Dado Blades... $250+, Really?

[Mike OMelia]

Someone please explain why a dado blade set should be so expensive. And if not, what is a reasonable price point. Thanks,

Mike

[craig greene]

Mike, I don't understand it either. My woodworking is only as a hobbiest, if I was doing it in a full blown shop then I might think differently. For my use I get a great cut and good bottoms with an Oshlun 8" set. I paid $80 dollars for it with a 20% off coupon from Rockler. If the $250+ sets are better than this it would not be worth it, it is not $150 away from perfect.

[Mike Heidrick]

You can find the SD208 Freud for $79.99 some days at Farm and Fleet. It is definately worth that. I also own a Ridge carbide 10" (1" arbor) for the RAS and it is great and was less than $200 at a WW show.

[Larry Edgerton]

Why is a Porsche $100k when I can buy a Kia for $13k. Different needs, different costs. Buy what you need.

[Matt Meiser]

Think about it this way--a good saw blade is say $50-$100, usually closer to the latter. You are buying 2 of those, plus several more 2-4 tooth blades.

[Bill Huber]

To add to what Matt said, you have to have completely different tooling for the chippers and you sell one dado blade set to a bunch of others blades, so you have to make the money some way. You also have the packageing which cost a lot more so you can keep everything together the chippers, blades and spacers.

The less of an item you sell the more you have to mark it up to make money.

[Chris Fournier]

Not only do you have two blades and several chippers as the others have pointed out; the manufacturer has a new problem - all of those blades must not only be sharp, they must be the same diameter when sharp! Extra work for the mfgr and the sharpening service. This may not sound like much but it adds to the cost of goods sold.

I spent over $250 on my first 8" dado set and that was about 18 years ago. I have seen quite a few cheap sets (purchased by pals who didn't want to blow $250) and I've seen how they cut. In my experience the cheap sets couldn't hold a candle to the expensive ones. A couple guys actually returned the chapos and bought the Freud set that I had.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.....what is a reasonable price point.......

You get what you pay for. Just decide where you want to sit on the price-performance curve.

If it is an infrequent event, then don't get a set at all. Run 2 single blade kerfs to define the outer edges, run a couple more to hog out the waste, then chisel or router plane the bottom - none of that surface will ever show anyway, you just need some precision at the "show ends".

[Greg Peterson]

Inexpensive tools are not just inexpensive, they often times fail to live up to expectations. Buy a cheap tool and you will certainly discover your expectations are in need of calibration.

[Larry Fox]

Go off and make 1 cut with a Forrest Dado King and let us know if you still don't get it. I have had mine for years, still on the original sharpening and is right on every time. I winced when I bought it but it earns it's keep in terms of accuracy, ease of setup and quality of cut.

[Chip Lindley]

Someone please explain why a dado blade set should be so expensive. And if not, what is a reasonable price point. Thanks,

Mike


You get what you pay for. Just decide where you want to sit on the price-performance curve.

Sometimes you get MORE than you pay for, IF you have no pride! lol I rarely buy new, so my value system differs from many. Couple of years ago, I grabbed a nice Freud 508 8" Super Dado off eBay for about $100. I certainly got my $100-worth; the dado set has been used some, but in excellent condition.

There is always somebody to pay the sticker price so items can depreciate down to my level on the food chain. (Imma Bottom Feeder!) I have never bought a brand new vehicle; I always buy last year's model with low miles. I let somebody else take the hit for all that depreciation.

A month ago I purchased a brand new Onsrud 10", 1" bore dado for my big RAS off eBay for about $75 with free shipping! Heck Of A Deal! That seller has 8" and 10" dado sets at very decent prices because all have a positive blade hook. Those are still as usable as ever, and give a much cleaner cut than neg. hook sets, IMO. But, I suppose today's ultra-safety-conscious climate has put them in the bargain basement.

[Dennis Heskett]

I have to agree on Forrest! I have them on all my saws and the difference is amazing. No chip out and sanded edges.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Sometimes you get MORE than you pay for.....I rarely buy new...........

Chip - you're the master at this - it sometimes almost seems like people contact YOU with great deals.............:p :p :p

[Rod Sheridan]

I recently purchased a new 6 inch dado set.

It was an FS Tools 53DL06, which has a left and right blade of course, as well as a 1/16", 2 X 1/8" and 1 X 1/4" chipper.

It was just over $200, after boring to 30mm and adding two pin holes to each part it was just under $300.

A good dado set is ground as a set, so that each blade and chipper are the exact same diameter, which results in a groove that looks like it was cutter with a shaper cutter.

You do get what you pay for, and I've never been sorry I bought any FS Tools tooling...........Regards, Rod.

[Tom Walz]

A more expensive tool should be a better quality tool.

For the sake of argument let us define quality as total runout combined with tool life. Then a quality saw blade would be one that makes really good cuts for a long, long time.

Even if you accept this oversimplified definition it still gets hugely complicated.

Examples:
1. The quality of the cut depends on the quality of the machine you use to sharpen the blade. A top-quality sharpening system can run up to a million dollars. I saw blade that is sharpened with many passes, taking off a small amount of the material each time, generally performs better than the saw blade sharpened in a single pass. However it's more time on your million-dollar machine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09-VSzL4ys&feature=related

2. The quality of the saw tip starts with the mine where the tungsten and cobalt is extracted. Different mines have different amounts of trace metals in them. It is easier to get 99.9% plus pure metal out of some mines than others.

3. Tungsten carbide powder is pressed into saw tip shape using molds. Tungsten carbide powder is very abrasive so the molds wear out. As the molds wear out you run into problems with the tungsten carbide powder not packing properly. Thus you have to replace the molds on a regular basis. A single mold can cost a few thousand dollars. If you replace the molds on a regular basis it is a little more expensive than letting quality slip before you replace the molds.

4. Top-quality saw tips are no longer simple tungsten carbide grains cemented together with cobalt. They have additions such as titanium, nitrogen, vanadium, niobium and the binder may have additions such as chrome and nickel. Using these other metals adds to the cost several ways. There is additional cost for the metals. There is a great deal more additional time spent mixing. You also have to have a much more sophisticated sintering process to get the saw tips to shrink and harden properly.

5. Better quality tools should have better steel. You can use plain steel or you can add a little nickel and other metals to it which makes it tougher and longer wearing.

6. How well the saw plate holds up in use depends on how exactly it is hardened. If you want to hit a particular Rockwell point, say Rc 45, you need much better equipment than you would if you're happy with somewhere between 43 and 47.

7. Saw plate needs to be tempered and ground to make up flat. Doing this once can make a pretty good saw plate. Doing it twice makes a much better saw plate.

The cleanliness of the coolant used to grind the saw blades is important. The grit of the diamond in the diamond wheels used to grind the saw blades is important. And it goes on and on and on.

Making a better tool is exactly like making a better piece of furniture. It takes excellent materials, really good equipment and a high level of skill and dedication.

Having said all that I have to say that The price of tools may or may not be related to the quality of the tools.

[scott spencer]

Top flight blades in general are on the expensive side, and dado sets tend to cost more than single blades. If you do your homework you don't really have to spend $250 to get a top shelf set. The 6" Infinity Dadonator is ~ $150, the 8" is ~ $180...hard to imagine any dado set eclipsing this one.

The DeWalt/Delta 7670 isn't quite top shelf but at ~$100 it gives a taste of the best, and is a better performer than any other < $100 set I've encountered.

[David Weaver]

I guess if you're buying foreign manufacture blades, then $250 seems high.

When I had a TS, I had a forrest dado king set. I never did use it much, but when I did, it was like butter.

I really don't see why anyone would think $250 was that high for a *high quality* domestically manufactured dado set.

Buy yourself some steel, some bits of carbide, and a torch and see if you can make a set as good as that one.

There are good bargain sets, there will always be something cheaper from china.

But a dado king really is a fantastic thing to use, and I'm sure the infinity and other similar quality domestic manufacturer super-quality sets are, too.

I've got a lot of sharpening stones that cost more than $250. it doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all, and I'll bet there is industrial quality tools that make it look like pocket change.

[Erik Christensen]

I look at tooling costs from the other side of the equation. How many $$ worth of material will I pass through the tool during its life and how much better performance would I get with a more expensive tool? I use baltic birch ply for my case work and solid maple or cherry for drawers and face frames. Even a non-pro like me can put many thousands of dollars of material through a dado set in the course of a year. My 240$ ridge carbide 10" dado set makes perfect flat bottom dado's with minimal tearout on the upper edge - in my opinion it pays for itself every year in reduced waste and superior results.

If you use a dado set less often and on less expensive materials you might think a less expensive set is a better choice. No right or wrong answer here - just what is best for you.

[eugene thomas]

i used a dado blade bought from grizzly for years. and for some reason never used it to cut dados in veneer plywood. the router was the way went. bought 8" dado king from fellow creaker on here and now i use table saw to cut dados. lot easer, faster and haave no tear out. not saying that is the best blade but I have No regreats for buying it. Just wish woudl of not waited so long.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

I have a 20 year old Freud dado set that still works great, and was $120. I've also used a Forrest set, and yes, it's that much better.

[Mike Schuch]

I have a Freud 8" set for my table saw and a Sysmatic 12" set for my radial arm saw. I really love the Sysmatic!!!!

My buddy, the hack, bought the $70 Harbor Freight 8" set against my recommendation and gets comparable results to my Freud... very flat smooth dados. What a Jerk!!!!

[David Kumm]

If you watch you can pick up forrest or freud super fine used for 1/2 to 2/3 the price of new. Often there are new in box or used once for not much more than an average set. I have bought several that way for use on saws and shapers. Dave

[johnny means]

You get what you pay for. I don't think this makes a difference for your average hobbiest. But if you cut up and mill your sheet goods 40 sheets at a time or if your typical milling session involves a few hundred board feet of lumber, the first cut might look great but your last cut will show the deficiencies of cheap tooling.

[Mike OMelia]

Well, I think this thread has done its job... educated me properly. Thank you! As for all the "you get what you pay for" comments, I really get that, and expected it. But the other comments concerning length of service, ease of setup, etc... thats what I am looking for. I did look at the forrest. One site listed a 1-3 month lead time! I do not anticipate using a dado very often, but often enough to justify the $150 price point.

Thanks

Mike

[Ben Davis]

3. Tungsten carbide powder is pressed into saw tip shape using molds. Tungsten carbide powder is very abrasive so the molds wear out. As the molds wear out you run into problems with the tungsten carbide powder not packing properly. Thus you have to replace the molds on a regular basis. A single mold can cost a few thousand dollars. If you replace the molds on a regular basis it is a little more expensive than letting quality slip before you replace the molds.

4. Top-quality saw tips are no longer simple tungsten carbide grains cemented together with cobalt. They have additions such as titanium, nitrogen, vanadium, niobium and the binder may have additions such as chrome and nickel. Using these other metals adds to the cost several ways. There is additional cost for the metals. There is a great deal more additional time spent mixing. You also have to have a much more sophisticated sintering process to get the saw tips to shrink and harden properly.

5. Better quality tools should have better steel. You can use plain steel or you can add a little nickel and other metals to it which makes it tougher and longer wearing.

6. How well the saw plate holds up in use depends on how exactly it is hardened. If you want to hit a particular Rockwell point, say Rc 45, you need much better equipment than you would if you're happy with somewhere between 43 and 47.

7. Saw plate needs to be tempered and ground to make up flat. Doing this once can make a pretty good saw plate. Doing it twice makes a much better saw plate.

The cleanliness of the coolant used to grind the saw blades is important. The grit of the diamond in the diamond wheels used to grind the saw blades is important. And it goes on and on and on.

Tom,
Wow! What an informative post. It sounds like you have some sort of materials engineering background!

My problem, though, is where do I find a saw blade that:
(1) has carbide tips that are made from titanium, nitrogen, vanadium, niobium with a binder that has additions such as chrome and nickel to the cobalt and...
(2) has these carbide tips pressed in mouldes that are frequently changed to ensure top quality and...
(3) is made from steel with a little nickel and other metals added to it which makes it tougher and longer wearing which...
(4) is hardended properly to a very specific Rockwell point and...
(5) is tempered and ground to twice to make a much better saw plate????

Virtually none of this is explained on the literature / advertisement of saw blades.

I guess that leads to the follow subjective question: Who makes top flight [table saw] blades?

[Rod Sheridan]

Tom, you can start with

http://www.fstoolcorp.com/Home.aspx

Made in North America..................Regards, Rod.

[Tom Walz]

FS Tools is indeed an excellent manufacturer. We have done a wee bit of work with them over the years but not very much.

There is a huge level of technology for the commercial cutting tool industry that is generally just not offered to the retail level of the cutting tool industry. We are working to change that.

We choose to sell Tenryu and Popular Tools saw blades because they meet our standards. We sell a line of saw blades called World’s Best that are custom built for us by a couple of different manufacturing companies around the US.

Typically the steel saw plate will come from Grasche, Peerless Saw Company or Western Saw Company. All offer several grades of steel and all do their own cutting, heat treating grinding and tempering.

The list I gave listed different options to make advanced grades of saw tips. It is unusual to see all these used in a particular grade. Our Cermet 2 grades for man-made materials will have a post manufacturing step that introduces a Boron metalloid. Our Super C grade for sawmills and similar uses a high percentage of Cobalt and a nanograin structure. In some cases a metal will be induced to control grain growth.

There is sometimes a little literature on retail saw blades. I did an analysis on some Freud blades and the package says they have TiCo tips that work better. That's all it says, though. From the name I would guess that they have Titanium in them by the lab analysis didn't find any Titanium so it may be just a wee small amount. However the tips do run much better than standard carbide tips.

It is unusual to find anyone that really cares about the chemistry and the manufacturing of tools. All they really care about is how well they run. This is, of course, right and proper.

I love the material science side and have been in the business 30 years. I think there is a huge amount of real beauty in the incredible work and precision that goes into making high quality tools. It is very similar to the incredible work and precision that goes into making high quality furniture.

Unfortunately, I do not have the skill to make high quality furniture. My woodworking skills are best described as “It ain't pretty, but it won't fall down.” However I do seem to have been blessed with a certain understanding of the chemistry of materials. The tools you buy today are much, much better than the tools you bought a few years ago. I had a part in that, no matter how small.

Of course, I do have a dream about someday having a piece of my furniture on the cover of Fine Woodworking magazine.

[doug faist]

Mike - in my early woodworking days I used two different dado sets; one a "wobble blade" and one a cheap (<$50) set. Neither produced the kind of dadoes I needed. I got rounded bottoms, steps on the bottom and lots of tear out.

I finally got a Amana set about 10 years ago. At that time it was about $200 and I thought I was nuts! But the set was highly recommended by my woodworking guru, so I bit the bullet.

In 10 years I've never regretted the expense. Flat bottoms, sharp corners and NO tear out.

You do, indeed, get what you pay for. BUT, if you don't need the accuracy, don't spend the money. You may well get by with a less expensive set.

Doug

[Paul McGaha]

,Just to add my $.02, I think, When it comes to blades, You should go for a premium blade like a Freud or Forrest or some of the others.

A saw is only as good as its blade.

I bought a Freud Super Dado set maybe 6 or 8 years ago. Perfect dados every time.

Good blades last long enough for the price to be spread out over a few years, for hobbiest use anyway.

PHM

[keith ouellette]

my first set was an inexpensive one. I don't remember who made it but it was around $60. I took it back. I now have the frued dial a width which I think cost me $279 and I can easily see why it did.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet but when I was talking to someone in the know about dado blades he explained to me that dado sets need to be made to a much higher tolerance than regular saw blades because there are multiple blades stacked together so the balance is even more important because of the weight. My first cheap set did add a lot of vibration.

[Peter Quinn]

Well, you buy a cheep set, it makes cuts that look ok in easy to mill woods, on test pieces. But you start doing Joinery with a dado set, or working with expensive and delicate veneers on plywood that cost $220 a sheet, and at $200 dado set doesnt seem as expensive as fixing errors or defects introduced by cheep tooling. If your needs are basic, and the cheep dados meet your expectations, than to buy more may be a waste. But if you need or demand top performance from dado tooling, it's going to cost more.

[Larry Edgerton]

Well, you buy a cheep set, it makes cuts that look ok in easy to mill woods, on test pieces. But you start doing Joinery with a dado set, or working with expensive and delicate veneers on plywood that cost $220 a sheet, and at $200 dado set doesnt seem as expensive as fixing errors or defects introduced by cheep tooling. If your needs are basic, and the cheep dados meet your expectations, than to buy more may be a waste. But if you need or demand top performance from dado tooling, it's going to cost more.

Good way to put it Peter.

I paid $450 fifteen years ago to have Forrest make me a 10" to fit my slider with 1 1/8" bore and a 1 1/4" capacity for width, and have not regretted that expense one bit. I had not thought about all of the moneys worth of material that has run across that saw, but you have a good point. The blade never ruined any of the material, and made my work just a bit better.

I didn't want to say what I paid being as $250 is too much, but personally I am happy with my purchase.

Larry

[glenn bradley]

I learned early that the best saw, when setup well, will cut poorly with a poor cutter (imagine that). Great answer from Tom. You are paying for carbide, the quality and amount of it, the quality of the manufacturing and assembly, etc. If I'm spending around $100 for a dado stack and it is just "OK", I would be upset. I would go the extra $100 and have one that will make me happy every time I use it. I got a Freud SD-508 with a 25% off coupon at Rockler years ago. I still smile every time I use it.