window sash

[greg Forster]

when running the moldings on muntin bars is one side with the grain and one side against the grain?

[Kevin Lucas]

It seems to be that way. I looked at a woodwrights video and he mentions chatter from cross grain. http://video.unctv.org/video/1427712894

[Mike Siemsen]

It is best to use straight grain wood with no run out, stronger and easy to plane, there isn't much wood there.
Mike

[greg Forster]

Thanks Kevin and Mike. I'd forgotten about the video; went back and reviewed it. My thoughts on sash planes #1 and #2,; these weren't to take a roughing cut and a finish cut. This is the explamation I've heard time and again over 25 years and never made alot of sense to me- trying to track a second plane on the same profile. I think the planes were set up to work with the grain cuts- allows a coaser cut, quicker, but still yielding a good finish; and against the grain cuts' set finer to yield an acceptable finish, albeit at a slower pace - remember, for the most part we are dealing with interior trim work which will be painted, not fine cabinet woods.

To hi-jack my own thread, Mike anymore thoughts on the 18thc style chisels you made?

[Zach Dillinger]

It is best to use straight grain wood with no run out, stronger and easy to plane, there isn't much wood there.
Mike

What Mike said. I make lots of window sash by hand and stock selection is key. I prefer reclaimed eastern white pine for my sash.

[Pam Niedermayer]

when running the moldings on muntin bars is one side with the grain and one side against the grain?

I'm not sure I understand this question. When I make shoji, all the cross bars are cut long grain. So what is "one side?" Of what?

Pam

[Larry Williams]

Thanks Kevin and Mike. I'd forgotten about the video; went back and reviewed it. My thoughts on sash planes #1 and #2,; these weren't to take a roughing cut and a finish cut. This is the explamation I've heard time and again over 25 years and never made alot of sense to me- trying to track a second plane on the same profile. I think the planes were set up to work with the grain cuts- allows a coaser cut, quicker, but still yielding a good finish; and against the grain cuts' set finer to yield an acceptable finish, albeit at a slower pace - remember, for the most part we are dealing with interior trim work which will be painted, not fine cabinet woods.

To hi-jack my own thread, Mike anymore thoughts on the 18thc style chisels you made?

Greg,

If that were the case, I'd expect the #1 and #2 to have different bed angles. I've only seen one pair that looked to be originally paired where one had a different bed angle than the other. I've looked at quite a number of pairs and asked a lot of knowledgeable people if they know of pairs with different bed angles. It doesn't appear to have been the common practice.

[Zach Dillinger]

I'm not sure I understand this question. When I make shoji, all the cross bars are cut long grain. So what is "one side?" Of what?

Pam

Pam,

When you make muntins for windows, you stick a molding on both sides of a thin piece. Because you reference one face only (you run the fence of your plane on it), you flip the stock end for end when you plane the other molding. So, when you plane one side, you are planing with the grain, when you flip it over you are planing against the grain.


Greg,

If that were the case, I'd expect the #1 and #2 to have different bed angles. I've only seen one pair that looked to be originally paired where one had a different bed angle than the other. I've looked at quite a number of pairs and asked a lot of knowledgeable people if they know of pairs with different bed angles. It doesn't appear to have been the common practice.

Just another data point here, Larry. My favorite pair of sash planes is a 5/8 set made by D. Malloch of Perth. This is a #1 and #2 pair, both with the same owner stamp, in identical condition, so I feel safe in saying that they are an original matched pair. Both the 1 and 2 planes have their irons bedded at 50 degrees, no difference at all between the two numbers.

[Patrick Tipton]

I am with Pam - confused.

All of the profiles are cut with the grain. If you select your stock well, the grain is oriented parallel to your planing, so there isn't a better side. In practice, sometimes one side will plane better than the other, but if the blade is sharp and not set too aggressive, you should end up with a nice profile.

The only place you could plane across the grain is with the M&T joints. Sash makers used a coping plane that was basically a reverse of main sash profile to help form the ends of the muntins.

Regards, Patrick

[Zach Dillinger]

I am with Pam - confused.

All of the profiles are cut with the grain. If you select your stock well, the grain is oriented parallel to your planing, so there isn't a better side. In practice, sometimes one side will plane better than the other, but if the blade is sharp and not set too aggressive, you should end up with a nice profile.

The only place you could plane across the grain is with the M&T joints. Sash makers used a coping plane that was basically a reverse of main sash profile to help form the ends of the muntins.

Regards, Patrick

Patrick,

You are correct. As a sashmaker, my stock selection is key to success. I don't believe he is insinuating that you are planing across the grain, as in tenon work, but just against the grain if you have runout.

[Jim Koepke]

Watching the video was interesting. It did bring up at least on question. He calls the gouge he uses an out cannel gouge, but the bevel is on the inside. Did he error or have I had it wrong all this time?

On the making of the shape, it looks very easy with all the planes he has at his disposal.

The Stanley 45 or 55 can use a #1 sash cutter and #2 reverse sash cutter to make all the cuts with just the two blades. If the grain is cooperative you can get by with just one of the blades.

jtk

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam,

When you make muntins for windows, you stick a molding on both sides of a thin piece. Because you reference one face only (you run the fence of your plane on it), you flip the stock end for end when you plane the other molding. So, when you plane one side, you are planing with the grain, when you flip it over you are planing against the grain....

So you'd call these Krenov sashes?

Never mind, I misunderstood, all cleared up after watching the video. Thanks.

Pam

[Don McConnell]

Hi Greg,

The short answer to your question is no. As others have mentioned, stock selection is important, but as long as the pieces do not have grain reversals, one can organize the work in such a way that all of the planing is done with the grain. This assumes traditional tools and appliances, including a proper sash sticking board, a sash fillister and the necessary sash plane.

I posted about a traditional sash sticking board a while back in another thread, and here is a link to that thread (my post is on page 2):

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?151993-Workholding-for-use-with-a-Molding-Plane

While I don't stress it in that post, one advantage of this type of sticking board is that both the rabbet (using the sash fillister) and the profile on each side can be run in the same direction. And, even if there is a little grain run-out, you can select and orient the piece so that you are planing with the grain for each of them. Then, when you flip the piece end-for-end, as needed, you will still be planing with the grain. I realize Roy said the opposite, but the fact that he found he was planing against the grain for both rabbets (the second after flipping the piece end-for-end) actually demonstrates my point.

As to pairs of sash planes, there aren't many early discussions of them, but the few 19th century mentions I've found are consistent with the idea that one was the work horse and was used to get the profile close, while the second one was reserved for the final cuts. And the wear pattern of existing pairs is consistent with this approach. Though these sources don't touch on this, I think this allowed all of the profiles, for one sash, at least, to be finished with one plane without it having to be adjusted and/or sharpened for the duration. This would have helped all of the profiles in that sash to match exactly.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR