saw sharpening question

[Matt Ranum]

I'm in the process of rehabbing an older crosscut saw for my FIL. Took off the rust, wet sanded through 600 and got the blade cleaned up nice, well decent anyway. Jointed, reshaped the teeth, set the teeth, jointed again and then sharpened. Cuts nice and clean and tracks true but I get a fair amount of "whipping" in the tip on the back stroke and it feels tight in the cut. Would I need a little more set in this case? I am still able to "steer" the saw somewhat and I did wax the blade and it helped a lot but still tight.
:confused:

[Chris Fournier]

Is your blade tapered from the teeth to the spine? Thicker at teeth and thinner at spine?

[Matt Ranum]

Not noticeably. Its a late 50's early 60's vintage Disston.

[Jim Koepke]

By whipping, if you mean rattling, one thing I have read suggest that it is caused by too much set. The problem with that is in some woods you get swelling while it is being cut. So, at the cut you have too much set but above the cut the kerf is closing.

I get a lot of rattle on some saws with some woods. I just live with it.

jtk

[Chris Fournier]

I've always thought that the manufacturer made them rattle so that you knew that if you got too close you'd get bit!

I think that Jim is on the money with his post. I would rather deal with the whipping than binding any day. This being said you can continue to tweak the set until you find a happy compromise.

[george wilson]

I also think you have too much set. I had a rip saw that sawed just horribly until I reduced the amount of set(I bought it that way). The saw sawed sweetly after that.

[Matt Ranum]

I couldn't think of the right term before but "rattling" is what I meant by "whipping". Maybe I have to much set. What is the best way to go about reducing it? Hone the sides with a slip stone?

Did some looking and I was wrong on the vintage too. Its a 1935 Keystone K-4 Air Master made by Disston.

[Jim Koepke]

Matt, do you have a way to measure the set? I use a dial caliper to check the plate thickness and then check the thickness at the tips of the teeth. Half the difference is how much the teeth are set.

Since it is something that I have experienced all my life, it never occurred to me to figure out what causes the noise.

It could be something as simple as resonance set up by the teeth hitting the sides of the kerf on the back stroke.

jtk

[Matt Ranum]

Jim I can check it with a caliper later this evening, but I was thinking if the set is to wide, why then would it still feel "tight" in the cut? I have another saw here I've done recently that cuts real nice maybe I'll compare the set between the two. I used a Miller Falls set this time, first time I've used it, I used my Dunlap on the last couple I've done.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim I can check it with a caliper later this evening, but I was thinking if the set is to wide, why then would it still feel "tight" in the cut? I have another saw here I've done recently that cuts real nice maybe I'll compare the set between the two. I used a Miller Falls set this time, first time I've used it, I used my Dunlap on the last couple I've done.

The tightness could be due to the wood. What kind of wood is being cut and is it fully dry?

Also, some saw sets will only set the tip of the tooth. Other saw sets can bow into the saw plate. The saw plate above the teeth should not be rubbing the side of the kerf.

Beyond this, I will have to spend some time looking at my saws and a few sites on the internet like the norsewoodsmith.com to see if more can be found.

Here is one place to start:

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/hand-saw-basics

jtk

[george wilson]

I use a smooth jawed machinist's vise(which I sometimes have to get by grinding off those harmful diamond teeth!!!). I clamp the saw teeth successively all the way down the blade by just swinging the handle up the same amount,loosen,feed more teeth in,swing handle up,etc. It takes just a little skill to evenly squeeze an even amount of less set into the teeth. Be sure some of the teeth don't get missed by letting them go into the screw holes in the vise.

[john brenton]

I find my block of canning wax getting used more and more. Not sure if there are any negative effects from it on the wood when it comes time for finish...I haven't seen any as of yet...but I regularly add it to my saws while sawing, and my planes while planing. The wax may fix your rattling problem. In fact, a little wax may be good for the end grain when it comes time for finish.

[Matt Ranum]

After analyzing the saw again last night and taking some measurements I discovered I needed to give more set to the saw. After giving it a little more set the problems went away and it cuts real nice with no drift. I tried it on a few different pieces of wood with good results. Cut a 1x12 Oak rough cut in under 30 seconds, didn't think that was to bad for a guy who doesn't have much hand saw experience.:D

I may have screwed up though by only using 5* rake angle. It cuts good so maybe I'll leave and put a steeper rake angle on the next one and compare the two.

[Jim Koepke]

I may have screwed up though by only using 5* rake angle. It cuts good so maybe I'll leave and put a steeper rake angle on the next one and compare the two.

5° is pretty steep for a cross cut saw. Possibly you meant more moderate rake angle.

If it is not hard to start, then you are likely OK. A few other things that a steep angle might cause is a rough edge on the cut.

Thinking about this today while I was doing some cutting on some 1X12. With my knee on the saw bench I tended to pull the saw to the left a little and would get the rattle. If I had both feet on the ground, the saw wasn't stressed and was not going into rattle mode.

Picked that up from reading the Norse Wood Smith last night.

jtk

[Terry Beadle]

One other thing you can use to reduce set is cut a small 3 inch block ( 8 qtr about 1 1/4 square ) of rock maple ( or other tight grained hardwood ) and use the end grain end to litely tap on the teeth.

I like George's idea to use a smoothed jawed vice too. Maybe make some rock maple covers for the jaws instead of grinding them flat. The vice will squeeze both sides of the set where as the wooden block can be used via the lite taps to just adjust one side of the saw. It may be my wishful thinking on this but it seems to work for me and lite strokes only bend one side at a time. Of course a hard stroke will bend both sides.