Which Shapton stone?

[Christopher Morgan]

I am trying to put together a sharpening setup for my planes and chisels, and have come up with the following plan:

DMT DuoSharp Coarse / Fine (for flattening stones, backs, and establishing bevels)

Shapton 1000 or 2000

Shapton 8000

Leather strop with paste

My question is whether to get the 1000 or 2000 Shapton stone. The “fine” side of the Duo Sharp is supposed to be the equivalent of a 600 stone.

And does this sound like a reasonable plan?

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Get the Pro 1000 not the GlassStone. Good stone to start with. I have 2 Sigma Power stones (#120 and a #240) to fix chipped edges and re-establishing bevels. At times I have to use my WC slo-speed grinder to fix a real bad blade/chisel. For flattening my synthetic stones I use a DMT Coarse/X-Coarse and an Atoma #400.

[Russell Sansom]

Often asked. 1000! Final answer (from my corner of the ww world)! It is altogether a different beast from the 2000. I have most of them and find I like at least one grit between the 1000 and the 8000, though this leap works out sometimes. It really depends on the size, hardness, and initial condition of the iron / chisel. 1000 to 6000 works more often, but 6000 isn't always the right final grit either. Again, depending on the steel, the 8000 is a "polisher" and can't quite take the scratches off the surface left by a 1000. If it's just a secondary bevel, a very small polishing area, I find it generally will work.
Finally, the way I do things I get a very satisfactory edge with a 6k or an 8k and have no need for stropping. We all appear to be different in this regard.

[Stuart Tierney]

Honestly?

#1000, #5000 then strop, or if you're into very small microbevels, #8000 instead of the #5000. If you've got more A2 than O1, then go back to the #5000.

Only get the professional, please.


Stu.


(I don't use Shapton, but I do have 12 of the stupid things.)

[Andrew Gibson]

I picked up a set of Shaptons a couple months ago and here is what I did...
Duo Sharp course/x-course, shapton pro 1k, 5k, 15k. I find I am using the x-course side more then the course, and with the shapton 1k stone I don't think the fine dmt would be necessary.

When establishing a bevel I like the x-course dmt. Then I go straight to the 1k and refine it a bit. Then micro bevel on the 15k and done.
When flattening a back I like having the 5k in between the 1k and 15k, and I like the 5k for sharpening things like scraper edges and such.

YMMV.

[Ron Kellison]

I have the Coarse/Fine DuoSharp and it works well. You might consider the Sigma stones in 3000 and 8000 grit. I recently purchased the Sigma 8000 from Lee Valley after using both a King 8000 and a Norton 8000 over the past 10 years. The Sigma is amazing!!! I gave both the King and the Norton to someone who needed them more than I did.

Regards,

Ron

[Stuart Tierney]

I have the Coarse/Fine DuoSharp and it works well. You might consider the Sigma stones in 3000 and 8000 grit. I recently purchased the Sigma 8000 from Lee Valley after using both a King 8000 and a Norton 8000 over the past 10 years. The Sigma is amazing!!! I gave both the King and the Norton to someone who needed them more than I did.

Regards,

Ron

Umm, LV don't sell a Sigma #8000 stone... #10000 Select II perhaps?

Stu.


(Who can't count all his Sigma Power stones. There's too many and half of them are hiding...)

[Tri Hoang]

Shapton Pros 1K, 5K, and leather strop or 1K, 5K, and 12K. My leather strop seems to worsen the blade after it comes out of the 12K so no stropping if the blade touches the 12K.

[Christopher Morgan]

Thanks for the ideas, everyone.

The reason I was considering the 2000 was because the jump from 600 to 1000 seemed a bit close, and the jump from 1000 to 8000 seemed a bit far.

But putting together some of your suggestions, maybe I should switch to the DMT X-Coarse/Coarse and the Shapton 1000 and 5000. I could always add a 8000 or higher Shapton if I felt like I needed it later.

[Andrew Gibson]

I think that would be a decent compromise, if you find the 5k stone a bit low, you can always strop on just about anything for next to nothing compared to a 8k or 15k stone.

I would suggest the 15k later, as I find it cuts faster them my 8k king.

[Russell Sansom]

Looks like we're generally in agreement.

I don't feel that the diamond and the 1000k work the same way. the Shapton works quite a bit more neatly. You can also see the trace of the steel on the stone which is often helpful. I always feel that the diamonds are for hogging the blade down rather than creating a cutting bevel.

[Stuart Tierney]

Looks like we're generally in agreement.



Actually no, but the question is about Shapton so we have to work within the confines of that request and restrict it to 2 stones only.

In the case of only 2 stones, you need to keep it sensible and make do. Easier to make do at the top end by stropping.

In the case of only 2 Shaptons, you need to pay more attention to keeping it sensible, which means keeping the grit jumps tolerable and then finding something else to get a good working edge. Depending on how much steel needs to be worked and what kind of steel it is, you make a decision.

And really, the only choice the standard 1k-5k and deleting the final stone, either 8k or 12k. Shaptons, for all their fabled wonders just can't dig deep enough to make a big jump and get a really nice working edge with 2 stones. They aren't made to be used like that.

I'm sorry if that's news to some, but that's just the way it is...

Stu.

[David Weaver]

That's false. I use a shapton 1k followed by a 15k with a hollow grind - I've been doing it for 4 years now, and for the last year, I haven't used power tools (so the stones have been seeing plenty of use). Use of the 5k is generally restricted to japanese irons.

I do the same thing on HSS irons if I use stones (sometimes I just sharpen them with moving leather), just use a microbevel.

Every three hones or so of a hollow ground tool, I take a swipe across a 46 grit wheel on a dry grinder.

I guarantee I can hone a hollow ground chisel faster than someone can get a stone out of water and put it back in a container and put a lid on it, and it will be just as sharp.

The story might be different if I didn't own a grinder, but I'd hate to choose stones that take longer to use so that I can perform the function of a grinder with them.

I went so far a couple of years ago when I was deciding what i'd do as a permanent sharpening regimen to check everything under a dissection microscope to make sure I was getting all of the scratches removed, and to find out of I could see why and whether any of my natural stones were finer than the 15k shapton (only one of them that cuts at an acceptable rate to use really is, and it's marginal - scratches look a lot different than shapton scratches, though).

I've seen a lot of things about shaptons (they load and you can't stop it, etc) and every single one of them can be remedied by using them correctly. If you're using something that wastes fast, like a japanese iron, freehand, a spray of water and short strokes with the iron down the length of the stone and all of the swarf is loose. That's really the way you should be sharpening them freehand, anyway, as long strokes will just create a bevel that is less flat and get you in trouble down the road.

As far as the cutting depth, a quick look at alex gilmores pictures shows just how drastic and deep a shapton cuts in the kind of stuff most people are actually using.

http://liveweb.waybackmachine.org/http://thejapanblade.com/test521.htm

(funny that all of the grit test pictures are gone from alex's page - i wonder what happened - I had to go to web archives).

All of this is about the pro stones, of course. I wouldn't buy glasstones even with government money. The only problem with the pros is how much they are marked up in the US, when they're less than 2/3rds the cost overseas (well, and here if you're willing to buy them ebay, or takeshi kuroda, etc).

[Stuart Tierney]

I guarantee I can hone a hollow ground chisel faster than someone can get a stone out of water and put it back in a container and put a lid on it, and it will be just as sharp.




You don't want to put money on that...

Trust me, you don't.


Watch your mailbox...

[David Weaver]

Jeez....

Can never just blow up over something and have that be the end of it!

I already have a 10k chosera that I am too lazy to soak and use. It was nice to use the one time that I soaked it. I haven't tried it on HSS yet, though, but if it's just a world of splashing things, I like the shapton better. With a soak, the chosera has a nicer feel. No clue if you can just leave it in water. Subjective sharpness, i can't tell the difference, though the polish looks a little different if the chosera is soaked.

Some day, i will put a video online of sharpening a chisel. Not some 6 minute diatribe and discussion of all things in the world, like a lot of the videos on youtube. Not some oilstone laden thing where someone takes scads of strokes and goes through 4 stones and then still has to strop. It'd be less than 30 seconds.

There are just too many ways to skin the cat for me to be able to make any statement about any kind of stone (except maybe oilstones, i think their time has passed for chisels and plane irons - and even then maybe a caveat if someone is willing to use only carbon steel) and not be able to just go use the stone i'm making a statement about and find out a workaround. About the only ones I can't tolerate are the ones that cut even plain old hard carbon steel slowly. There are plenty of natural stones that cut pretty poorly for their grit size, and some that cut OK for their grit size, but the grit size is too small to be practical to use.

(.......and even then, it's an asset with razors sometimes.....)

I'm gonna have to stop tuning in on this kind of thread. I'm getting nowhere, and still using the same two stones.

As for the OP - 1k and 8k would be my choices.

Buy a medium stone later if you are going to freehand sharpen a lot of japanese irons on the stones. There are some really good and really cheap 4-5k stones out there for the times you'd need one - no need to spend on the shapton, *especially* if you're buying it from a seller in the US who is having to go through whatever they have to go through to become $130-$150 for a 1 micron size stone instead of $80.

[Stuart Tierney]

Watch your mailbox...

It's the only way I'm going to be able to change your tune. ;)


Might even try and make a video this afternoon. Still won't mean you won't have to avoid watching your mailbox, only that you'll know what's coming.


Stu, who's been busy taking pictures of oddly bifurcated strips of keratin...

[Mike Holbrook]

I was about to buy a couple diamond plates to handle the heavy work on chisels & plane irons, among other things. I changed my mind and bought Sigma power ceramic stones 120 and 700 instead as I prefer the surface created by stones to that created by diamond plates. I found some very positive comments by fellow posters on the 120 & 700 too. I have a Shapton 2,000 so I got 6,000 and 10,000 stones to match to them. I want to loose the Shapton 2,000 before long too. Since I may be working with some of the harder steels I got Select II 6,000 & 10,000 stones. The Select II's cut even faster than the Sigma Power stones, which IMHO cut faster than the Shaptons.

I have a whole different reason for not liking the Shapton stones though, my 8,000 (Pro) took a fairly short tumble, in it's case, and broke even though the case only had a small dent. They are too thin & fragile for my tastes, sort of defies the term stones in my mind. Then I understand not everyone has 8 high drive German, German Shepherds running through their house either.

Some are firm in their dislike of any stone that requires soaking in water, although I don't think this will be an issue with most of the stones I have, except my old King's; I do not share this prejudice. I have a heated half kitchen with running water next to my shop area so water and the cold are not issues for me. I don't find soaking stones for a few minuets to be a hardship at all, did it for many years with the King stones and my Tormek wheel.

[David Weaver]

I'm not that firm in dislike for soaking stones, just too lazy to use them most of the time. I would imagine the sigmas do cut faster than shaptons.

Calibrating or scaling the discussion only takes using a worn-surface oilstone, though, and then it goes sort of like this in terms of power on regular steels that are pretty hard (if the sigmas cut like I think they probably do, hypothesizing at this point):

Sigmas - Babe Ruth
Shaptons - eh....maybe Frank Robinson
oil stones - billy ripken (yeah, watched many games as a kid where billy hit a ball toward the outfield with HR trajectory, only to watch the outfielder catch it 75 feet short of the wall).

Get yourself a select II in 1000 or something of that like if you're going to cut something really hard. You really want a good cutting 10-15 micron stone to set things up for those finishers, and it's nice if the grooves are shaped similar to what you're finishing with.

Gotta put those shapton pros on something of a base. I know they don't tell you that, but it makes it easier to keep them on the table - especially in use.

Also, don't want to suggest with my crankypants response that all of the sigmas need soaking - i was just referring to the 1000 sized stones since I only use two. I only know of one finish stone that prescribes soaking and really benefits a lot from it. I hear that the sigmas only need soaking below 2000 grit. Don't want to mislead.

[Mike Holbrook]

I think what we are trying to do is lay out some of the options and issues for another poor soul attempting to wade through the myriad of constantly changing options in the interesting world of sharpening. More and more I find sharpening to be a/the major factor, in tool preparedness for "Neanders" who have to move tools over and through work by hand. All experiences are valuable and appreciated by this wanderer along the path.

[David Weaver]

What's worse is that guys who have a lot more experience than me have totally different opinions sometimes. I go back and forth between liking a good properly hardened high carbon steel - i mean like really hard, like white #1 - for somethings, and a softer white for others - especially where no grinder is available (i like white #2 chisels - soft is relative, they're still probably 62 hardness, even though they often say they're 64). And then from that to thinking something like a 3v chisel would be really nice, or at least really liking HSS to dimension and smooth cocobolo and lots of other things (3V would probably be nicer than m2).

I know lots of guys like only tools made before the bessemer process. That's fine. I think they're often too soft and wear too fast, but I recognize that it's all relative, and work can be done with all of them. And there's still a good argument for the fact that you could make all of your own tools out of O1 and do a good job heat treating them without incurring much cost.

I do find the 3V idea really attractive for chisels, though - something ultra tough that doesn't chip easily (which is usually how chisels fail) that really would only ever need maintenance on some diamonds or one of stus appropriate stones. I guess what would turn me off is if they're $100 a crack, but all reports are that the steel is easy to work in bar unhardened, it's not hard to get, and professional heat treating isn't that expensive - so if you didn't like the cost, you could make your own.

Lots and lots of options in sharpening then, as cheap as a broken plane casting (thanks derek) and about $40 worth of diamonds.

The only ones I've really regretted are some of the natural waterstones I've gotten and I maybe really shouldn't have gotten a set of very large oilstones, I don't really have purpose for them but had to see why some folks rave about them (they do work well with old tools, just not as fast as shaptons, nor as fine, so ....what's the point ultimately in using them? I don't know, they're good for carving tools).

The natural waterstones were a way to really bury a lot of money fast, and while a nice suita is about as good as it gets, it's not like your chances of getting a really nice one are great if you don't unload big bucks. And natural stones tend to be lacking as soon as you get to something like a blue steel, or especially a cutting steel (can't imagine what problems super blue would cause for someone who didn't want to really spend a lot of time on a natural stone). I really like one of the natural stones I got, I sold another one that I liked pretty well, but it was kind of the duplicate of my suita stone in fineness. The rest, I think I couldn't sell in good conscience, at least not without taking a 75% loss.

So for all of this dickering about which brand of ceramic abrasive stone to get, I could only say that I would avoid the glasstones. The rest, it's wide open - I can make them all work, but they have compromises (I can make the glasstones work fine, too, but I think they are overpriced for a sliver of abrasive). None of them are the lazy man's dream - a stone that cuts as fast as fresh embedded diamonds, as fine as a great natural stone with a good mud, never needs flattening, never needs to be soaked and never loads at all.

[David Weaver]

Have to revise my statement from earlier - the chosera 10k once it's wet seems to create a much brighter polish than the shapton - really really bright. I think part of that is that the shapton is really hard and swarf that stays on the surface will scratch the iron.

I *think* it's sharper, but I don't have any long hairs to test. The chosera cuts really fast and really smooth once it's wet. Totally different stone when it's wet. Really an indulgence at its price, though.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I think what we are trying to do is lay out some of the options and issues for another poor soul attempting to wade through the myriad of constantly changing options in the interesting world of sharpening. More and more I find sharpening to be a/the major factor, in tool preparedness for "Neanders" who have to move tools over and through work by hand. All experiences are valuable and appreciated by this wanderer along the path.

It's a pretty major factor with power tools, too; but the power tool users seldom notice. :)

Pam

[Mike Holbrook]

David!, don't be bringing up even more expensive, esoteric options, sheees!

Right Pam!
The difference for the "power toolies" is they don't have to do the physical work themselves, which I'm pretty sure makes them less sensitive. I think that doing things by hand helps nurture a greater appreciation for finer, more detailed, aesthetically pleasing results too.

[Derek Gilmer]

On a some what related note, I found a list of the Coarse/Color to grit conversions from DMT's site: http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/colorcode.htm

[Jim Neeley]

"We don't need sharp. We just need more power!" (c) Tim Allen, Men are Pigs

[Andrew Gibson]

"We don't need sharp. We just need more power!" (c) Tim Allen, Men are Pigs

*Tries to type a caveman grunt*

[David Keller NC]

To the OP: David is correct. The fastest way to sharpen a flat, straight blade such as a wood chisel or a plane blade is with a grinder (dry or otherwise - take your pick) to establish a hollow grind and then a fine polishing stone to hone it on. A leather strop can be used to maintain the edge for 4 or 5 "dullings" before it must be re-honed, and a high-quality A2 or O-1 blade can typically accept 4 or 5 honings before the length of time needed to hone it becomes obnoxious and it needs hollow-grinding again.

In my case, I go straight from a grinder to an 8000 grit Norton stone, and the resulting blade is sharp.

There's only one caveat - this procedure is not suitable for carving tools, because a hollow bevel on such a tool isn't appropriate - the hollow behind the cutting edge will cause it to dig into the wood rather than cleanly exit. It is for this one reason that I still have my Norton 1000 and 4000 grit stones. Otherwise, they see very little use unless I'm flattening the back of a brand-new or abused blade.