Does Cedar for fencing have to be pressure treated?

[Bobby O'Neal]

I am going to rebuild the front sections of my fence and will want to use something with a bit more curb appeal than the standard. This is a standard 6' security fence. I only need to make about 60' linear so I wont need much. I wondered if I could buy rough cedar and make it all. Would it weather well? I dont think this would really save me any money but that's not a huge concern. I'd also thought about white oak.

[Jon van der Linden]

Pressure treated is ugly and bad for your land. A properly installed post (gravel in the bottom) will last just as long, look better, feel better, and doesn't contribute as much to environmental pollution... and it isn't landfill when it finally gives out. There are a lot of different kinds of cedar, if they're okay for shingles, a fence should be more than fine.

Aesthetically you're only limited by your imagination and effort.

[Bruce Page]

Ceder fencing is common here in New Mexico. Some people will use pressure treated posts but never pressure treated fencing.

[Cody Colston]

Cedar will last well as fence boards. If you want to use them as posts, get some boxed-heart posts milled. In your area, I assume you are talking about ERC and they won't hold up well if the sapwood is left on the posts. You can brush Creosote on the ends that go in the ground to help with deterring insects. Just be aware that Creosote will blister you if you get it on your skin so take precautions. I would personally use PT or metal posts and Cedar for the fence boards.

Preserving the color of the Cedar is also difficult. It's probably best to just let it weather to a silvery gray.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Pressure treated is...bad for your land.....

Is that a statement of fact, or an opinion?



A properly installed post (gravel in the bottom) will last just as long....

That's a good installation method, but a PT post will outlast a heartwood WRC post, assuming identical installation methods. Of course, a heartwood WRC post will last long enough that most people won't worry about the longevity issue. If the cedar posts have sapwood, the lifespan just got shorter, and finding all-heartwood posts can be a problem, and can be more expensive.

[Jim Rimmer]

[QUOTE=Bobby O'Neal;1680408 want to use something with a bit more curb appeal than the standard. [/QUOTE]
Go to a fencing supply company to get the fence boards. I have side fence with borg fence boards but my patio fence i used fence company boards. The patio boards not only look better but they haven't bowed and cupped like the borg boards.

[Neil Bosdet]

West coast (rain forests = lots of cedar) chiming in here. Built tons of decks and fences with cedar. It's terrific. Cedar has a natural preservative so go ahead and use them for posts too. You don't need any preservatives. You don't need to add a coating to the boards in order to last either but you should consider it for looks. Uncoated boards will weather and turn a silver/grey. Some people really like this but I prefer to keep the cedar colour and richness. I've used many products out there and my favourite for cedar (any outdoor coating) is Sikkens. Find it, it's awesome. If you do use it, get the natural colour as they all have a lot of colour.

[Joe Adams]

If you go with Cedar, be sure to use either Stainless Steel or Aluminum fasteners. Galvanized nails will cause bleeding stains on the pickets.

[Neil Bosdet]

If you go with Cedar, be sure to use either Stainless Steel or Aluminum fasteners. Galvanized nails will cause bleeding stains on the pickets.

You don't need stainless or aluminum. Cedar is corrosive though. ACQ rated coated fasteners is the standard for treated wood or cedar.

[Jon van der Linden]

Is that a statement of fact, or an opinion?

No point in discussing it if you think it improves things or looks good. No one would suggest using it for fine work, so it's more than obvious that it's ugly and an eyesore. As far as the toxicity/poison aspect goes, it's pretty obvious that it's a fact. Not sure where you're trying to go with that. I don't know how things are done in GA but in places I know no one will take treated lumber for recycling or composting. Here in CA it's classified as toxic waste. Will the amounts that leach into the ground kill you? Probably not, but it certainly won't help. If the chemicals do leach out, then your soil is toxic waste as well. It's pretty much a fact that toxic soil is bad for your land, don't see how it could be good. There are also obvious known health hazards associated with working with pressure treated wood. Since I care about my health and the health of my neighbors, it's an easy choice.



That's a good installation method, but a PT post will outlast a heartwood WRC post, assuming identical installation methods. Of course, a heartwood WRC post will last long enough that most people won't worry about the longevity issue. If the cedar posts have sapwood, the lifespan just got shorter, and finding all-heartwood posts can be a problem, and can be more expensive.

The OP wasn't concerned with cost since he also considered white oak. Picking out quality wood is pretty basic to any woodworking whether construction or fine work. The posts will last as long as the fence if properly installed, so it's not really an issue. Non treated woods can be recycled or composted at the end of their lifecycle. Treated woods are landfill, and they reduce your quality of life while they're there because you get to look at them.

[Scott T Smith]

I am going to rebuild the front sections of my fence and will want to use something with a bit more curb appeal than the standard. This is a standard 6' security fence. I only need to make about 60' linear so I wont need much. I wondered if I could buy rough cedar and make it all. Would it weather well? I dont think this would really save me any money but that's not a huge concern. I'd also thought about white oak.


Bobby, I have several thousand feet of 4 board eastern red cedar fencing around my farm. It is currently about 6 years old, and has not been stained. The cedar boards are nailed to either yellow locust posts, or farm grade pressure treated posts (the farm grade PT posts that are available locally have a higher grade of pressure treating, and are more durable. They are also straighter than the locust posts, and thus were preferred around the horse arena, etc).

In six years, the cedar boards have aged to a nice "silver" appearance, and there is no sign of rot, etc. I anticipate that they should last for 30+ years.

[Joe Adams]

You don't need stainless or aluminum. Cedar is corrosive though. ACQ rated coated fasteners is the standard for treated wood or cedar.

Galvanized nails can have a chemical reaction with cedar that causes unsightly dark streaks to run down from the nail heads. Most fence companies in this area use spiral shank aluminum or stainless nails for cedar pickets.

[Kent A Bathurst]

In the interests of full disclosure, are you the Kent Bathurst who was/is a vice president of Universal Forest Products, the largest producer of pressure treated lumber in the US?

I think any MSDS as you are aware will list pressure treated lumber as having toxic properties that can result in fatalities, in fact the MSDS from Universal Forest Products says that it "may be harmful or fatal." Obviously that's not the expected result, but it's certainly not harmless.

Since it appears that you sell or did sell this product, you really should disclose that fact before making promotional statements for it in a forum.

Hah-hah-hah...this is too much - I lost my coffee - :D :D :D. You actually took the time to google me, berate me, come back 30 minutes later for a second salvo, before returning for an edit 40 minutes after that?? I am truly honored - truly - I don't recall ever before receiving this much attention.

Yes, indeed - I worked for UFPI for about 15 years, and left a bit over two years ago. An excellent corporation, in terms of shareholder value, employees, product quality, and environmental responsibility and stewardship. I am very proud to confirm that I served as a Vice President - in fact if I dug out my old business cards, I think I was a VP of four or five different things over the years - from Information Systems to Manufacturing Process Improvement and many things in between - never sales per se, but that isn't your point, and I certainly profited from those who did and do sell. [Personal aside - Hi There!! to all my friends in the Marketing Department that will be seeing this due to your google crawl/watch/whatever!!]

Furthermore - in full disclosure to my former professional colleagues - in the past 6 months, I have sold, designed , built, and installed fences, railings, gates, large arbors, and garden entrances - all out of WRC, and zero PT. About $8,000 of WRC purchases on my part, so I guess I am actually in the business of selling cedar. But, I'm in the middle of a couple large custom furniture commissions, so maybe I am selling QSWO and curly maple [got about $7,500 of new inventory in those piled all around me]? Tough call.

I wasn't making any kind of a promotional statement for PT or anything else - I was making a comment on characteristics of PT lumber, and how it compared to WRC - in my opinion - and I have an extensive, detailed knowledge of the products - as you were kind enough to point out. I also asked a straightforward question as to whether your statment on it being "bad for the land" was based in fact, or if it was an opinion.

Any producer of ACQ-treated products has the same basic MSDS, I'd guess, and it says a few things: PT lumber is listed as hazardous, not toxic. The wood dust is carcinogenic, but the chemicals are not. The PT chemical includes fungicides and insecticides which, when released into the environment in high enough concentrations, may be harmful or fatal to wildlife. [my emphasis added]. That's the chemicals they are talking about, not the finished product. Don't pour a few drums in the trout stream.

Of course you don't recycle PT lumber, and you definitely don't burn it. Same for the residual film left in an "empty" can of varnish. Both are inert, and neither is classified as a toxic waste - you landfill it. The health hazards of breathing wood dust is the big hazard from using PT wood - in fact any type of wood has an MSDS listing the same hazard [recall James Brady's famous "killer trees" line to Reagan?].

The sheer amount of hazards and toxicity virtually every woodworker here is at risk from on just a tiny sampling of items from even the shallest shelf of finishing products forms my opinion that the potential health risks from some PT fence posts pales by comparison. I'd be more concerned about dropping one on my foot and breaking a bone.

"....As far as the toxicity/poison aspect goes, it's pretty obvious that it's a fact...."
"...it's more than obvious that it's ugly and an eyesore........."

You are entitled, obviously, to your own opinions, but not, obviously, your own facts. You also seem to have a lot of free time on your hands, Jon.

I've just used up my quota of free time, and I've got to get back to not promoting more PT wood, and inhaling deadly white oak sawdust, and wiping on a couple more suicidal coats of environment-destroying VOC-laden varnish. :eek:

Be well.

Regards,

Kent

PS - Further full disclosure: BS Virginia Tech; MBA Michigan State - so any future rants against UVA or U of M sports teams should be taken with a grain of salt. ;)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Gentlemen,

Any more driveby shootings or personal attacks will be swiftly dealt with and it won't matter whether it's pressure treated or WRC!:D

Accusations without supporting facts are not allowed.

Let's be civil folks!

[Neil Bosdet]

Joe, are those nails straight up galvanized? I was suggested ACQ rated fasteners. I haven't had the discolouration issues you're showing when using ACQ rated fasteners.

[David Hostetler]

I used PT fence posts and rails, and the followed up with Cedar pickets and rot boards for my back fence. Cedar is nice, but I wouldn't trust it to stand up to hurricane winds, PT I think would have a better chance...

[hank dekeyser]

In a word NO - cedar doesnt need to be "treated"- A few years back I built a recliner out of scraps ranging from pine to walnut etc. After sitting out in the elements 24/7 for close to 5 years, the only wood that took a beating was the pine - everything else weatherd and held up just fine (some white and red oak also- both were fine) I literally had to take a sledge to it to knock it apart when I moved. My take is that just about anything will hold up outdoors as long as it isnt in direct contact w/ the ground and water doesnt stand on it. I'm in Wisconsin.

[Jon van der Linden]

Hank brings up an excellent point, most decay occurs right around ground level & a few inches below. This is why it's important to have the concrete collar come up to ground level, you really don't want dirt up against a post. If a fence has "pockets" where water and debris can pool, then you get decay above ground level. I see this a lot with some of the "good neighbor" style fences around here, where the design encourages premature decay of the fence boards.

[Joe Adams]

Joe, are those nails straight up galvanized? I was suggested ACQ rated fasteners. I haven't had the discolouration issues you're showing when using ACQ rated fasteners.

I can't say for sure whether ACQ fasteners will bleed in Cedar. I saw some standard galvanized nails in cedar with black staining just today. They were installed less than two years ago. I know you're safe with stainless or aluminum which is why I recommended them. This is generally what your better fencing contractors will use for Cedar pickets.

[Jon van der Linden]

Glad you're having fun Kent! You are of course absolutely correct that pressure treated wood is not classified as toxic waste. Here in California it does exceed hazardous waste toxicity criteria, and is generally considered hazardous waste because of its ability to leach chemicals into the environment. No matter how you word it I think my point was and is clear.

As far as it being "bad for your land," anything that leaches chemicals exceeding hazardous waste toxicity criteria can't be good. When they become waste these treated wood products are not allowed to touch soil or be out in the open uncovered and subject to precipitation. When it goes into "landfill," it's a "class I hazardous waste landfill" or a "composite-lined portion of a solid waste landfill." That level of regulation and concern is not an opinion, but a fact.

[Pat Barry]

Cedar will not last in a below ground application here in Minnesota. The ground is too much clay and retains too much water around the post causing rot. Pressure treated on the other hand can be put in the ground directly with no worries or the post hole and post can be backfilled with concrete. I used 1 bag of quickcrete per post over 20 years ago and those posts are solid as a rock. Could not do that with cedar. On the other hand the pressure treated is ugly. I used cedar fence boards and cedar rails with the pressure treated posts.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Glad you're having fun Kent!

Oh - absolutely - I've been very entertained - thanks for playing!! :D :D :D



Here in California it does exceed hazardous waste toxicity criteria, and is generally considered hazardous waste.........That level of regulation and concern is not an opinion, but a fact.

And - there we are. Facts. Thanks for checking into that - good to know. I'd suspect that there are varying opinions from the various state's regulatory agencies, and scientists in general, about the ability of the PT lumber to leach chemicals, but I've no argument with handling it that way. My opinion, and I'd bet it is widely shared, is that California is always on the "bleeding edge" of environmental regulations, and the rest of the country ultimately moves that direction. While one might argue around the margins, IMO the general thrust is correct and beneficial.

Thanks also, Jon, for a more coldly pragmatic analysis on an issue that can - understandably - generate a lot of emotion. I've no argument there either. My best friend, who is from the gang of thieves that were my frat brothers back in the 1920's ;) is married to a woman who is a mucky-muck in her state's EPA. I can light her up like an Apollo launch in 5 words or less.

Finally - I am thankful, and you should be disappointed - that "back in the day" there was no facebook or the googles or the internetospheroscape. I would have been mortified, and you would have died laughing, if my college years showed up via google research. Like when I was a sophomore - those were three of the happiest years of my life. :eek: :eek: :eek:. Since I am more-or-less retired from the corporate world, the first thing I did when I left Universal was to stop paying the hairdresser to cut my hair. Nice, long ponytail after 2-1/2 years - but the color seems different than it was in college :confused:.

Regards,

Kent

[Gregory King]

I have an old cedar hydro pole for a clothesline post And it is strange why that post rots at the ground level as was mentioned earlier. I will have to soon replace it because of the rot. By saying that, I have no idea of its age. We installed it around 1980. Not sure how long it served as a utility pole before it was cut off. It is indeed weathered, but still in good shape above ground. Probably should have been wrapped in plastic. Otherwise, it would probably outlive me. By the way, it is Eastern white cedar.

[Mike Schuch]

Sorry, I gave up reading through the thread when it started getting to politics.

I would never build a cedar fence with anything but steel posts. I use 2 1/2" steel tubing (the cheap stuff not the DOM). I like to leave them long and put lights on the tops (Yes you have to run the wire first!)

My post setting procedure is: Put the post in the hole. Pour in dry ready mix. Align the post (The post setting levels for $10 are great because you can align both axis at the same time). Tamp the concrete with an 8 foot 2 x 4. If your ground is really dry or you want to speed things up a bit you can put cup of water on the dry concrete. I never add extra water as my ground always has enough moisture.

You can easily get 3 or four fences out of one set of posts.

My religion forbids the use of nails... so I only use screws.

[Brian Breshears]

This winter I replaced two 4x4 PT posts that had rotted at the interface with the concrete pour around the base. The concrete was above ground level so there was no contact between the soil and the post. I replaced the posts using a galvanized bracket sunk into a new concrete pour to hold the new post above the ground (and slightly away from the bracket). I'm confident those posts will not rot.

As far as using cedar, I have cedar fencing between all of the PT posts (I didn't select the materials or it would have been done differently) and the only part of the fence that rots is the cedar that contacts the soil. I have a neighbor that cannot seem to garden without piling dirt up against the fence along the bottom. I intentionally raise the fence up from the soil to prevent this and she manages to pile it deeper on her side. She will be sharing in the work and cost of repairs next time I have a rot problem. There are certainly different grades of cedar out there - don't skimp and keep it away from the soil. No pressure treating is needed, nature already took care of that part.

[ray hampton]

if water are bad for your wooden fence-posts, why are poles that are under the surface of the water do not decay the way that posts that stand up do

[Jon van der Linden]

if water are bad for your wooden fence-posts, why are poles that are under the surface of the water do not decay the way that posts that stand up do

It's the exposure to air, moisture, and soil together that create the environment where decay is accelerated like that. In most posts I've removed the decay is in the first 6" below grade. This is true even in for posts where the bottom of the post is at a depth where it is most likely in water year round. (Think high water table!)

If you're going to apply some kind of sealant for longevity, that small 6" section is the only area that really needs it. Another thing that helps is having gravel under the post so that it can drain. Creating a cup for water under the post will definitely decrease longevity.

[Kent A Bathurst]

It's the exposure to air, moisture, and soil together that create the environment where decay is accelerated like that. In most posts I've removed the decay is in the first 6" below grade. This is true even in for posts where the bottom of the post is at a depth where it is most likely in water year round. (Think high water table!)

If you're going to apply some kind of sealant for longevity, that small 6" section is the only area that really needs it. Another thing that helps is having gravel under the post so that it can drain. Creating a cup for water under the post will definitely decrease longevity.

Exactly. The microscopic critter - the fungus - that causes what we call "rot" - for the most part needs air as well as moisture, and damp, loose [relatively speaking] soil is fungus heaven. Comments above by Brian, Mike, and Gregory are cases-in-point. Different species have different levels of naturally-occuring fungicide in them - mostly concentrated in the heartwood. Or - as Brian did - you can use wood products that have fungicide added.

The antique "river logs" that are resurrected from the bottoms of the rivers and bays [near old sawmills that floated them in] will most likely have lost the bark and sapwood, but not the heartwood, even after a couple hundred years - again, the specific species is a factor.

[Cody Colston]

if water are bad for your wooden fence-posts, why are poles that are under the surface of the water do not decay the way that posts that stand up do

Lack of oxygen.

I was raised on a 200 acre farm and I've put in and pulled up lots of fence posts of varying species. All wood that is in contact with the ground will eventually rot, even the heartwood, although it generally lasts a lot longer than sapwood due to the natural extractives and oils present.

I've pulled up 15 yr old Eastern Red Cedar posts that were 10" diameter above ground and 4" diameter below ground...only a skinny heartwood skeleton left. Post Oak is good for about 10 years around here. Bois d' Arc, which has a thin band of sapwood is good for 50 years. Sassafrass, Mulberry and Locust make decent posts, too, but I still prefer PT lumber over them all. It is durable, it's straight, consistently sized and readily available. The chemical hazard associated with PT lumber products, even with the old CCA treated stuff, is more of a political issue than an environmental one.