Lidded Hollow Form vs Lidded Box

[Greg Ketell]

This morning I checked out the forum and ..

This was posted as a "Lidded Box":
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=190934&d=1302435384

This was posted as a "Hollow Form":
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=190942&d=1302436785

So, I have my thoughts on what defines a "box" vs a "bowl" or "hollow form" but it isn't agreeing with what people are posting here on SMC. Can you all help me to understand the difference?? How do YOU define each of the above??

GK

[Tim Thiebaut]

Hii Greg, I read a post somewhere around here, I have no idea where now, but it stated that the AAW had commented that a HF has an opening that was a good deal smaller then the smallest part of the body, or something to that effect I am just going from memory here. It also went on to say that the AAW purposly left the definition lose to cover a huge range of turnings. Either way to me it is just words, my pieces are what they are, the name makes no difference to me. I was a little unsure what to call the walnut one but went with what I have seen posted here in the past. I am curious what your thoughts are on this, and others as well.

From the AAW - Hollowform- The opening is equal to or less than the foot diameter. Hollowed to consistent wall thickness.

[Curt Fuller]

In my case it could be as simple as the term that comes to mind while typing the description. In my own way of thinking I see a hollowform as something that comes near to full sphere on the shape, having an actual top side to it and an opening significantly smaller than the overall form, and made with the intent of being less functional and more artful. A box would usually be something smaller with an opening close to the same diameter as the overall form and made with the intent of actually keeping something protected in it beneath a lid. A bowl is usually a larger form with the opening being the widest point and made with the intent of being somewhat functional as a serving or eating utensil but still functional even if the only intended function is to show off a beautiful piece of wood. Of course there are many exceptions to the rules and enough exceptions to the exceptions to end up with no real rules at all.

[John Keeton]

I think the turner determines the nomenclature. But, having said that, to me a HF denotes a more closed form that could not be accomplished with gouges and scrapers - i.e., requires some form of hollowing tool/tools.

[Greg Ketell]

Here is what I perceive as the differences between the different forms:

Bowl: a turning that is wider than tall and the opening is the widest portion of the turning. Lids, if any, sit on or in and are held in place by gravity.
Vase/Cup: a turning that is taller than it is wide and the opening is the widest portion of the turning. Difference between vase and cup is matter of scale.
Hollow form: a turning that has an opening smaller than the rest of the turning. I think AAW is saying 1/3 as big, but I think if it is "partially closed" it is a HF.
Box: a turning designed to hold an object that you can easily remove (so not a HF shape), bottom often flat, always lidded and the lid fits on the outside of the main turning and is a snug fit (ie you have to work to take the lid off). Usually a "one handed" item so you can hold it to remove the lid.


That is my interpretation. I'd love to know everyone else's!

[James Combs]

I like Greg's definition and will be using it on any of my future turnings.:D

[Frank Van Atta]

Here is what I perceive as the differences between the different forms:


Bowl: a turning that is wider than tall and the opening is the widest portion of the turning. Lids, if any, sit on or in and are held in place by gravity.
Vase/Cup: a turning that is taller than it is wide and the opening is the widest portion of the turning. Difference between vase and cup is matter of scale.
Hollow form: a turning that has an opening smaller than the rest of the turning. I think AAW is saying 1/3 as big, but I think if it is "partially closed" it is a HF.
Box: a turning designed to hold an object that you can easily remove (so not a HF shape), bottom often flat, always lidded and the lid fits on the outside of the main turning and is a snug fit (ie you have to work to take the lid off). Usually a "one handed" item so you can hold it to remove the lid.



That is my interpretation. I'd love to know everyone else's!

I think these are too restrictive. For example, the picture below is definitely a bowl - what is sometimes referred to as a "closed form" - but does not fit within your definition because the opening is not the widest portion of the turning.
191312
So the bowl definition needs to be modified to indicate that the opening should be as large as the base or larger - when it is smaller you are getting into the realm of the hollow form, although the exact demarcation line may sometimes be difficult to define.

This same condition also applies to vases and cups (and goblets, for that matter) - if the height of the piece shown is increased until it is greater than the width, it becomes a vase (or a cup, depending on size).

In addition, the opening in a vase may be considerably smaller than the base and still not qualify the piece as a hollow form. For example:
191321
Definitely a vase, not a hollow form. A further distinction here is between a regular vase and a "bud vase" - the former is usually hollowed to uniform thickness in the bottom portion with walls of equal thickness, while the latter has a simple vertical hole drilled from top to bottom.

As to boxes, I think the "easily removed" part is viable, but it applies only to the inside of the piece, not the exterior shape. For example, if the bowl shown above had vertical interior sides and a lid while retaining the same exterior shape it could certainly qualify as a box.

As for boxes themselves, nothing says the lid has to fit on the outside of the main turning, and I'm not sure than "snug fit" is a requirement either.

It seems that the more we attempt to define turnings the more we muddy the waters. And we haven't even looked into the realm of the plate/platter debate.

After an exhaustive discussion of this subject on another forum, one turner finally said, "I know one (vase/bowl/plate/HF/platter/whatever) when I see it."

'Nuf said.

[Bernie Weishapl]

So are the lidded canisters for flour, sugar, coffee and tea I am working on are then classified as lidded boxes??? Just curious. I think what one calls a piece is in the eye of the beholder or the turner.

[John Hart]

This is a box
191329

:o Just trying to contribute.

[David DeCristoforo]

It's all so confusing... This is why I started calling my turnings things like "cup like thing on a stick". Where does a pedestal leave off and a stem begin??? When does a "knob" become a "finial"??? Where is the line between a "cup" and a "bowl"??? Or a "lid" and a "collar"??? Why is John Hart building a giant lathe? These are questions that can only be answered by "celestial god beings". We mere mortals are forever condemned to be arguing about them!

[John Hart]

....Why is John Hart building a giant lathe?....

Like Roger said...I'm compensating for something.

[Wally Dickerman]

Okay, here's a maple bowl, 11 inches high, or is it a hollow form? If I added a lid would it be a box or a lidded bowl or a lidded vessel or a lidded hollowform?

Too many variables here.:rolleyes:

[Frank Van Atta]

Okay, here's a maple bowl, 11 inches high, or is it a hollow form? If I added a lid would it be a box or a lidded bowl or a lidded vessel or a lidded hollowform?

Too many variables here.:rolleyes:

Looks like a vase to me.

[Dick Wilson]

Okay, here's a maple bowl, 11 inches high, or is it a hollow form? If I added a lid would it be a box or a lidded bowl or a lidded vessel or a lidded hollowform?

Too many variables here.:rolleyes:

Wally, I would classify your turning as a closed form because the curve closes in on itself. I would classify a turning that you can only put a couple of fingers in a hollow form. That is just me;)

[Steve Vaughan]

uh-oh. it's like back to the art vs. craft thing.

[David DeCristoforo]

Bowl (or "Open Form"): An unarguably useful container that may or may not be attractive for any other reason.

Closed Form: A bowl that is still useful but less so due to it's constricted opening. For example, not as many hands could reach in for popcorn at the same time.

Hollow Form: A shape that is less than useful since the maker was more concerned is seeing how small a hole he could dig the guts of a log out through. Not completely useless because one could still get popcorn into it even though it would be almost impossible to get it out again.

Lidded Box: There is no such thing as a turned lidded box. John Hart has already graphically illustrated the nature of a box. So we must refer to these forma as "lidded containers". Their usefulness, or lack thereof is irrelevant. Any container with a lid qualifies.

Vase: A gray area since, due to the fact that it is made of wood, it cannot really function as a vase.

I hope this settles it...

[John Beaver]

I've seen this discussion before so I thought I'd look it up in the dictionary.

Accordingly a bowl is a "round deep dish used for food or liquid." If you cross reference bowl and vase you get: vessel, container, receptacle, basin, pan, pot, jar, urn, tank, cask, barrel, drum, vat, amphora, crock, box, beaker, bottle, bucket, canteen, carafe, ewer, flask, tub, cistern, samovar, cauldron, jug, ossuary, vault, canister, ramekin, dish, tureen, porringer, and casserole.

Hollowform is not listed in any dictionary I could find.

[Jim Burr]

This is a box
191329

:o Just trying to contribute.

What the heck!! No peanuts? this place just isn't what it used to be :confused:

[John Hart]

What the heck!! No peanuts? this place just isn't what it used to be :confused:

It's The Economy, Jim. We have to cut corners everywhere....and you're just gonna hafta learn to make due just like all the rest of us. ;)

[Greg Ketell]

191312
So the bowl definition needs to be modified to indicate that the opening should be as large as the base or larger


That doesn't quite do it either, though. If the foot is 1" and the opening is 1.2" that isn't a bowl (to me). How about "opening should be as big or bigger than the foot and big enough to easily reach into to grab the contents"?



This same condition also applies to vases and cups (and goblets, for that matter) - if the height of the piece shown is increased until it is greater than the width, it becomes a vase (or a cup, depending on size).



I disagree with this. No cup I've ever seen has had a lip the moved in away from the edge. And I sure wouldn't want to try to drink from one that was that shape.




In addition, the opening in a vase may be considerably smaller than the base and still not qualify the piece as a hollow form. For example:
191321
Definitely a vase, not a hollow form.


Why not a HF? It is hollow and the opening is dramatically less than the body. If you cut the neck off at the top of the "bulb" it would be a HF, without question. So a long neck turns a HF into a not-HF?


A further distinction here is between a regular vase and a "bud vase" - the former is usually hollowed to uniform thickness in the bottom portion with walls of equal thickness, while the latter has a simple vertical hole drilled from top to bottom.



I guess "vase"s are just to abstract to really define by shape: I've seen them like the above; I've seen them like a southwest hollow form; I've seem them like a test tube; and I've seen them like your shape above. This particular shape is definitely a hollow form. I could also be a "vase" but primarily it is a HF.



As to boxes, I think the "easily removed" part is viable, but it applies only to the inside of the piece, not the exterior shape. For example, if the bowl shown above had vertical interior sides and a lid while retaining the same exterior shape it could certainly qualify as a box.


IF the lid were on the outside, not the inside or sitting on top, I agree. But if you were to make a lid that naturally fit the shape shown I would make it sit on the opening with a tenon in the hole. That would be a lidded bowl or lidded HF.



As for boxes themselves, nothing says the lid has to fit on the outside of the main turning, and I'm not sure than "snug fit" is a requirement either.

It seems that the more we attempt to define turnings the more we muddy the waters.


I agree 100%!!



And we haven't even looked into the realm of the plate/platter debate.

After an exhaustive discussion of this subject on another forum, one turner finally said, "I know one (vase/bowl/plate/HF/platter/whatever) when I see it."

'Nuf said.

[Frank Van Atta]

Bowl (or "Open Form"): An unarguably useful container that may or may not be attractive for any other reason.

Closed Form: A bowl that is still useful but less so due to it's constricted opening. For example, not as many hands could reach in for popcorn at the same time.

Hollow Form: A shape that is less than useful since the maker was more concerned is seeing how small a hole he could dig the guts of a log out through. Not completely useless because one could still get popcorn into it even though it would be almost impossible to get it out again.

Lidded Box: There is no such thing as a turned lidded box. John Hart has already graphically illustrated the nature of a box. So we must refer to these forma as "lidded containers". Their usefulness, or lack thereof is irrelevant. Any container with a lid qualifies.

Vase: A gray area since, due to the fact that it is made of wood, it cannot really function as a vase.

I hope this settles it...

I agree wholeheatedly - can't get any simpler than this.:cool:

[Greg Ketell]

Bowl (or "Open Form"): An unarguably useful container that may or may not be attractive for any other reason.

Closed Form: A bowl that is still useful but less so due to it's constricted opening. For example, not as many hands could reach in for popcorn at the same time.

Hollow Form: A shape that is less than useful since the maker was more concerned is seeing how small a hole he could dig the guts of a log out through. Not completely useless because one could still get popcorn into it even though it would be almost impossible to get it out again.

Lidded Box: There is no such thing as a turned lidded box. John Hart has already graphically illustrated the nature of a box. So we must refer to these forma as "lidded containers". Their usefulness, or lack thereof is irrelevant. Any container with a lid qualifies.

Vase: A gray area since, due to the fact that it is made of wood, it cannot really function as a vase.

I hope this settles it...

I like it. Let's carve it in stone!!