Grizzly delay

[Jim Barstow]

I know there have been other threads about this. Perhaps if Grizzly hears this enough they'll do something about it.

I order a 514x2 bandsay in January. It was originally going to be delivered in March. That seemed long but ok. It was then delayed a month, into April. I called today and it is now delayed past mid-May.

If they can't deliver what they sell, they should be honest about it. I'm now mad enough that perhaps I'll spend more and get a Laguna or Italian bandsaw.

[Joe Chritz]

That is the nature of the beast when you are producing equipment half way around the world and trying to ship them and maintain some kind of schedule. I tried to order a part for a power feed of another manufacturer and the wait to get it on a ship was about 4 months.

Nothing wrong with canceling and ordering something else if you need it now.

Joe

[John Lanciani]

I'm no Grizzly fan but just to be fair you may have to wait just as long, or longer, to get an Italian machine if the supplier you choose does not have the one you're looking for in the warehouse when you order it. I have a shop full of European machinery and I've had wait times of almost 6 months for delivery. I do agree that they should be more forthcoming on lead times, but it is not exactly a secret at this point that Grizzly can be pretty optimistic on their guesstimated delivery dates. You just have to decide for yourself if the wait is worth it or if you want to start over and possibly be at the end of the list with a different supplier.

John

[John Shuk]

When I bought my Laguna I had to wait until the Ship came in. There is no guarantee that any vendor can get something there faster.

[Ruhi Arslan]

These types of delays in wood working machinery may have became the norm - most likely because it is being tolerated by the consumer - but having the goods manufactured overseas is not not nearly a good excuse. Maybe they should hire competent business managers along with competent marketing staff who can predict the demand somehow more accurately and can line up their ducks in a row. But again, why bother if the consumer is perfectly happy with what they are offered.

[Eric McCune]

Eagle tools carries an inventory of Agazzani bandsaws. I received an email from Felder last week stating they had 3 bandsaws available from a recent shipment.

Either way, the problem is not waiting for a tool (I waited 4 months for my combo), it's the expectations set by the seller at that time of purchase. When sellers don't meet their commitments, that's poor customer service. When they keep pushing the date a month at a time, that's either poor management or deception to keep you from cancelling when you know the truth.

[John Lanciani]

These types of delays in wood working machinery may have became the norm - most likely because it is being tolerated by the consumer - but having the goods manufactured overseas is not not nearly a good excuse. Maybe they should hire competent business managers along with competent marketing staff who can predict the demand somehow more accurately and can line up their ducks in a row. But again, why bother if the consumer is perfectly happy with what they are offered.


The problem with this is that everything you have listed adds cost. We as consumers have generally beaten down suppliers to the extent that there is not much margin left so any increase in supplier cost will tend to directly affect the price. Just look at how many brick and mortar stores have gone out of business in recent years to see my point. In our society right now cost is king, service is secondary.

As far as having competent business managers, I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that Grizzly has that area covered based on their apparent success in today's market.

[Shiraz Balolia]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?163498-Longest-wait-for-a-Grizzly-backorder&p=1676785&highlight=#post1676785

See Post # 13

[Paul Johnstone]

Do you have a Woodcraft nearby? You can go in there today and probably drive home a Rikon today.
There's a reason why Woodcraft is a little bit more expensive than mail ordering a Griz.. It's worth it in my opinion.

[Keith Outten]

I agree with John, the cost to maintain an inventory is very expensive and the demand for low prices prevents many businesses from being able to keep them in stock continuously. The problems we have in America is that we don't just want the lowest price we want it right now as well.

Every manufacturer has the same problem with delivery schedules and product tracking, heck most of them are using the same over seas carriers and the same domestic transportation. Add to these problems the cost of inventory and you have a huge issue that directly affects your bottom line. When your transportation carrier tells you that your products are on a particular ship due to arrive in three weeks and its a mistake you can't do a thing except contact your customer and reschedule delivery. I expect the factories are the main reason that delivery schedules are unreliable but I don't believe the sales outlets are to blame for providing incorrect delivery dates.

Prior to the economic mess we are in right now companies could afford to stock their warehouses to the roof with products, that isn't the case right now and it may never happen again. These days you can't even plan on receiving 12" by 24" engraving plastic on a reliable schedule mush less a major machine. Nothing is like it used to be a couple of years ago and I honestly doubt it will ever be the same.

Paul, just because a store has an item on the floor ready for delivery doesn't make it the best choice for a particular customer. An alternate machine generally is a temporary solution that ultimately will be the most expensive course of action IMO. I would rather wait for the machine I want, these days I am making every effort to plan for my future needs as early as possible assuming that I will have a long wait to receive new equipment.
.

[Neil Brooks]

VERY well put, Keith.

From a business perspective, I think you nailed, very well, all of the forces that are at work, here.

[Paul Johnstone]

I Paul, just because a store has an item on the floor ready for delivery doesn't make it the best choice for a particular customer. An alternate machine generally is a temporary solution that ultimately will be the most expensive course of action IMO. I would rather wait for the machine I want, these days I am making every effort to plan for my future needs as early as possible assuming that I will have a long wait to receive new equipment.
.

How is a Rikon Bandsaw (or any other brand from a local dealer) a temporary solution? Most name brand bandsaws give performance comparable to their price. I am not going to look up that Grizzly number, but if you are implying that Rikon is inferior to a Grizzly, well, I'm just going to :) at that.

Different strokes for different folks.. If it's worth waiting 4 months to save $100 or so to you, I guess people like you keep Grizzly in business. Sure, it's a great idea to plan 6 months ahead for a tool you need so you can watch for sales and anticipate backorders, but that's not always possible. If I was the OP and had my heart set on Griz, I'd see which ones were in stock and order a different one. Honestly, I would not wait 4 months for any specific tool. Life is too short.

[Mike Goetzke]

I think many are missing the OP point. We mind the delayed shipment from time the order is placed but don't accept constant updates of further delays. Let the buyer know a realistic date up front. Even if you don't know tell them that. (This is for all suppliers - in the past several months I have had problems with suppliers other than Griz with not meeting promised delivery dates.)


Mike

[Neil Brooks]

I think many are missing the OP point. We mind the delayed shipment from time the order is placed but don't accept constant updates of further delays. Let the buyer know a realistic date up front. Even if you don't know tell them that. (This is for all suppliers - in the past several months I have had problems with suppliers other than Griz with not meeting promised delivery dates.)

Fair point, and ... I surely got that.

But the reality is that manufacturing a product like Grizzly does -- much like building a house, in the States -- is a carefully orchestrated and hugely complicated ballet.

And ... a HUGE percentage of the things that have to happen, have to happen in a particular order -- otherwise, you halt production and introduce delays.

It counts on -- literally -- THOUSANDS of companies/vendors doing their job perfectly, every time, and having no glitches in THEIR (often equally complicated) supply chains.

It's smart business to run lean inventories, in lean times.

The cost of that IS that you DO run into stock outages, and -- because of what I described above -- you simply cannot reliably give delivery dates that will work every time.

I give Grizzly the benefit of the doubt that -- when they DO give an ETA -- they sincerely believe that's going to BE the delivery date.

Until something else breaks ;)

[Joe Shinall]

Jim, I ordered mine in early March and got it yesterday. Originally was told it would April 29th before they would have any so you may get it sooner. Maybe it's because of where you live, not sure. Wouldn't think I would have got mine before you.

[Don Bullock]

...
If they can't deliver what they sell, they should be honest about it. I'm now mad enough that perhaps I'll spend more and get a Laguna or Italian bandsaw.

I would suspect that Grizzly is being as "honest" as possible under the current economic conditions. For a 19" bandsaw I doubt you're going to be able to just go out and buy one off the floor at Woodcraft or just about anyplace else.

As has been mentioned, Eagle Tools in Los Angeles does sell Agazzani Bandsaws as well as others including General, Jet, Powermatic and Rikon. They would be one of my first choices for finding a bandsaw in stock. Jesse and his staff are very knowledgable and helpful. They ship machines all over. No, I have no affiliation with Eagle tools other than being a very satisfied customer.

If you want another brand, as Keith and others have said, you may have even a longer wait time than you've already had with Grizzly and they may have to revise delivery times too. Grizzly seems to be doing the best that they can. You're certainly not the only one here at SMC who's had a long wait for machinery from them.

[jonathan eagle]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?163498-Longest-wait-for-a-Grizzly-backorder&p=1676785&highlight=#post1676785

See Post # 13

Shiraz,
Any similar data on the g0634xp?
I have one on order.
Jonathan

[Shiraz Balolia]

Jonathan - I saw a whole pile of them (several containers worth) on the floor at the factory about 3 weeks ago when I was there and they were waiting on one fence part to be re-made. So, like Neil said, all factors have to line up. Now, the common thought process is "how difficult would it be to re-make a simple part". Not very, but sometimes those subs have huge production runs that they have to complete, plus get new material in, which in itself could be a problem nowadays with the material prices the way they are. We are checking on the current status with the factory.

This is not making excuses, but rather explaining just one of a possible 100+ things that could affect delivery. Oh, and while I am on the subject, we do not order one container of bandsaws at a time. Our orders could easily range from 10 to 30 containers at a time. Remember, we stock machines at all three locations and generally have plenty of stock. You don't hear much about the tens of thousands of pounds of machinery we ship EACH day. Indeed, we have the largest selection of bandsaws under one brand in the world and our goal continues to be to have plenty of stock we can sell of every single model at all three of our locations. The moment we find out accurate dates on out of stock items, the computers are updated and the operators have access to that information.

[Paul Johnstone]

I would suspect that Grizzly is being as "honest" as possible under the current economic conditions. For a 19" bandsaw I doubt you're going to be able to just go out and buy one off the floor at Woodcraft or just about anyplace else.
.

Sure you can.. You can buy a 18" right off the floor at Woodcraft. There's another dealer in town where you could buy a 20"
and have several other choices of large bandsaws. Now I realize not every city is this lucky.. But there's other mail order dealers that routinely fullfill the order in a timely manner. Do you pay a little extra for better supply chain management? Yes.
Other places will tell you on the website whether a product is on backorder and give you a realistic date for delivery.
They also have to deal with Chineese manufacturing.

Yes, lean inventories help keep prices down. And yes, if you want the absolute best bang for the buck and are willing to suffer through this, I can understand.

But let's not pretend that there's not other options, or that this is a typical ordering experience.

[Keith Outten]

How is a Rikon Bandsaw (or any other brand from a local dealer) a temporary solution? Most name brand bandsaws give performance comparable to their price. I am not going to look up that Grizzly number, but if you are implying that Rikon is inferior to a Grizzly, well, I'm just going to :) at that.

Different strokes for different folks.. If it's worth waiting 4 months to save $100 or so to you, I guess people like you keep Grizzly in business. Sure, it's a great idea to plan 6 months ahead for a tool you need so you can watch for sales and anticipate backorders, but that's not always possible. If I was the OP and had my heart set on Griz, I'd see which ones were in stock and order a different one. Honestly, I would not wait 4 months for any specific tool. Life is too short.

Paul,

Assuming that an individual spent a lot of time researching various machines and decided on the one he/she wanted based on a particular set of specifications/price/feature list. The Rikon you suggested may be the "best value" machine but that isn't the point I was trying to make.

I purchase machines based on my "Best Value" evaluation. I factor in my needs first, then I look at features and price last. Its not that price is the least important its just that it is more important that a new machine meets my needs first, if it doesn't then the price is a mute point. A more expensive machine rarely fits my best value equation and a machine that is too small won't fit my needs so I would normally decide to wait for the machine that I feel meets my best value determination.

As an example I will spend 15 thousand dollars on a CNC Router but I won't buy a Festool sander. I am sure that Festool makes the best ROS sanders on the market but they don't fit my best value category for my shop and the way I work. I never consider color, brand names or anything else other than my needs, features I feel are valuable to me and price.
.

[jonathan eagle]

Shiraz,
Thanks. Just trying to get an update. I'm looking forward to getting the tool. I already sold my previous grizzly jointer, so I am jointer-less. Planning to also upgrade my bandsaw from the g01148 to get a higher resaw height. It's tough as I don't have the space to just have 2 bandsaws. So I have to sell the first before ordering the replacement.
Will never upgrade my 1023 TS!
Jonathan


Jonathan - I saw a whole pile of them (several containers worth) on the floor at the factory about 3 weeks ago when I was there and they were waiting on one fence part to be re-made. So, like Neil said, all factors have to line up. Now, the common thought process is "how difficult would it be to re-make a simple part". Not very, but sometimes those subs have huge production runs that they have to complete, plus get new material in, which in itself could be a problem nowadays with the material prices the way they are. We are checking on the current status with the factory.

This is not making excuses, but rather explaining just one of a possible 100+ things that could affect delivery. Oh, and while I am on the subject, we do not order one container of bandsaws at a time. Our orders could easily range from 10 to 30 containers at a time. Remember, we stock machines at all three locations and generally have plenty of stock. You don't hear much about the tens of thousands of pounds of machinery we ship EACH day. Indeed, we have the largest selection of bandsaws under one brand in the world and our goal continues to be to have plenty of stock we can sell of every single model at all three of our locations. The moment we find out accurate dates on out of stock items, the computers are updated and the operators have access to that information.

[John Coloccia]

If he wants the equivalent to the Rikon 18", he can order the G0514X and have it next week. The X2 is an upgrade from the Rikon. I don't have anything against Rikon, and I almost bought one, but I have the the 514X2 and I see the Rikon almost every day because of where I work. The X2 is better machine in several areas IN MY OPINION. The 514X would be a more even match and that's available right now.

But beyond that, look at how many different 19" bandsaws Grizzly offers as opposed to Rikon's 2 18" bandsaws. Look at all the 17" offerings....and 14" offerings. Grizzly offers practically as many bandsaws as Rikon offers TOTAL across their entire tool line. For the sake of reason let's get some perspective.

When I order something that's back ordered, I darn well know that the estimates I get are just estimates, and that there's even a chance that they will run into unforeseen difficulties and the item will be discontinued altogether. Then I make an informed decision based on that, and maybe that means I choose something else because I can't live with the uncertainty. It really shouldn't turn into a calamitous event.

I feel for the OP and I know he just needed to vent, and in a way it helps the rest of us make more informed decisions when we're in the same situation, but the general concept that there's something wrong with Grizzly just because they happen to have delays with one particular configuration of one particular bandsaw is a bit myopic. Just the opposite, I think it's bizarre that they strive to keep so many different items in stock at all times and that a large portion of their offerings aren't "special orders". It makes me wonder how Shiraz was able to convince early investors that any of this was a good idea as it seems rather nutty at first glance. :D

[mickey cassiba]

At my former place of employment, I was tasked with purchasing spare/repair part for the multitude of brands of machinery we used.Coming from Italy, Germany, Taiwan, China(yes they are two different places), and the good old USA. One importer I dealt with(no names, I'm not here to bash or promote anyone) told me up front that the part I needed was on backorder, and had been so for two years. This, I feel, is good CS. The importer has no control over his suppliers, except that he can seek out another supplier. Another importer took my order for a part that was urgently needed,(I authorized overnight air delivery), and was insured that "it would be in my hands tomorrow". With red face, the next day I explained to the shop supervisor, after the last UPS truck had run for the day, and still no part, That the CS(an arrogant little snot as I recall) informed me that a post card informing me that the part was BO 60 days, had been mailed out. That is bad CS. Incidentally, some of the worst CS I've received and longest wait times has come from an importer/manufacturer based here in the US. They also will not be named.
My two cents, and worth every bit of it.

[Dan Hintz]

One importer I dealt with told me up front that the part I needed was on backorder, and had been so for two years.
That's not backordered, that's canceled ;)

[Cary Falk]

LIL. There is another reason these bandsaws are on backorder. They are great saws and in great demand. That is a good thing although flustrating.

[Fred Belknap]

At my former place of employment, I was tasked with purchasing spare/repair part for the multitude of brands of machinery we used.Coming from Italy, Germany, Taiwan, China(yes they are two different places), and the good old USA. One importer I dealt with(no names, I'm not here to bash or promote anyone) told me up front that the part I needed was on backorder, and had been so for two years. This, I feel, is good CS. The importer has no control over his suppliers, except that he can seek out another supplier. Another importer took my order for a part that was urgently needed,(I authorized overnight air delivery), and was insured that "it would be in my hands tomorrow". With red face, the next day I explained to the shop supervisor, after the last UPS truck had run for the day, and still no part, That the CS(an arrogant little snot as I recall) informed me that a post card informing me that the part was BO 60 days, had been mailed out. That is bad CS. Incidentally, some of the worst CS I've received and longest wait times has come from an importer/manufacturer based here in the US. They also will not be named.
My two cents, and worth every bit of it.

I like names. It doesn't help much if I don't know who and what I'm dealing with.

[mickey cassiba]

That's not backordered, that's canceled ;)

Just so...I never did order it...I made one.

[scott vroom]

Fair point, and ... I surely got that.

But the reality is that manufacturing a product like Grizzly does -- much like building a house, in the States -- is a carefully orchestrated and hugely complicated ballet.

And ... a HUGE percentage of the things that have to happen, have to happen in a particular order -- otherwise, you halt production and introduce delays.

It counts on -- literally -- THOUSANDS of companies/vendors doing their job perfectly, every time, and having no glitches in THEIR (often equally complicated) supply chains.

It's smart business to run lean inventories, in lean times.

The cost of that IS that you DO run into stock outages, and -- because of what I described above -- you simply cannot reliably give delivery dates that will work every time.

I give Grizzly the benefit of the doubt that -- when they DO give an ETA -- they sincerely believe that's going to BE the delivery date.

Until something else breaks ;)

Neil nailed it. Companies that manufacture OEM products are subject to the delivery commits of dozens, perhaps hundreds of piece part suppliers, each of whom are dependent on their respective raw material suppliers. Supply chains are complex and only as effecient as the weakest link. I worked in mfg ops for 20+ years and can tell you that is not uncommon for a production line to be shut down for a month due to the delivery failure of a single component part supplier. The only way to buffer against these events is to hold excess inventory, which manufactures cannot afford to do and still offer low margin/low cost products.

[Paul Johnstone]

Paul,

Assuming that an individual spent a lot of time researching various machines and decided on the one he/she wanted based on a particular set of specifications/price/feature list. The Rikon you suggested may be the "best value" machine but that isn't the point I was trying to make.

I purchase machines based on my "Best Value" evaluation. I factor in my needs first, then I look at features and price last. .
.

Sure, I can respect that.. I guess my point is that if I have to wait 4 months (or maybe longer) for the Best Value to get to
my door, is it really the best value? At that point, the #2 choice which I can get now looks a lot more attractive.
If the OP really likes Griz, why not get another Griz bandsaw that is actually in stock? I guess other people are willing to wait
an indefinite amount of time for their machine. If I ordered a machine and was told March, then April, then May.. then I read
a post where the president of the company basically said there was a shortage and there's no guarantees of when they'd arrive... Wouldn't you start to question whether choice #1 was really that much better than choice #2?

I get the phsycological trap.. The OP feels commited, he's already waited this long.. There's a tendency in human nature once
you are commited to see something to completion.

[Bruce Heys]

I fell into that psychological trap. On Sept. 20th I ordered a G0634Z. I dutifully called after reaching each predicted arrival date only to receive another push out of 4-6 weeks. As the months went by my inclination to go elsewhere was overcome by my notion that it couldn't possibly be that much longer. I finally realized my folly in early March and cancelled the order. Most likely, I would still be in the que if there had been a Grizzly intiiated effort to communicate.

[Sean Beddow]

I am new to wood working but not to sourcing product overseas. I work in the global sourcing department of a fortune 250 company and can provide some clarity on this issue.

Waiting for a tool you really wants sucks... No two ways about it. There are some factors that work against retailers this time of year. I am not sure where grizzly gets their tools made but these are some global issues

1. Chinese new year: the entire country shuts down the month of february. Factories do not produce or ship products. Factory production takes time to spool back up as they order materials from subsupliers and replace ose workers who never came back after the holiday.

2. This creates a shipping bottle neck in January and March as everyone tries to get product out of the country and into the states.

3. Back to school: believe it or not, the product for back to school start shipping now as well. This is a masive amount of containers that has to be staged over the next few months.

Tis doesn't even go into other issues like if you have a quality issue and have to change the product. Or if the ship you were booking the container on had an issue like it sank or is over booked.

So no matter how well you plan you or forecast there will always be issues

[Jim Barstow]

Grizzly could do themselves a big favor by being proactive on this. I find out the machine is delayed (again) by calling them. Why don't they be send out a message when they know they'll miss the date and say "We're really sorry but we going to be late (again) due to (whatever)"? The fact that I have to call THEM is lousy customer service. I ordered on the web and they have my email so there is absolutely no excuse for not sending out periodic emails giving the status of an order.

[Neil Brooks]

Jim Barstow --

Now THAT ... I totally agree with.

At my last gig ... where Supply Chain Management WAS a BIG part of the job, and the product was flowers -- which don't handle delays particularly well -- I implemented a practice where ... literally ... we proactively scanned the status of shipments, looking for anomalies.

When we FOUND anomalies, we tried to decide what they had in common. Was a plane delayed ? Was there a customs delay ?? Things like that.

When we figured out what was in common, we pulled a list of ALL of THOSE shipments (that had that thing in common), created a beautifully-worded e-mail TO the customer, let them know what happened, what their options were, etc., etc., etc.

It made a world of difference.

And ... when you think about flowers ... naturally ... the stakes were HUGELY high: Valentine's Day ? Mother's Day ??? Quite literally, relationships hinged on our ability to perform, and meet our delivery commitments.

Not quite the same stakes with our 3HP cabinet saw, but ... the same philosophy applies ;)

Much like -- in politics -- "it's the cover-up that kills you --" In retail AND service, you CONSTANTLY hear the same thing (think: airlines): it's not the delay, so much; it's the fact that you didn't communicate with us adequately.

I think Shiraz has figured out that I'm a fan, so ... I'll take this time to just build on your thought, Jim. I think it's an EXCELLENT customer service policy to "push" the information to the consumer, rather than "force" them to "pull" it from Corporate.

In the 80's, I worked in commercial real estate. One thing I learned: on Friday, call ALL of your property-owner/clients, and update them about the status of their vacant retail spaces, and the prospects with whom you're working.

Send them into the weekend thinking GOOD thoughts about their diligent and dedicated agent -- NOT wondering where he is.

[David Helm]

Grizzly could do themselves a big favor by being proactive on this. I find out the machine is delayed (again) by calling them. Why don't they be send out a message when they know they'll miss the date and say "We're really sorry but we going to be late (again) due to (whatever)"? The fact that I have to call THEM is lousy customer service. I ordered on the web and they have my email so there is absolutely no excuse for not sending out periodic emails giving the status of an order.

They did just that for me last year. I ordered the new G1023RLX in January. Original ship date was March. That changed (through no fault of Grizzly's I might ad) several times. I received 4 postcards during this time telling me of changes. I did also stop in at the store a number of times to get updates. The upshot is, I believe they treated me well.

[Jim Barstow]

Part of the source of my frustration is that I own 2 other grizzly machines (12" spiral head jointer and 15" spiral planer). My interaction with them with these machines was great. (I had a setup issue that was quickly resolved over the phone.) I find it really surprising that a company that clearly understands the benefits of the web (compare their web site with eagle tools) uses it so poorly when it comes to order management. Why can't I find that status of an order when I log in to my account? Why can't they send an email update when they get a status update? This information is obviously available online on the internal system since I can hear the customer service rep typing when I ask the status of an order.