Lee Valley and Harbor Freight - same thing?

[Bryan Ericson]

An interesting observation -

Harbor Freight's reputation for generally poor-quality items is such that I would never expect to see the exact same thing sold by a more reputable seller such as Lee Valley. However, while looking for a set of transfer punches I noticed the following:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=54892&cat=1,43456,54892
http://www.harborfreight.com/28-piece-transfer-punch-set-3577.html

If those aren't the exact same items, then I must be going crazy. I guess now I've seen yet one more thing I never expected I'd see. :eek:

[bob blakeborough]

It is a punch set... Why wouldn't you expect to see more than one retailer who carries them? Kind of odd to assume otherwise... Now if Lee Valley was the manufacturer of a tool that Harbour Freight sells I could see it being a bit of a surprise but a generic punch set? Really?

[Dan Hahr]

Really? Well, yeah. When I buy the lower priced stuff at Lee Valley, I do not expect it to be the same quality that I expect when I shop at HF. Especially when it costs 50% more.

With that said, I don't suppose that it would make much of a difference for the intended purpose of knocking a dimple into some wood. Having bought some very cheap letter punches from HF, I'd be ticked off if that quality came from LV.

Still love LV, I just don't shop there for economy type stuff.

Dan

[Craig Coney]

Wonder if Grizzly and Northern Tool have the same offering?

[john davey]

Well, I bought the 7oz hammer from lee valley listed here:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=46919&cat=1,53193&ap=1

Along with 8 other things including the skew block plane and the wolverine jig. It was a hefty bill. To be honest at $9.50 I did not expect much from the lee valley hammer . As it turns out it came with a lose head. Where lee valley excels even with these lower priced items is the customer service. I called them and explained what was wrong. The woman politely asked me if I tried to fix the hammer. I explained I did everything I could think of that would not possible void the warranty. She explained it wouldn't, told me another was in the mail and I did not have to bother sending the old one back. All of this took me less than 2 minutes to a toll free phone number. It most likely is the same hammer HF sells but I'm going to continue to buy them from lee valley for this reason....John

[mickey cassiba]

IME transfer punches are disposable tools...if you choose to buy them at LV(which is your right) you are paying for a disposable tool with an impressive label. A disposable tool nonetheless. I have a set of Starrett transfer punches, the points break off just as easily as the HF's do. Don't know how much they cost new, but I'll bet they were a bit higher than the LV's. I got 'em at a flea market for $4. If I had to buy new, I'd probably gone to HF.

[Derek Gilmer]

Really? Well, yeah. When I buy the lower priced stuff at Lee Valley, I do not expect it to be the same quality that I expect when I shop at HF. Especially when it costs 50% more.

Volume prices from HF and customer support "tax" at LV.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Are there HF's in Canada?

Pam

[Paul Saffold]

ENCO has them for $7.95.

[David Weaver]

Are there HF's in Canada?

Pam

If not, Canadian Tire looks to have an awful lot of the same things.

Packages that say stuff like

"POWER DRILL!!"

"SAND BLASTER KIT!!"

(rest of the post not directed at Pam)

I have the transfer punches from HF. They're fine, they serve the purpose. LV might carry a lot of that stuff so that they can be a full-service store in canada. Can't imagine what their transfer punches would cost if they were US-made machinist quality or swiss or something, and guarantee 95% of the people buying that level of stuff (if they ever sold one) would be wasting their money.

You can't show me many mail order places that don't sell something from China. Don't point me to LN, the last time I got Camelia oil, the bottle was stamped "product of China".

And since then, we've found out that camelia oil is pretty much perfumed mineral oil. What a surprise.

Save the money where you can. Cut LV some slack for being reasonable and not putting in a catalog entry convincing all of us (i only use transfer punches for plane making) that we need a $125 us-made set of transfer punches.

[John Coloccia]

LV the same as Harbor Freight? LOL. Have fun with your Harbor Freight planes and chisels.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

LV the same as Harbor Freight? LOL. Have fun with your Harbor Freight planes and chisels.

Ugh, don't start on that! My first "spokeshave" came from an HF trailer truck sale. I knew nothing about handtools, but had heard spokeshaves were a great tool for shaping guitar necks. I don't think you could have screwed up a spokeshave harder if you tried. It didn't adjust at first. The warped blade that appeared to have been punched from a tin can, was put in the tool while the paint (which was on everything, including the bed and adjusting screws) was still wet. As far as I can tell, they masked the the sole and adjusting rods with tape and dipped the whole thing.

The thing that terrifies me is when I see HF catalogs, and they sell stuff like lifts to hold up vehicles to work on them. They show a truck or a big ol' van being lifted in the air. My experience with HF tools does not make me think, "hey, that's the company I want to trust my life in, lifting my car over my head with their fine, quality products!". I mean, I've seen them seem to be able to make anything with a power cord a death trap...

[george wilson]

I doubt that anyone but the Chinese make transfer punches these days. That could be the problem on any number of lower cost items. I haven't seen any more expensive transfer punches offered anywhere.

About black rubber hammers: I had a Stanley black rubber dead blow hammer. It eventually started turning white,and cracked open. I haven't had that happen with my Chinese rubber hammers yet. Must just be by luck that their material holds up better. Maybe the Stanley was Chinese,too,with their name molded into it????? Whatever its origin,it was useless after it cracked to pieces.

[john brenton]

I echo everything that was already said...but I also would like to add that there are a few fantastic items at harbor freight. I'm extremely happy with their HSS turning chisel set, and I have a heavy brass hammer that is a steal for the price. Not all their stuff is complete junk...but I can't STAND the smell of that store. It reminds me of getting up early in the morning and getting all the cast iron pipe fittings for work...bleahhh. I hate that smell.


An interesting observation -
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=54892&cat=1,43456,54892
http://www.harborfreight.com/28-piece-transfer-punch-set-3577.html
:eek:

[Chris Fournier]

The OP has made a very good point. LV sells Chinese junk just like everyone else, but at a higher price. This is not to say that LV only sells junk Chinese tooling - not at all!

LV also comes up with new doodads that are made in America in every flyer. These doodads are useless but neat looking and people buy them, this is part of their business plan and it is not really much of a service to us woodworkers but it is good for the bottom line at LV.

Look at this new tool: http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/OnlineCatalog.aspx?id=177ae9e9

Hmm, I wonder if my old Starret combination square could be made to do this? For the last 100 years anyways. This is neither useful nor ingenius, it is redundant. This kind of product is what I really dislike, it seperates you from your money but that's about it. Buy the Starret combo square and figure out how to use it, that is money well spent. This drill rod and anodized trinket is of no worth if you have already bought a combo square.

This is not to say that LV is a bad company, my point is that they are a company driven to make profit and in doing so they often times sell goods that are good to sell but not really "good" buys for the woodworker. The core of their offerings are solid for certain but the fluffy stuff like Chinese punches and Czek-Edge Rule Stops are not.

Buy the real deal and use it whenever possible, avoid the novelty trinkets that are poor reinventions of existing tools. You will have more and better kit if you purchase like this.

[Jim Pletcher]

About Camelia Oil:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_seed_oil

[David Weaver]

From what I understand, what we get is not pure camelia oil. There is a thread on here about it.

Nobody who sells it spoke up, so i'm assuming that after someone else definitively stated that what we're sold for tool care is mostly mineral oil (with camelia oil added for scent), that's the conclusion until someone in the know tells us.

[george wilson]

There is nothing wrong with using mineral oil anyway,is there? Starrett instrument oil is just high grade mineral oil.

[David Weaver]

No, just no reason to pay the same for a half pint as a full gallon would cost if you just bought food-grade light mineral oil in the first place.

[Erik France]

I have the HF punch set. I also noticed the similarities between it and the one in the Lee Valley catalog. I think the LV set used to be at a lower price though. I seem to remember noting that it was only a couple dollars more than what HF was asking.

LV introduced a drill press fence and table last year. The fence is extremely similar to a router fence that HF carried. Same small dust port size, same hold down, etc. I picked up a couple on closeout from HF and am using one on my drill press. (works very well) http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=63315&cat=1,240,41060 The only differences that I can see from the LV photographs is the paint job. I'm sure they came from the same manufacturer. Below is an old ad image of the HF fence.
190305

I would bet that LV holds the manufacturers to higher quality standards than HF. For example: I purchased the small thread ID kit from LV a while back. It was a nice little package. I later got a letter from LV stating that they were going to refund my money because they found that the kit didn't meet their standards. They said the printing may come off the ID plate. They said that I did not need to return the kit and they also included a printed card to go with the kit in case the printing wears off.

Some LV products from different manufacturers are made to different specs too. The handles on the Narex chisels are not the same as some available elsewhere.

[Bill Miltner]

The OP has made a very good point. LV sells Chinese junk just like everyone else, but at a higher price. This is not to say that LV only sells junk Chinese tooling - not at all!

LV also comes up with new doodads that are made in America in every flyer. These doodads are useless but neat looking and people buy them, this is part of their business plan and it is not really much of a service to us woodworkers but it is good for the bottom line at LV.

Look at this new tool: http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/OnlineCatalog.aspx?id=177ae9e9

Hmm, I wonder if my old Starret combination square could be made to do this? For the last 100 years anyways. This is neither useful nor ingenius, it is redundant. This kind of product is what I really dislike, it seperates you from your money but that's about it. Buy the Starret combo square and figure out how to use it, that is money well spent. This drill rod and anodized trinket is of no worth if you have already bought a combo square.

This is not to say that LV is a bad company, my point is that they are a company driven to make profit and in doing so they often times sell goods that are good to sell but not really "good" buys for the woodworker. The core of their offerings are solid for certain but the fluffy stuff like Chinese punches and Czek-Edge Rule Stops are not.

Buy the real deal and use it whenever possible, avoid the novelty trinkets that are poor reinventions of existing tools. You will have more and better kit if you purchase like this.


I don't see how you can compare Chinese punches and the Czek-Edge rule stop.. not even in an alternate universe. I certainly do not see the rule stop as "fluff", it is quite useful when doing repeat measurements the are longer than what a 12" square will allow. Maybe it's not for you, but it is well made and useful for others.

[Jim Neeley]

II would bet that LV holds the manufacturers to higher quality standards than HF.

We've seen this for years, where you see a no-clone of a good-name product, made in countries where patent law is nonexistant or not enforced. I've been told they were likely made in the same factory, just the good-name one had good inspectors on site to assure that quality. It sounds like LV may be one of those who experienced a system breakdown on their thread kit, so refunding the $$$ to their customers.

Have you wondered what these companies, coming from countries where "Caveat Emptor" reigns supreme, do with the products that fail their high-standards customers requirements? Have you wondered if they sold them as no-name clones? If they are "seconds" maybe that's why they're cheaper??

The concept reminds me of the early days of floppy disks in computers... where they sold "single-sided" and "double-sided" disks. In the early days the failure rate was high enough they strived to make all as double-sided but those that failed QA on one side...

Just a thought to ponder...

[george wilson]

It is possible that the 2 sets of punches could look just the same,and have the same stand,but 1 set could be made of better toolsteel. The only way to know would be to buy both sets,and check both for hardness.

[Bryan Ericson]

When I made the original post, I just thought I'd stumbled across something interesting that others might be interested in - I had no ulterior motive and I wasn't trying to make a point. I love Lee Valley, as I think most of us do, and I was just startled when I saw what I assume is the exact same item offered at HF. I've looked around some more, and this is what I found after just a few minutes of searching:

http://www.jcwhitney.com/28-pc-transfer-punch-set/p2007994.jcwx
http://grizzly.com/products/G5651
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2031
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=68528&group_ID=2718&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
http://www.ioffer.com/i/192004408
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=830-0100

These all look to be the same product, just with different bases. Could it be that there are only one or two companies left in the world making transfer punches, and there's really no choice left? Or maybe, as George pointed out, one company makes them all but uses different materials? The Snap-On set in particular, at a price of more than $50, would leave me furious if I bought it and then found I could get the same thing for 80% less from somewhere else. I guess for me, the lesson is that I need to be careful of what I'm buying - the seller's reputation alone is no longer enough to go by. Thank goodness for places like SMC, where people can discuss and learn from each other so that we're not all of us making the same mistake over and over again.

[David Weaver]

If you ever want to enlighten yourself about where a lot of the stuff in the different mail order catalogs comes from, go to alibaba and look around under tools. You'll start finding all kinds of things you know you've seen in several places, except they'll have no labels and they'll have a contact name to get them in lots of 500+, etc.

I know it's been said on here before that a lot of places were selling grinders, etc, where the cost of getting the large volume was 10% of the sale price or less.

If you ever find a shop that says x% over cost sale, you will quickly learn why catalogs sell a lot of chinese stuff (this comment is exclusive of LV, because they are one of the few catalogs who sells some imported stuff ,but still a huge volume of US, canadian, japanese and european stuff).

Now that I've seen the sellers on alibaba and how you can obtain the stuff, all of the mcfeely, klingspor, etc catalogs all look the same to me. I can hardly walk in rockler any longer, and it's just up the street from me. They just don't have much of anything I want, but I have a feeling they've almost been forced into the position of selling all of the imported stuff because that's the only place a lot of non-exclusive retailers can get enough margin to exist.

So, anyway, don't trouble LV for selling something you wouldn't have thought about buying there, anyway. Making an extra $5 on a set of punches is hardly a crime. Pushing a favorite place to match the lowest price from every single other place in the world or be all things to all people is a way to watch them go out of business fast.

[Bruce Page]

Bryan, in appearance, a transfer punch is a transfer punch is a transfer punch. Every transfer punch I have seen or used over the last 40 years looks exactly the same with the same black oxide plating. Just because one product looks identical to another doesn’t mean they came out of the same factory.
Pictured is a set that I bought in the mid 80’s, note that they look identical to the HF but I can guarantee you that these weren’t made in China. Also note that I have used these dozens of times and haven’t broken a tip yet.

[David Weaver]

Bruce - could be a set like yours was sent over there to copy!

Probably wouldn't come back in copies in that nice base, though.

[Chris Fournier]

Bruce - could be a set like yours was sent over there to copy!

Probably wouldn't come back in copies in that nice base, though.

I agree David, they can look the same but the metal in most Chinese tools seems to be most anything that can be melted. The machining is generally getting better but the raw materials are pretty suspect.

[Erik France]

Probably wouldn't come back in copies in that nice base, though.Check some of Bryan's links.
Looks like the base was copied too. :D

[David Weaver]

I figure they're breakable tools. Sharp points that I'm usually going to ding into O1 steel if I use them at all, brass if they're lucky.

Very little that comes from china is close to the quality of the originals, hopefully it doesn't sound like I'm saying they're the same.

I do *not* use chinese measuring tools when measuring things in thousandths. they may work OK, but I just don't. I know people say you never need to measure something like that woodworking, but those people probably don't build many tools.

But for some things, like an optical center punch and for transfer punches, for what I do with them, I just can't (well, maybe won't is a better word) pay for something I will probably beat.

As far as anything that's melted, I remember a story not long ago that someone was in china watching drill bits being made and I guess they were only hardening the commonly used sizes and dipping the rest of them in something to color them to make them look either tempered or like they had a titanium nitride coating on them, and leaving them unhardened (hopefully i got all of those details corect). The (now fourth hand) story was that the guy at the factory said something along the lines that "everyone knows americans only use four of the sizes in the set, anyway".

I have some of those bits that you have to sharpen every time you use them!!

[David Weaver]

Check some of Bryan's links.
Looks like the base was copied too. :D

You're right!

I know a guy who used to make stuff in the US. He basically lost his business of copyrighted material to forgers. they copied his stuff so close that one of the originals someone sent to them had a dent in it and every single copied reprint showed the dent.

I guess I should've known better to assume they wouldn't just copy the base, too.

[John Coloccia]

re: tools and tool vendors in general

Even if it's the same exact tool, my belief is that there is generally more value in a Lee Valley (or other reputable seller's) offering than the Harbor Freight offering. Presumably, someone has done the leg work of insuring that the tool is of sufficient quality to sell with a clear conscience. That's worth an extra couple of bucks to me.

Not every HF sells is junk. Back in my airplane building days, I had bought quite a few "disposable" tools and other equipment from HF. Sometimes I needed something to work maybe one time...the nice tool was $100 and the HF version was $10, or something like that. There was quite a bit I bought that lasted for just a few minutes, but other tools are still kicking and ended up being quite a good value. Just as an example off the top of my head, I have one of their shop lifts and it's behaved flawlessly for almost 10 years now. That was quite a good value! As another example, I have an air nibbler that I needed to have function for about 2 minutes worth of work. It went about 1 minutes and started spitting out oil from every where imaginable. The thing still works...I wrap it with a towel when I need to use it. It's junk, but for that once every 5 years I need it, it's good enough.

I would expect if there's any overlap between LV, HF and/or anyone else, the leg work has been done for me and the tool is consistent with the quality of the seller's reputation.

By the way, my Harbor Freight transfer punch measures .313" for 5/16" (I went downstairs and picked one out at random). This makes is unusable in a 5/16" hole as it's now an interference fit, not the slightly undersized fit as it should be. Even if it's from the same manufacturer, somehow I doubt that the LV set is just flat out defective as mine is. I've been wrong before but I have to think that if they started getting scores of returns and complaints they would either drop the product or otherwise get the problem fixed. As an engineer who's gone direct to many companies for certain items, I can tell you that just because items look identical and are labelled identically doesn't mean that it's the same item. You'd be amazed at how different identical items can be depending on what you asked for and what you're willing to pay. Often times, it really is the "identical" item but you're just paying them to select the ones that happen to meet your spec, while someone else elects to take a wider tolerance at a lower cost and they get what they get.

I don't mind paying a little more hoping that LV (or anyone else for that matter) has saved me some aggravation by weeding out the junk. I think there's value there.

[Angela micinski]

Even if it's the same exact tool, my belief is that there is generally more value in a Lee Valley (or other reputable seller's) offering than the Harbor Freight offering. Presumably, someone has done the leg work of insuring that the tool is of sufficient quality to sell with a clear conscience. That's worth an extra couple of bucks to me.

Really? It's the same exact tool. You said so yourself. But it has a different value? That doesn't sound right when I saynit out loud but maybe it's just me.

[Andrae Covington]

...As far as anything that's melted, I remember a story not long ago that someone was in china watching drill bits being made and I guess they were only hardening the commonly used sizes and dipping the rest of them in something to color them to make them look either tempered or like they had a titanium nitride coating on them, and leaving them unhardened (hopefully i got all of those details corect). The (now fourth hand) story was that the guy at the factory said something along the lines that "everyone knows americans only use four of the sizes in the set, anyway"...

You got the basic gist of it.:) I think I posted a link to that in a thread a while back... I think in your thread about buying a Baldor bench grinder, as part of the story was about how the cheap grinders are made (scary:eek:).

It was from John Economaki's blog.
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/2010/10/25/5-for-a-18-twist-drill-only-in-america/

[Angela micinski]

That's actually really funny.

[John Coloccia]

Really? It's the same exact tool. You said so yourself. But it has a different value? That doesn't sound right when I saynit out loud but maybe it's just me.

My time is valuable to me. It's not valuable to you, but if you hired me to do work for you it would be very valuable to you too! :D You'd get very upset at me if I handed you a $50 bill for researching transfer punches in an effort to save you $5.

[David Weaver]

You got the basic gist of it.:) I think I posted a link to that in a thread a while back... I think in your thread about buying a Baldor bench grinder, as part of the story was about how the cheap grinders are made (scary:eek:).

It was from John Economaki's blog.
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/2010/10/25/5-for-a-18-twist-drill-only-in-america/

Yeah, the baldor grinder was a frivolous spend, but I do like it a lot! Since this sort of decision is in-topic, a chinese made tool with the balancing system would've been fine, I think, though it grates on me a little that I'd be almost certain a retailer makes a lot more money on a $125 chinese grinder than baldor and the mail order place made on my $290 grinder (and add to that $40 for two new wheels and another $70 or so for balancers, which do help no matter the price of the grinder).

Thanks for the refresher on the link. I'll have to go back and look how many details I "misremembered".

[Dave Anderson NH]

Before bashing mainland Chinese products completely there are few things you need to remember. Almost all of our televisions and much of our electronics come from there and they are just fine in general quality and the way they perform. The basic equation is the same worldwide, you get what you pay for (mostly). Right now with our horrible balance of payments deficit we have placed the Chinese in the position of having so much of our money and our debt that they now have the most modern and sophisticated manufacturing plant in the world. Much of their money is spent on purchasing the worlds best machine tools. If you are willing to pay and work with the better contract manufacturers in China you get world class quality. One of my friends travels there regularly and told me about some of their "lights out" factories where the only human interactions with the manufacturing are in loading machine tool pallets with blanks, quality measurement and statistical process control, and unloading the pallets and packaging the product for shipment. I'm talking about a plant shipping a million dollars a week that employs less than 2 dozen people.

[Chris Fournier]

While I would agree that the Chinese are getting better and in some manufacturing arenas have nothing to apologize for at all I would say that in our field of woodworking tools they are still largely producers of stolen designs made cheaply with poor materials.

Where the Chinese are making top flight consumer goods, they are really just a hired low cost workforce with Western production equipment, design, quality constraints and market.

The tooling that we are talking about in this thread is likely not to get better any time soon because it is built to a low price point. Honestly, what passes for threaded fasteners in China is appaulling. Metal and chalk seem to be about the same thing. Sure lots of the components have machined surfaces but are they square, parallel, flat - often times not.

The Chinese are succeeding right now largely because they have chosen to ignore the rules of the game - stolen designs etc. and because of the cumulative greed of the West and our penchant to have it all now regardless of whether its good or not.

On the flip side I could not really do a lot of the metal machining that I do if I did not buy some Chinese tooling and its pretty clear that SMC would have about 25% of its current membership if offshore machinery were taken from members shops. The Global village is a complicated place!

[Jim Koepke]

Really? It's the same exact tool. You said so yourself. But it has a different value? That doesn't sound right when I saynit out loud but maybe it's just me.

The value is in what the different vendors will do for the customer.

I have never been in an HF store.

I have had excellent service from LV.

To me, it would be news if HF went above and beyond their duty to satisfy a customer.

It would also be news if LV didn't go above and beyond their duty to satisfy a customer.

Right there is the different value.

An earlier reply in this thread insisted they would be very upset to find they paid $50 dollars for a set from Snap-On that only cost $10 at HF.

Any one who has worked in a shop and used Snap-On tools knows they are getting more than a tool for the price. The good Snap-On dealers will replace the tool without you asking. Many mechanics have told me the first time this happened that it kind of surprised them. While they were working on something, the Snap-On vendor came in and checked their tools and replaced the broken magnets in their spark plug sockets and any damaged tools.

There are some Snap-On tools that do not qualify. If you have tools that were made for government contracts, they may not be covered. They will have a G- in the part number.

So, if you make a living off of your transfer punches, buying them only once at a higher price may be a savings.

jtk

[Pam Niedermayer]

I know a guy who used to make stuff in the US. He basically lost his business of copyrighted material to forgers. they copied his stuff so close that one of the originals someone sent to them had a dent in it and every single copied reprint showed the dent.

LV's had many tools copied and sold right back into North America. I don't think Rob is very fond of this practice, which is one of the reasons he tries for NA manufacture when possible.

Pam

[David Weaver]

Pam - you can find a few court documents online that seem to confirm that they don't think it's funny to have their designs hacked!

In the case of the person I know, the copyer went right to the retailers selling the guy's stuff (or the retailers went right to the copyer, don't know), and the retailers decided that they were going to dump his stuff and sell the imported goods. For really small businesses, it sounds like when someone does that, you just give up, because you lose a couple of retailers and the business goes under before you could ever even see a court case.

On a ligher note, I did find transfer punches, made in the US at mcmaster carr. $52 or $53, i believe, for an equivalent set. As is often the case with mcmaster, no clue who makes them, just that they are described as us manufacture. Less than I thought it would be, but I'm more inclined to still buy the chinese punches and if I ever do break one, just go to mcmaster and get the us version of the one I break (they were less than $10 for individuals, IIRC).

[Pam Niedermayer]

While I would agree that the Chinese are getting better and in some manufacturing arenas have nothing to apologize for at all I would say that in our field of woodworking tools they are still largely producers of stolen designs made cheaply with poor materials....

The problem with generalizations is they're so easy to dispute with an anecdote or two. Here are some excellent chisels of Chinese design and manufacture, about $55:

[David Weaver]

I would vouch for muji planes, too, which I do often.

I would still go with the generalizations, though, that a lot of the industry in china has not come remotely close to being driven by innovation.

One of the local companies here is going to supply plans or schematics or something involving reactor design with a sale agreement in hopes that it will create a mutually beneficial relationship in china - or at least that's my interpretation from the article in the paper. I kind of wonder if they have not ever seen anything else energy or defense related (ask the russians, who have found out that you can sell for a little bit, but once copying is figured out, your sales will disappear), and if they really believe china will come to them at all once they've successfully made a reactor on their own (especially given that they don't even have to figure out anything, they'll have the details).

Their day will be up soon, though. I've seen a lot of articles that describe labor issues, currency strength, etc, the same thing any other organizing economy starts to find out once they gain some steam.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Really? It's the same exact tool. You said so yourself. But it has a different value? That doesn't sound right when I saynit out loud but maybe it's just me.

One purchase helps keep HF in business, the other helps keep LV in business.
Those two outcomes have different values for me.

[Chris Fournier]

The problem with generalizations is they're so easy to dispute with an anecdote or two. Here are some excellent chisels of Chinese design and manufacture, about $55:

Pam, you'll see in my post that I said "largely", not "everything" so I would say that my generalization was very qualified. This being said I am not persuaded to change my opinion because of a chisel! Also at $55 this is not a low price point chisel either, the quality should be pretty fair.

[Bruce Page]

One purchase helps keep HF in business, the other helps keep LV in business.
Those two outcomes have different values for me.
Well said.

[john brenton]

True that the although the Chinese are capable of producing first class products, they usually don't, and are not innovators. Also true that they are getting a little big for their britches and forgetting that their place in the world market is "cheap manufacturer". My sister says that the clothing manufacturers she works with over there are refusing to do certain work and people are starting to look elsewhere for manufacturing.

Also true is that they have an excess of somewhere around 20 million males...that's some serious cannon fodder if it ever comes down to it.


I would vouch for muji planes, too, which I do often.

I would still go with the generalizations, though, that a lot of the industry in china has not come remotely close to being driven by innovation.

Their day will be up soon, though. I've seen a lot of articles that describe labor issues, currency strength, etc, the same thing any other organizing economy starts to find out once they gain some steam.

[Michael Horan]

"They are constantly bringing forward close imitations of the saleable goods in the market a little lower in quality and in price than the articles copied."

"Our trade in the world in relation to foreign competition: 1885 to 1895" By William Shaw Harriss Gastrell Page 84

[Tom Vanzant]

In the mid-1960s, the Japanese Minister of Commerce complained about the "flood of cheap Korean-made products into the Japanese marketplace". History is ever-evolving, no?

[Pam Niedermayer]

...One of the local companies here is going to supply plans or schematics or something involving reactor design with a sale agreement in hopes that it will create a mutually beneficial relationship in china - or at least that's my interpretation from the article in the paper. I kind of wonder if they have not ever seen anything else energy or defense related (ask the russians, who have found out that you can sell for a little bit, but once copying is figured out, your sales will disappear), and if they really believe china will come to them at all once they've successfully made a reactor on their own (especially given that they don't even have to figure out anything, they'll have the details)....

You cannot imagine the disdain I have, and have had for a couple of decades, for the stupid CEO's of corporate America who, to make a few million more themselves, have been quite willing to sell out our technology. Too stupid to be believed, and way too shortsighted. Ugh! I hate thinking about this.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam, you'll see in my post that I said "largely", not "everything" so I would say that my generalization was very qualified. This being said I am not persuaded to change my opinion because of a chisel! Also at $55 this is not a low price point chisel either, the quality should be pretty fair.

I know, but I'm quite enamored with the potential of these chisels, am in the process of making handles even as we speak and impressed with the steel and shape. Not a low price point? For whom? For me it certainly is. Maybe for the Chinese not so much.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

True that the although the Chinese are capable of producing first class products, they usually don't, and are not innovators. Also true that they are getting a little big for their britches and forgetting that their place in the world market is "cheap manufacturer". My sister says that the clothing manufacturers she works with over there are refusing to do certain work and people are starting to look elsewhere for manufacturing....

Maybe you're too young to remember the process Japan went through? And it's hard for Americans, who refuse to do all sorts of jobs, to criticize anyone else for wanting to enjoy some new found affluence, to finally relax a bit.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

In the mid-1960s, the Japanese Minister of Commerce complained about the "flood of cheap Korean-made products into the Japanese marketplace". History is ever-evolving, no?

NOT! :)

Pam

[Jim Koepke]

You cannot imagine the disdain I have, and have had for a couple of decades, for the stupid CEO's of corporate America who, to make a few million more themselves, have been quite willing to sell out our technology. Too stupid to be believed, and way too shortsighted. Ugh! I hate thinking about this.

Didn't someone once say, "capitalist will gladly sell us the rope we will use to hang them."?

I really do not see much ideological difference in what Pam is commenting on and what Stalin or Lenin said.

jtk

[Bruce Haugen]

Maybe you're too young to remember the process Japan went through? And it's hard for Americans, who refuse to do all sorts of jobs, to criticize anyone else for wanting to enjoy some new found affluence, to finally relax a bit.

Not too young here. I recall being in 29 Palms, CA, my permanent duty station back in about 1970 or so, walking down the street with a friend when I spied the first Japanese car I'd ever seen. I think it was a Honda something or other, perhaps the teeniest car I'd ever seen, truly a piece of junk. I remarked on that, and my friend told me that his uncle was one of the chief engineers at General Motors. He had just returned from Japan and learned that they were manufacturing aluminum to tolerances and with alloys the American engineers didn't believe were even possible. The impetus was different, I believe, but the Japanese surely learned the lessons Edward Deming was teaching.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Didn't someone once say, "capitalist will gladly sell us the rope we will use to hang them."?

I really do not see much ideological difference in what Pam is commenting on and what Stalin or Lenin said.

Yeah, although I doubt that either Stalin or Lenin meant it, Stalin because he was a masochist/psychopath and Lenin because he'd had to fight too hard to stay human. I have to return to Marx and Engels, have always found Marxism to be far more Christian than capitalism (maybe haven't mentioned it before, I was an Econ major), but generally believe that capitalism seems to work a bit better than Communism, only because of human nature. Of course, I've been an atheist for 50 years or so; but I still admire Christianity as an ethical path. Now if only more nominal Christians did, too, I wouldn't have to be an atheist, maybe agnostic would be enough. :)

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Not too young here. I recall being in 29 Palms, CA, my permanent duty station back in about 1970 or so, walking down the street with a friend when I spied the first Japanese car I'd ever seen. I think it was a Honda something or other, perhaps the teeniest car I'd ever seen, truly a piece of junk. I remarked on that, and my friend told me that his uncle was one of the chief engineers at General Motors. He had just returned from Japan and learned that they were manufacturing aluminum to tolerances and with alloys the American engineers didn't believe were even possible. The impetus was different, I believe, but the Japanese surely learned the lessons Edward Deming was teaching.

I found the Saturn a very interesting vehicle because of the joint effort by Toyota and GM, was very sorry that effort was killed (also because Jack and I inherited one from his parents, love the undentable skin, very handy in Texas hail storms). Oh, well, maybe if we'd listened to Deming the '80's would have turned out differently.

Pam

[mickey cassiba]

Wow...I hear the swoosh of the "Political Thread" ban hammer coming

[Pam Niedermayer]

Wow...I hear the swoosh of the "Political Thread" ban hammer coming

Well, then, perhaps you can explain exactly how any of the above messages are political. And if you can, then the entire thread is political. I think you might stand a better chance if you were to threaten the Swoosh of the religious thread hammer.

Pam

[Jim Koepke]

Yeah, although I doubt that either Stalin or Lenin meant it, Stalin because he was a masochist/psychopath and Lenin because he'd had to fight too hard to stay human. I have to return to Marx and Engels, have always found Marxism to be far more Christian than capitalism (maybe haven't mentioned it before, I was an Econ major), but generally believe that capitalism seems to work a bit better than Communism, only because of human nature. Of course, I've been an atheist for 50 years or so; but I still admire Christianity as an ethical path. Now if only more nominal Christians did, too, I wouldn't have to be an atheist, maybe agnostic would be enough. :)

Pam

I kind of agree with you on the religion view. If more people acted as their religion teaches, the world would be a better place. Though just like retailing products, things have been twisted to suit personal agendas.

My difference is I do not allow the spoilers or perverters of retail or religion guide me. I can still enjoy my own personal business or religion without having to step all the way to the side of being agnostic or atheist. Just the same, I know atheists who have a better philosophy of life than some of the devout _________ (insert religion of choice) I have met could ever hope to have.

jtk

[Derek Gilmer]

One purchase helps keep HF in business, the other helps keep LV in business.
Those two outcomes have different values for me.
I think I found a forum signature!

[Kent A Bathurst]

.........the stupid CEO's of corporate America who, to make a few million more themselves, have been quite willing to sell out our technology..........way too shortsighted.....

And the Law of Unintended Consequences rides once again: Not only do the CEO's get a few extra million bucks for themselves, but the company's market value goes up, raising the value of that stock [or any index fund that includes it] in people's 401k accounts. And it's those selfsame people that make decisions on how to dispose of their scarce resources, and purchase the lower-cost item.

Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and they are us!!"

[john brenton]

....................


Maybe you're too young to remember the process Japan went through? And it's hard for Americans, who refuse to do all sorts of jobs, to criticize anyone else for wanting to enjoy some new found affluence, to finally relax a bit.

Pam

[george wilson]

An agnostic,dyslexic insomniac is one who sits up in bed all night wondering if there is really a dog.

You really are getting off topic,Pam.

[Dave Anderson NH]

So far we have only nibbled around the edges of politics so I've left things alone, but we are approaching dangerous ground when we mix both religion and the edge of politics in a single thread. Lets try to get back on topicbecause we've strayed pretty far.

[John Coloccia]

an agnostic,dyslexic insomniac is one who sits up in bed all night wondering if there is really a dog.

You really are getting off topic,pam. I tend to remember what japan put us through.

ROFL



:D :D :D

edit: some stupid filter keeps lowering everything to lower case...arrgggghhh

[David Keller NC]

I personally have no issue with Lee Valley retailing some questionable stuff at less than rock-bottom prices so long as it supports their tool design efforts and innovation, which is the valuable part of the company (at least to me).

I tend to agree with Ruskin - "There is hardly a thing in the world that some man can make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people that consider price only are this man's lawful prey."

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The thing I wonder, and this is just out of curiosity, is if tools like this parallel what I see in the electronics component world. There, I can buy a resistor, capacitor, transistor or other some such part, and it is perhaps rated to within 5% tolerance of it's stated value. That can be a negligble or an issue depending on the circuit and the value of the part.

I don't know if things are still like this, but used to be, when you bought something labelled 5% or 10% tolerance, it actually meant it was guaranteed to be at least as far from tolerance as the next lower bucket. You'd think 5% tolerance would mean all the resistors you bought would be somewhere between dead on the money and 5% high or low from their stated value. Except everything that was within 1% had been culled to be sold at a higher price as a part labelled to be within 1%. 10% parts were guaranteed to be at least 5% from the stated value because everything 5% and better had already been culled to be sold at that price.

So I get curious, if LV orders some transfer punches or drill bits from a manufacturer, and states, "We want all these to be exactly the stated size within 1 thou" or whatever, does that mean someplace like HF that just wants as cheap as they can get is never going to have one that's quite right, because they're simply selling all the ones the factory made that didn't mean the tighter specs of someplace like LV?

And I actually have no idea if LV is doing this, (asking for a tighter spec) other than they have mentioned having some items (like the afore-mentioned Narex mortise chisels) being made to their specifications. I know that in the world of bicycles, you'll often see generic parts rebranded by different sellers, often with a significant price difference. Online they all look the same, but you get them in your hands and you realize the difference in quality. Talk to some of the guys running these companies and you find out that they demand specific materials and tolerances. Unfortunetly, they don't often get what they ask for. I know one company just got a boat-load of parts they have to have sent back because unlike the spec. samples, they negelected to chase the threads.

[James Scheffler]

I don't know if things are still like this, but used to be, when you bought something labelled 5% or 10% tolerance, it actually meant it was guaranteed to be at least as far from tolerance as the next lower bucket. You'd think 5% tolerance would mean all the resistors you bought would be somewhere between dead on the money and 5% high or low from their stated value. Except everything that was within 1% had been culled to be sold at a higher price as a part labelled to be within 1%. 10% parts were guaranteed to be at least 5% from the stated value because everything 5% and better had already been culled to be sold at that price.

So I get curious, if LV orders some transfer punches or drill bits from a manufacturer, and states, "We want all these to be exactly the stated size within 1 thou" or whatever, does that mean someplace like HF that just wants as cheap as they can get is never going to have one that's quite right, because they're simply selling all the ones the factory made that didn't mean the tighter specs of someplace like LV?

Doesn't this assume that they test and sort every individual unit? That doesn't seem very likely with something like transfer punches from China. It seems like the labor costs of that would be prohibitive. With Lee Valley, it's probably more that they demand that the manufacturers meet a specification, verify it with their own testing, and cancel the contract if the manufacturer can't meet it.

Jim S.

[John Coloccia]

Doesn't this assume that they test and sort every individual unit? That doesn't seem very likely with something like transfer punches from China. It seems like the labor costs of that would be prohibitive. With Lee Valley, it's probably more that they demand that the manufacturers meet a specification, verify it with their own testing, and cancel the contract if the manufacturer can't meet it.

Jim S.

So a typical way you might do this cost effectively is:

1) calibrate your machinery
2) spot check every 100 or 1000 units and put production units in the "tight tolerance" bin
3) when the cals start to drift, start putting units in "normal tolerance" bin
4) when they drift some more, put them in the "bottom of the barrel" bin
5) start over and recal the equipment

You don't necessarily sort every one, and you also don't send all bad units to one guy and all perfect units to someone else. The one who pays for the tighter tolerances gets the tighter tolerances....everyone else gets a range of really great to not so great.

There are many different schemes for doing this. In semi-conductor (say solid state optical components), you end up with lots that tend to all have similar performance based on exact manufacturing conditions for that particular wafer. It's quite difficult to control everything so you get identical performance every time. You measure a sample from the lot, and sort the lots. It's just dumb luck if you get a normal lot, a bad lot or a hot lot.

[Pam Niedermayer]

The thing I wonder, and this is just out of curiosity, is if tools like this parallel what I see in the electronics component world. There, I can buy a resistor, capacitor, transistor or other some such part, and it is perhaps rated to within 5% tolerance of it's stated value. That can be a negligble or an issue depending on the circuit and the value of the part.

I don't know if things are still like this, but used to be, when you bought something labelled 5% or 10% tolerance, it actually meant it was guaranteed to be at least as far from tolerance as the next lower bucket. You'd think 5% tolerance would mean all the resistors you bought would be somewhere between dead on the money and 5% high or low from their stated value. Except everything that was within 1% had been culled to be sold at a higher price as a part labelled to be within 1%. 10% parts were guaranteed to be at least 5% from the stated value because everything 5% and better had already been culled to be sold at that price.....

I don't know your electronics background; but the above statement leads me to believe that you don't know that computers aren't all that precise. It's all o's and 1's and there's a lot of slack in determining whether a bit is turned on or off; so normally 5% wouldn't make a difference.

Pam, a software developer for 34 years

[Pam Niedermayer]

I kind of agree with you on the religion view. If more people acted as their religion teaches, the world would be a better place. Though just like retailing products, things have been twisted to suit personal agendas.

My difference is I do not allow the spoilers or perverters of retail or religion guide me. I can still enjoy my own personal business or religion without having to step all the way to the side of being agnostic or atheist. Just the same, I know atheists who have a better philosophy of life than some of the devout _________ (insert religion of choice) I have met could ever hope to have.

I am affected by spoilers and perverters, particularly when they take us to war based on some perverted doctrine. At that point, I come out long and hard to help get rid of them, and in the process must develop some aversion to their doctrine. Of course, my lack of a belief in some personal deity probably derived from my lack of the God gene, hastened by those marching to war in the name of their deities. I think I should leave it at that. I agree with George that this aspect of the thread is off topic, which is really hard to do with this topic. :)

Pam

[Jon van der Linden]

From what I understand, what we get is not pure camelia oil. There is a thread on here about it.

Nobody who sells it spoke up, so i'm assuming that after someone else definitively stated that what we're sold for tool care is mostly mineral oil (with camelia oil added for scent), that's the conclusion until someone in the know tells us.

I'm not an expert on camellia oil, but found the statement that it's mostly mineral oil a little suspect. I can't read the label on my oil bottle, which is entirely in Japanese. However I have seen the statement that it is 100% camellia oil here:
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=338_457&products_id=1125
I'm sure some of them are adulterated, but you're painting with an overly broad brush here. Pure camellia oil is widely available.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I don't know your electronics background; but the above statement leads me to believe that you don't know that computers aren't all that precise. It's all o's and 1's and there's a lot of slack in determining whether a bit is turned on or off; so normally 5% wouldn't make a difference.

Pam, a software developer for 34 years

I know how precise and imprecise computers are, Pam. Sorry I wasn't clear; in particular I was dealing with audio and other analog signal stuff, some precision power supply work and some electronics test equipment type things; this was all older stuff, a lot of repairs, and mostly now-a-days it's just a lot of custom audio circuits. (Where imprecise can be a good thing!) obviously with most of what anyone (myself included) deals with, .1 , 1, 5, 10 or 20 percent doesn't matter. When you're dealing with digital signals where on is anything over a voltage threshold, and off is anything below it, you can be sloppy. Although I've seen some things done with low-voltage circuit designs playing dangerously close to the power supply rails! My example is probably a little bit dated; in my experience, for most parts (resistors, for example, and most individual transistors outside of some JFETs, and the majority of capacitors once you get out of the pF value you can't even buy parts outside of a 5% tolerance anymore, and even those 5% parts are all pretty tightly in spec. I was just curious as to whether or not something like this occurs in other areas. Not the best example.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Joshua, In the mechanical world everything depends both on the general quality of the manufacturer, the criticality level of the part or parts, customer specifications, and contract specifications. To further complicate things, the length of the run of parts also has an effect. If you are making a batch of 20, any attempt to do sampling and apply statistical process control techniques is of limited value since a good minimum sample size is 30. If you are setting up for a run in the multiple thousands of parts you run the first few pieces and do a capability study, adjust your process and run another study. You then commence the production run and sample throughout the run. If you start to lose tolerance because of tooling wear you should be able predict the point where you will go outside the allowable tolerance and replace, sharpen, or do whatever is necessary to the tooling at a safe point before you reach your upper or lower control limits (still inside the tolerance). This is a vastly over simplified explanation, but everything depends on the customer requirements and the general honesty and reliability of the supplier.

[Lawrence Richards]

not to chime in too much here, but aren't patents only good for 20 years? I mean, it doesn't seem out of the question that the original patent for these transfer punches was before 1990 or so... and in that case it's not thievery but just good business practice that other countries are using? I'm not trying to comment on the moral grounds of using child labor/unfair monetary advantages etc.--this is a different ball of wax. I'm just saying that if a patent runs out it is not theft or immoral to produce the item--again, I KNOW that there are companies in China and elsewhere that are in violation of international patent laws--I'm not talking about that but am talking about companies producing out of patent items... just like Lie Nielsen "copying" old stanley items... nothing legal or morally wrong with it, but if it was "East Asia Nielsen" producing the items certain folks would go into a tailspin.

I'm just saying...
Lawrence

ps- I have the harbor freight punch set--and I can assure you that it is a VERY good value at $7... if I could get a similar value in a US made item, I would, but short of going to a yard sale I'm not holding my breath.

[george wilson]

What you say is true. But there are,indeed,those who rail against the copying of very old Stanley planes,whose patents expired many decades ago,and Stanley in the first place had its own legal problems with Bailey over his designs in the first place,IIRC.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Joshua, In the mechanical world everything depends both on the general quality of the manufacturer, the criticality level of the part or parts, customer specifications, and contract specifications. To further complicate things, the length of the run of parts also has an effect. If you are making a batch of 20, any attempt to do sampling and apply statistical process control techniques is of limited value since a good minimum sample size is 30. If you are setting up for a run in the multiple thousands of parts you run the first few pieces and do a capability study, adjust your process and run another study. You then commence the production run and sample throughout the run. If you start to lose tolerance because of tooling wear you should be able predict the point where you will go outside the allowable tolerance and replace, sharpen, or do whatever is necessary to the tooling at a safe point before you reach your upper or lower control limits (still inside the tolerance). This is a vastly over simplified explanation, but everything depends on the customer requirements and the general honesty and reliability of the supplier.
I could go on for days!!! Just on that alone. Dave, you are dead on. I'm not going to take away from what you said one bit. The key is what you said about tolerances. I've dealt with Chinese auditors who demand the utmost of work...but themselves fail to provide quality work! I work in aviation repair and overhaul. I work to very high standards, the things I see from some parts of the world make me scared to fly.
For tool making, though...well...you can get some pretty decent MIC tools. I'll never own them, though. But that's purely political.

[george wilson]

I'd never make a blanket statement that HF and LV are the same. The real problem with ANY imported tools,or other things,is that the American public wants things for nearly free. Frankly,I don't see how the Chinese do what they do manage to do. I can't even buy the metal to make some of their products without it costing way more. Like,things made of angle iron. Just try to buy the angle iron for a shop cart that is similar in size to a Chinese one.

[James Carmichael]

And the point of this thread is??

There's lot's of HF stuff I'd never touch, but they do carry some useful, inexpensive items.

I purchased their "HVLP finish sprayer" (a litte blower with a spray canister on the end) years ago, and it works great. Later I noticed "reputable" retailers carrying the same item, at a higher price.

As someone mentioned earlier, those punches are throwaway tools. Lee Valley and other retailers have to carry that stuff, too. HF can undercut them on those items every time. If I'm already ordering from Lee Valley, is it worth my time to go searching the internet to save $5.00?

You may also notice those puches do not carry the Lee Valley or Veritas brand.

[Jeff Nicol]

It seems to me that if there is a product out there for sale at 10 different stores or mail order facilities, and they all look the same either you buy the cheapest or the highest priced or one somewhere inbetween. Those who buy the inexpensive one don't care where it was made, they either need it or just want it. Those in the middle usually buy them as an impulse buy because of the marketing or the placement of the display of the item, or they remember that they needed on of them a while back so they buy for next time. The one who buys the most expensive is more like the one who buys the inexpensive one, they believe because it costs more it must be better quality and do not research it any more than the others. This idea of buying the most expensive is best most times works out fine as with cars (Mercedes VS Kia) Watches (Rolex VS Timex) and many big ticket items. But if you go out and look at houses you may find a home that is $500,000 and one 3 blocks away that is comparable in size and so on, but is $300,000. Everything looks great and the fit and finish is great and they are both newly built homes. In ten years the $500,000 one starts to show signs of poor craftsmanship and things start to fail and repairs start to pile up, while the less expensive home is withstanding the test of time with grace and very few issues. This comes down to who the builder was and how much skill and care was used to build the home, the more espensive one was put up buy a big company with a lot of employees and high overhead and time is money as they say. So this house was built faster with possibly short cuts and less knowledgeable workers etc. but with the best materials. The other was built with care and pride with the cheapest materials and in the end the profit margin was a little less but the builder was confident of the house.

It was a long winded explanation, but just like with tools if you want one to last a lifetime you can buy a cheap one and take really good care of it and you are just a hobbiest and will most likely never wear it out. If you are professional and you will be using the tool to make a living, doing a little more research to make sure you are getting what you want and will be able to put it through the paces without the thought of it failing. Even then you can by a brand new anything and have it fail the next day or buy the $5.00 screwdriver that lasts 20 years.

Now for the finish! We as Americans have been forced over the years to buy what is offered, and most of what is offered any
more is an imported product many coming from the far eastern nations or South American countries. This is what happens when it is cheaper, easier, access to more emplyees, you all know the rest. If there were a better business atmosphere here IN America or even Canada those companies would still be here producing products. Even then the quality may be great or so so but the jobs would be here, and that is more important right now.

So buy what you want where you want to and if it lasts forever or a week, it may not be the price you paid for it but the way it was used or a simple flaw in the manufacturing, but trying to convince yourselve that one companies product is better just because it cost more may come back to bite you in the rearend. I have 3 welders from HF and cutting torch set, 4" grinder, die grinder, porta-bandsaw, and numerous other hand tools etc. I have never had an issue with taking them back and getting a new one or for that matter I have had only one thing fail and that was because I used it for 2 years every day and worked it hard, it paid for itself many, many times over and even with the $20 I paid for an exteneded warranty it was a third the cost of a "Brand Name" one.

Just be happy that you can live in a free country and buy whichever tool you choose, for if we loose that it won't matter at all,

Jeff

[Mark A Johnson]

Transfer Punches are much more common in the metal working, then woodworking. There are so many manufactures for these things, its hard to say. The company's my just use the same source for the bases. Or one copied the others designs, once again hard to say. MRO dealers have a catalog that is common for most dealers. Look at MSC or your local mro, and you'll see one. The catalog is worth getting, you'll find things in them that will make your life easier. Your see a transition in woodworking where metal working tools are becoming the normal. The indexing cutter heads, replacing knife heads in planners and jointer's, is just one example.

[Bill Wyko]

The HF in Tucson carries Dewalt tools. In all fairness, HF has started stocking some better quality stuff.

[Brian Ashton]

One thing comes to mind when I've read through this thread is that there appears to be levels of Chinese quality coming out of the same factory. Stationary tools I used to buy in Canada are a prime example. General International keeps the manufacturer to a certain level of standard but the same machine re-badged and different paint and on the floor in the same machine retailer is $500 less. And when you look close enough you see why... I never really experienced the disparity in quality though until I moved to Australia. In the past, in Canada, I had bought lots of Chinese tools, disposables, electronic goods, machines... and the quality wasn't bad. But I think that has a lot to do with most Canadians (at least before the GFC) held quality as maybe not the highest priority but high enough that the buyers took notice and bought from the Chinese manufacturers accordingly. The stuff I've found in this country is for the most part not worth it even if it were free. I avoid anything that doesn't have a proven name brand behind it. Price for the majority of Australians is by far the single most important factor and my guess is that buyers here negotiate on price alone and the Chinese manufacturers are giving them what they ask for. So maybe that sort of business model is what Harbour Freight is employing and they're getting what may be a good price, but the Chinese are giving them the factory seconds for it...

Another point I actively pursue is loyalty. I know I can get tools cheaper else where if I want to dig that deep... But for me I've been buying from Lee Valley from the early 80s and I (at least i feel like they openly demonstrate it...) know what a part of their vision values are: to bring the best possible quality at a fair price, and it always has been (fair price being the key words). I, especially down here, see a lot of companies that opportunistically gouge the customer and thus they don't diverse my business let alone my loyalty. The gouging, at times, has been so blatant and ridiculous that it boarders on criminal. So with a company like Lee Valley I will, and have often, pay that little bit extra (lets face it 50% difference in price amounts to $7 for those punches - big deal) and add what ever it is to the order simply because they are a company that has earned my loyalty.

[Edward Louie]

I bought my set of set of transfer punches from Lee-Valley and went to the local Harbor Freight store to compare.

Bryan you’re eyes did not deceive you they are the same product. I guess that it is not wise to generalize about vendors, after all a good craftsman does not blame his tools.


An interesting observation -

Harbor Freight's reputation for generally poor-quality items is such that I would never expect to see the exact same thing sold by a more reputable seller such as Lee Valley. However, while looking for a set of transfer punches I noticed the following:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=54892&cat=1,43456,54892
http://www.harborfreight.com/28-piece-transfer-punch-set-3577.html

If those aren't the exact same items, then I must be going crazy. I guess now I've seen yet one more thing I never expected I'd see. :eek:

[David Hostetler]

An interesting observation -

Harbor Freight's reputation for generally poor-quality items is such that I would never expect to see the exact same thing sold by a more reputable seller such as Lee Valley. However, while looking for a set of transfer punches I noticed the following:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=54892&cat=1,43456,54892
http://www.harborfreight.com/28-piece-transfer-punch-set-3577.html

If those aren't the exact same items, then I must be going crazy. I guess now I've seen yet one more thing I never expected I'd see. :eek:

Well, for one thing, the set sold by Harbor Freight has the "Pittsburgh" name attached to it, where the Lee Valley one doesn't. Aside from that, they look identical...

Something I have been saying for a long time, if possible, get your hands physically on the item in question, and physically inspect it. HF sells a lot of junk sure, but then again, a LOT of their stuff is the same stuff other vendors are selling for MUCH higher prices, maybe the plastics are different colors, or they lack a feature the more expensive models have or something, but generally speaking, most of this stuff nowadays comes from the same Chinese and Taiwanese factories just churning this stuff out...

I am actually fearful for the U.S. if we ever go to war with China, we depend on them so much for manufacturing now, that I don't think we could keep up with building necessary war materiale... And that is a HUGE part of what won us WW2, and won the U.S. Civil War for the Union...

[David Weaver]

Before (i hope this wasn't said) everyone starts ripping on LV for making $5 more on the punches, realize there is information that not everyone knows. If you look at alibaba where you can contact the places that sell stuff like those punches, you'll notice that there are different quantity ranges that you can get. I don't recall if they give you a price range, but if there weren't differences in prices, they probably wouldn't bother with the different quantities. If HF makes an order of transfer punches, and LV makes an order of transfer punches, it's very likely that HF's order is much larger.

There are not HF's in canada (but Crappy Tire does seem to have similar products) as far as I know, so if LV is going to carry those transfer punches in their stores, are they supposed to exclude them from their catalog if there is any lower price available anywhere?

At least bringing all of this up reminded me to look at HF for a brake caliper tool kit - I almost bought the VW single size tool online, which is well over twice HF's entire universal kit (meaning I won't need one for any of my other cars).