far as you can to the ends. The wood will split to the sticker. Ash air dries fairly fast, but the thicker it is of course the longer it takes. Its important with ash to get it sawn as fast as possible after being felled. Checking in the log happens very fast. I felled mine and sawed it the next day. If you wait too long the log is junk. Use dry stickers. If you don't you will get sticker stain, a problem with ash.

Have fun with it........

I just checked. Ash is currently $2880 a thousand at the 1000 ft price, kiln dried.

[Randy Bonella]

Hi David,
I'm a hobbyest also and just finished building a bench from rough sawn Doug Fir. And for building something along the size of a bench I'm not sure I'd sweat the rough wood dimensions so much. Depending on bench style Thicker may be better and easier. Each of my boards were different thickness and I S4S'd and lived with the final dimensions, especially for the top lamination. As for more critical dimensions I let the wood dictate what my final dimensioned assembly would be. I did it this way as all my prep was done by hand tools and I wasn't in the mood nor did I have the time to get them all in perfect dimensions. With that said most of my lumber was between 8/4 and 10/4 rough cut and ended up 6/4 to 8/4 final.

Glad to hear you helping out a local tradesman.

Randy...