Full combination or Split machines (Hammer B3W + A331)

[John Paul Cummings]

Hi

I have been looking at buying a full combination machine for a while. I have been looking at a few good combination machine deals going around and then stumbled over a deal from the Felder Group. They are offering a Hammer package on the saw/shaper + jointer/planer + mortising attachment and chuck for a package price. The shaper is tilting with a great "seemingly" new locating system on the shaper to reposition the shaper fence easily and accurately after it has been removed. I know the A331 is a great machine from all the previous posts on SMC and the machine also has a few new and great improvements. The New design on the A331 takes up even less space. So to be honest the Combination machine I am looking at is the CU300, but for $ 1000-00 more I can get this Hammer package. Less setup and change over time, easier access into my shop and a few features the combi does not offer. How to choose - please help.

Thanks JP

[Richard Coers]

I have an early Minimax combination machine and love it. There are only two setups that take some time. The shaper setup seems to take the longest, and to get to the planer is number two. I actually bought a used Dewalt thickness planer years ago, so now that setup never happens on the Minimax. I like the wheels and handle on my machine, so I move it around for different setups. For me, I don't see either an advantage or disadvantage to either setup you are looking at, if they have wheels. You could park the saw/shaper up against the jointer planer sometimes, so the overall size in the shop may not be much different.

[Jeff Monson]

John, I own separate combination machines. I'd suggest going with a jointer/planer machine, and a saw/shaper machine. The full combo machines are nice but a huge footprint IMO. I have a hammer A3-31 and a Felder KF700, couldn't be happier with either machine. The new A3-31 looks nice, and the B3W is a really sweet machine at a great price right now.

One word of caution on the B3W is look at all the options and pick them wisely. Once the machine is configured its hard to change. I'd HIGHLY recommend calling a salesman at Felder and talk about machine options, you wont be out anything and will learn alot from some really nice people. I deal with Fergus, he is a top notch guy and wont pressure sell you.

Good luck choosing, you will also get a lot of good information here on SMC!!!

[Rod Sheridan]

John, I have an A3-31 and a B3 Winner, great machines.

The new shaper fence is nice as it indexes into the table and doesn't require re-aligning like my shaper fence does.

Jeff has good advice on picking your options carefully, you can add accessories at any time, options are factory installed.

The main options to consider for the B3 are scoring saw, and sliding table length. as well as the outrigger.

I purchased mine with scoring saw, 49" sliding table, dado capability, and CSA approval as options.

Accessories I bought are telescopic crosscut fence extension, tilt away power feeder, full table on the right of the saw, rip fence fine adjustment, round guide bar for rip fence, trapazoidal steel table for sliding table, tenon hood for shaper, edging shoe for straight line cutting and eccentric hold down clamp.


Both machines are very nice, and as others have stated, they are more space friendly than the full combo which is a large square machine that has to be in the center of the shop.

Regards, Rod.

[Mike Ruggeri]

I have the CU 300 Smart and don't think change over time is a significant issue. Granted, I am a hobbyist and if I was in a production environment my thoughts would probably be different. The CU300 is an amazing machine - powerful, super accurate, an overall joy to use (especially with the Tersa blade system). My machine is on Zambus casters and it is easy to move around (much better than the standard mobile arrangement). I find that I don't use the shaper that much compared to the saw. One of the best things I have is an add-on on/off switch located right on the sliding table - this is a fantastic feature that should come with these machines (see MM owners group on Yahoo if you want to see this set up).

I checked out the Hammer machines in February at the local woodworking show - my thoughts are that their jointer/planer was nice but the B3 seemed much more "light weight" and not as substantial compared to my MM. I did like the Hammer rip fence and hold down clamp.

I think you have to figure out what options/features you want and then compare machines and prices. I would suggest getting the longest slider you can. When I first got mine, I had buyers remorse that I got too big of a slider (8.5 feet) but now after using it a bit I would never go smaller. Also consider where you are going to set up the machines and see what works best for you in the given space.

Whichever you pick, you will love moving to these machines.

Mike

[John Paul Cummings]

Thanks for the feedback,

These are some of the changes between the 2 machine I have picked up, please comment.

The Hammer has the tilting shaper, benefits? and then as mentioned previously the new memory system they have for putting the shaper hood back in it's correct position, less setup, I like that. It does not have the router attachment option.... they only offer that on the bigger Felder machines but the sales guy keeps telling me they don't offer that due to the running speed of the shaper. It goes up to 10,000 rpm but you need more speed for smaller router bits.....?

The Hammer has a Poly V belt drive with steel pulley from the motors, the Minimax has V belts (pulley material?) The poly V has a better power transfer from the motor to the tool from what I have been reading.

They both have turn over knife planer blades, the Hammer blades are still adjustable and the Tersa not. The Tersa does have the option of carbide blades (not that I know if I can afford those blades) but both systems seem to have the same quick change concept. One with screws you loosen and one with a wedge you knock out. Seems the same to me.

The rip fence I think is what I like the most with having 2 machines. The Hammer fence runs on a round steel bar with a cast iron fence, looks nice and heavy. I can leave it on the machine and have option of a rip capacity from 31" to 49". The movement and fence system on all the combination machines don't look great to me.

I need to still get the wheel sets for the Hammer machine but it comes with the Minimax. The extension table system on the Hammer machines also look nice if I start working with bigger and longer pieces? And the dial indicator on the Hammer planer is very accurate, does the Minimax have something like that?
JP

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks for the feedback,

These are some of the changes between the 2 machine I have picked up, please comment.

The Hammer has the tilting shaper, benefits?

A tilting spindle allows you to purchase a rebate cutter and then use it to cut bevels from 90 to 45 degrees, very useful for differing chamfers etc.


and then as mentioned previously the new memory system they have for putting the shaper hood back in it's correct position, less setup, I like that. It does not have the router attachment option.... they only offer that on the bigger Felder machines but the sales guy keeps telling me they don't offer that due to the running speed of the shaper. It goes up to 10,000 rpm but you need more speed for smaller router bits.....?

Yes/no. The speed is too low for smaller bits, just fine for larger bits. I believe the Felder router spindle goes to 17,000RPM. I don't miss using router bits, they have crappy cutting geometry compared to a shaper cutter. I use HSS cutters in a head, knives are around $20 for a pair, produce a superior finish in solid wood.

The Hammer has a Poly V belt drive with steel pulley from the motors, the Minimax has V belts (pulley material?) The poly V has a better power transfer from the motor to the tool from what I have been reading.

They both have turn over knife planer blades, the Hammer blades are still adjustable and the Tersa not. The Tersa does have the option of carbide blades (not that I know if I can afford those blades) but both systems seem to have the same quick change concept. One with screws you loosen and one with a wedge you knock out. Seems the same to me.

Either Tersa or the Hammer no adjustment required knives are great. No longer will you be running dull knives because you can't motivate yourself to change them. Both are truly a 5 minute tops job.

The rip fence I think is what I like the most with having 2 machines. The Hammer fence runs on a round steel bar with a cast iron fence, looks nice and heavy. I can leave it on the machine and have option of a rip capacity from 31" to 49". The movement and fence system on all the combination machines don't look great to me.

Mine has the round guide bar, with 3 position aluminum fence. It works great, you get a safer, more versatile fence system than the Bies style.

I need to still get the wheel sets for the Hammer machine but it comes with the Minimax. The extension table system on the Hammer machines also look nice if I start working with bigger and longer pieces? And the dial indicator on the Hammer planer is very accurate, does the Minimax have something like that?

You can put your own wheels on the Hammer, that's what I di.

The extension tables make a world of difference with large pieces. It allows your machine to always be large enough, yet not take over the shop when you're doing smaller pieces.

The digital planer height gauge is a must, no more fooling around when you need to return to a setting.
JP

Please see my comments in red above. Both the Hammer and MiniMax are great machines, for above the cabinet saw........Rod.

[Mike Ruggeri]

JP,

A few thoughts....

You can get the tilting shaper on the MM as an option. MM also has a router spindle. I was almost positive the guy from Hammer at the woodworking show said you could get the router option for the Hammer - you might want to recheck that. I don't have the router spindle for my CU-300 but wish I did and I will probably order one at some point. As you said, your speed is limited to 10,000 rpm which doesn't work well for small bits, but it works for larger router bits plus you can adjust your feed rate. I haven't had the need to tilt the shaper spindle but for certain operation it would be nice to have (for me the cost benefit is not there). You might also want to check if a 3/4 inch spindle is available on the Hammer (MM has "quick change" spindles on the shaper and I find I usually get better deals on 3/4 inch bore cutters and use the 3/4 inch spindle much more than the 1 1/4 inch).

I wouldn't worry about the belts/pulleys - all the machines you are looking at are high quality and will run like tops and have plenty of power.

I love the Tersa system - I literally can change my blades in a few minutes (used to take me 1 to 2 hours on my old jointer with lots of frustration). Also, if you happen to nick one, it only takes a minute to shift a blade over to compensate. Not sure how the Hammer is adjustable but not really sure why you would need it to be. I have heard good things about the Felder blade change system too.

On the rip fence, both designs are very similar - cast head with aluminum fence. Very much like the Unifence design. As I mentioned earlier, I think the Hammer is a bit "smoother" moving over the bar (at least the one at the show was) but otherwise very comparable to the MM. I agree with your point on having more space to the right of the blade with 2 separate machines - my take however is do you really need it if you have a good size sliding table? I don't think I will ever wrestle with a large panel against the rip fence like I had to do with my Unisaw when now I can just put it on the sliding table and make the cut more accurately and with substantially less effort.

The MM wheels work OK for moving the machine around. Not sure how the Hammer system works. I prefer casters (like the Zambus) vs. the lifting handle type systems if you are working in a more confined space. Also, separate machines will be lighter than the full combo (my CU300 is something 1300+ lbs) and should move easier.

I don't think MM offers the planer guage like the Hammer (although some have used a aftermarket digital guage to do it) - would be nice for them to have this as I could see it being handy. I'm not sure if extensions are available for the MM (I haven't had the need).

Again, I think you should also consider what options you want so that you can compare apples to apples. For example dado capability is standard on the MM and the tilt shaper is standard on the Hammer. Each adds to the respective price and there are many other options for each company. There are also other small things to consider like the MM takes a standard 5/8" bore blade while the Hammer needs the special Felder holes.

Lots of things to consider, but all good machines you are looking at so you should be happy in the end.

Mike

Mike

[Chris Tsutsui]

You are making a big long term investment with either choice so I wouldn't consider the $1,000 savings as the deal breaker between the two options.

I would go separates as much as possible IF you have the shop space.

I'm still waiting for the day when a 3phase slider sells for 80% off on craigslist so I can buy it and justify getting a phase converter. :)

[John Paul Cummings]

Hi

I think I am getting close but yes you are correct, lots to consider. The Hammer machine is equipped with the dado option up to 3/4" so that is great. I did see that the Hammer comes with the European 30mm (+/- 1 1/4") bore for the saw arbor but I actually like the idea of a bigger shaft. When using a dado that size I don't think I would like to use a 5/8" arbor as I did in the past, I like the idea of something bigger to handle the heavier work I am intending to do with this machine compared to my old Unisaw. I called Forest and they actually make a dado set for the Hammer and Felder machines and they say the blades are also not problem, they can re-bore and drill my old blades (all 5/8") for little cost and these days with so many European machines on the market the 30mm blade seem easy enough to find even Hammer offers a nice range and it's not to badly priced. The Felder holes in the blades is actually a safety feature so the blade does not spin on the shaft because Hammer has the electronic brake on the saw. Something again to do with the European safety regulations.

The Hammer shaper is standard with 1 1/4" shaft and again I like the idea of a bigger diameter shaft. They have an option for the shaft to be used as 30mm also for only a few $. I like that idea because I can then buy local 1 1/4" tooling and also if needed look at the European shaper tooling in 30mm. Seems like they have a massive and very detailed shaper offering not only from Hammer / Felder but other suppliers. So I will use the new shaper to take a step up in my woodworking and use my hand router for the small jobs as I believe both machine don't offer a great system for the router, the speeds look all wrong to me. I like what Rod said about the cutterblock with the change over blades for $ 20 per set, think that will be my first set to get things going.

One last question, does the Minimax have the shaper memory system to put the hood back in place...... or I think that is what they call it. Looks like something that is a must on any combination machine.

Both companies have been great to deal with - just seems like Felder has a little bigger company infrastructure in the US........ I think.

Thanks again for all the help, I am very close now.
JP

[Andrew Gibson]

I have to say I am Seriously jealous!
second I have very little impute as to the specifics of any of these machines other them I really want to be in your shoes.

The one thing that kept hitting me from your original post was that I would think 2 separate machines would be much easier to sell the one machine in the event that they had to be sold...

I think you are way past this point so I will sit and read and wait for my unknown rich uncle to kick the bucket.

ooh we better see lots of picks when your machines arive. We are talking crashing the server pics. :P

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi JP, the Hammer machine is limited to a 180mm maximum diameter dado, which is about 7 inches. I have the FS Tools 6" dado for mine.

The shaper is a 1" solid spindle, with sleeves for 1 1/4 inch and 30mm, these are things you can add/change at any time as they're accessories.

I'm sure you've seen the accessories catalogue, one neat thing is the "shlefix" spindle sanding spindles you can use on the shaper, I plan to get one or two as well as the Euro curve guard.

I had my 10" saw blades bored to 30mm and the pin holes bored for less than $20 per blade, I also bought a 12" rip blade and a split scoring saw for mine. (The only time I need deep cuts is with rough material, chopping to length and then straight line ripping. After it's dressed I would never need a 12 inch blade).

Regards, Rod.

[John Paul Cummings]

Thanks again for all the help. I agree with all on having a little more options available to me with the separate machines and the actual footprint is almost the same. The package Hammer has going at the moment just seems to good. See the link below. The first package comes with the B3, (Including the outrigger table, not in the picture) tilting shaper, saw, scoring, slider, shaper memory function, dado, solid steel bar rip fence .....and more. The New A331 has been re-done and I think is currently the best machine on the market in that range. The changes they have done makes the machine footprint even smaller and it has a fence the quality that is not normally seen on machines this size. Plus a mortiser, chuck, and heavy clamp for the slider.

Rod did you ever have a problem with the dado capacity on the Hammer - does it not cut deep enough? Do you then usually use the shaper?

This is the link to the package: http://mirrorfelder.cnh.at/Newsletter/USA/USA-A3+B3-Two-is-Better-than-One.pdf

JP

[Larry Edgerton]

Don't know about the combinations, but I do have SCM/Minimax slider, shaper, and planer seperates and am very happy with all of them. The only machine that has broken was my tablesaw, and that was my fault, I had not noticed a lifting strap was around the height adjuster. Parts were fast, no problem.

I also like Felder stuff, and the only reason that I don't have it is I made an appointment to look at some at a dealer in Madison Wisconsin on a Saturday, drove 500 miles to get there and he was not there. Got an attitude and bought SCM. I do wish I had a back tilting shaper. I do a lot of odd stuff, and I could make that work for me.

My planer has a height readout on the electric table, and that is a nice feature. So is the electric table adjustment. I have the Tersa head, and love it. I have done the 4 knife change in two minutes just to see how fast it could be done. Always right on the money.

I think either way you go you are going to be happy as a pig in mud. You don't really have bad choices, kind of like do I want Butter Pecan or Moose Tracks........

[John Paul Cummings]

thanks for all the help.

[John Paul Cummings]

I had the chance to play with both the Hammer planer blades and the Tersa system. They both work great. Easy to set and honestly the same finish. With blades that set this fine the Hammer dial on the planer height adjustment accurate to 0.004" is really great. The combination of the blade system and the dial makes the system even better. The same dial system can also be mounted to the shaper, correct? I have not done to much shaper work but the Hammer keeps impressing. Tilting shaper, with the memory system on the shaper hood and then the dial also. That just tells me the setup on this will be great. Seems like only the high end machines offer all these solutions.

Both machines are very solid, I do like the dual lifting tables on the Hammer jointer.

The Minimax rolling carriage is standard - the Hammer is an extra in the package I have been looking at. The Hammer carriage just looks a little better and they also have a nice little package price if I get the set for both machines. Still planning the shop so I'm not even sure if I will be moving the machines. Maybe buy a palette trolley.

2 x general questions. Seems like the Minimax has little legs the machine stands on and the Hammer has a solid chassis to the floor with a bottom plate closing the machine on all 4 sides. Might not be great for dust buildup inside the Hammer but seems like the chassis will be more stable?

The Hammer slider runs up against the blade, so close that you would almost think it's possible to cut the table? I guess you want that support as close as possible to the blade......also when scoring? The Minimax tables is not directly next to the blade and has a little insert filling the gap. What is better? How does it look on the even bigger machines?

Thanks again SMC - your help has been great.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, on the B3 the mobility kit raises the machine maybe 1/2", so it is off the floor except for the 4 points of contact. I would expect that both the Hammer and the MiniMax would be equally stable, they're both good designs.

The Hammer slider is close to the left side of the blade, with the removable insert to the right of the blade. The dado moves to the right, into the insert when fitted.

I'm guessing that since MiniMax has the insert on the left, that the dado moves to the left as the thickness increases.

I wouldn't make either of those design options a point to consider when buying, they both work well.

The Hammer shaper will accept the height gauge, and the tilting spindle is very useful, same for the indexed fence system, you can plop the fence back on at the exact same spot, not have to fiddle.

Add the power feeder option to your machine, I have the HC-308 feeder on the tilt away mount, superb.

Regards, Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Personally, I prefer a J/P combo and a slider or slider/shaper combo as separate and complimentary. But that also works better for my shop space which is why I went that way for my own purchases

[John Paul Cummings]

and it starts, the budget was around the $10k and the Hammer set of machines was going to be perfect. Then I looked at those Felder's ......ouch. KF700SP, AD741, FB600, RL160 - now that is a set of machines that will make any man cry.