Kids and woodworking

[Brian Penning]

Thought this was interesting...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/garden/31kids.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=woodworking&st=cse

Don't know about all of your areas but up here(Montreal) I don't think woodworking is taught in schools anymore and hasn't been for years.

[Steve Griffin]

Many new high schools do not have woodshops anymore. I assume it is because they are expensive, use up floor space, cost insurance money and don't help with standardized tests.

I'm sure most here would agree it's a short sighted policy.

I take my 2.5 year old out to the shop almost every night. I make sure I don't have any jig saws/routers plugged in, and their are no precarious stacks of wood to tip over. I set up a little bench with tape measures, hammers, clip boards/pens, calculator and small drills and wood scraps. I'm able keep one eye on him while doing small tasks such as cleaning saw blades or doing glueups. My boy is going to be able to use his hands....

-Steve

[Anthony Whitesell]

I'm not forcing my little girl (3 1/2yo) to go in the shop with me. But she wants to be with her old man so she comes down. Then she see's what I'm doing and wants to do the same. I'm not going to argue. She has a few of her own tools (hammer, saw, tape measure, pencils) and standing on a stool is able to work at a section of my bench. Check back in a few years and I'll let you know if she's still interested.

I forgot to mention that she not especially fond of loud noises and gives no resistance to wearing hearing protection.

[Mike Heidrick]

Megan goes out all the time at 4years old with me - almost daily. Lily is starting too now at 16 months as well. I have a sandbox table and their own Step2 work bench with a vise (it was free on the side of the road on day) in the shop to help encourage them to do so. They have their own tool box, plastic B&D tools, megan has a real handdrill and hand saw, their own wood and foam paint brushes and their own pencils. We have a blast together out there. Some days it is a sandblast too but whatever it takes. I have made many "machines" (Megan's CNC machines), lot of volcanos, many magical crystal rivers, spooky camp fires complete with ghost stories with princesses and dragons and witches and kids and toys, painted a few hundred bdft of the same pieces of wood, measured and squared the same piece of wood a thousand times (should see megan measuring and using an adjustable square), and some of the most imaginative signs ever. Probably some of the best times I have ever spent in the shop.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I loved this article! I thought the stealth plug for SawStop was cool, but a little weird since there was not really a suggestion that anyone is introducing stationary power tools to kids. By the way its not just working with wood that kids are missing out on in their education...most of my college age nephews can't sew a button on, make more that a peanut butter sandwich or successfully plant something in the yard.

[johnny means]

I don't think the disappearance of the trades from our schools is due to cost and space. I believe it is due, mostly, to the general degradation of working with your hands in our society. I don't know any parents who send their kids to school with the hopes that they'll be a carpenter or welder. In fact, these jobs are viewed as fall backs for kids that didn't succeed in school. Just watch daytime television and you'll see ads for trade schools targeted at all the people who aren't in their office for the day. You won't see these schools marketed at school age children, because doing so would imply that your child is a "born loser" and could never make it in college. No guidance counselor would ever dare suggest that little Johnny might make a fine machinist or woodworker.

[Paul Steiner]

Johnny hit the nail on the head with this one. As a woodwork teacher and trades teacher these programs go away because of the blue collar bias in our society. In 2003 my high school did away with an automotive program in favor of a theater arts program, because our country has a huge need for dinner theater actors right now. Also every student is being pushed into college right now, even if you are a C or D student college is for you. Its great how our education system is based in research and research shows that college is definitely not for everyone. And that trades programs make drop out rates fall. In fact many students go to college that have no business being there and wind up is serious debt from student loans. The facts are that students have no idea that plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, and ASE mechanics make a lot of money and are in huge demand due to the retiring generation. I tell my students if they want to make 100k by the time they are 30 don't go to law school get into plumbing and start their own business. Most HS counselours could not tell you what a HVAC tech is, how much plumbers make, or how to further your education after HS to become a plumber, welder, HVAC tech, ASE tech. The biggest problem is no one thinks about the fact that these are service jobs and they will always be needed thus these people will always have jobs. Next is that a student that becomes a plumber or hvac tech will become a taxpayer and self suffiecent 2 to 5 years before college students.
Woodwork is associated with the trades, but really the knowledge and skill learned through woodwork benefits everyone. What Matt said is very true also. I am 30 and most of my peers are experts on computers, gadgets, cell phones, video games, clothes, and the nfl. They have no clue how to do things that 20 years ago was considered standard male knowledge. Things like changing a car battery or tire, changing oil, patching drywall, and fixing anything. This is because we stopped teaching manual skills and put kids in front of computers. Really we stopped teaching kids that they could read a book and learn to do something.
I could write for hours about this issue, but hopefully manual skill will come back. Personally I think when plumbers start billing $200 to $300 an hour people will change their tune on the trades.

[Greg Book]

I would LOVE to get my little girl into the shop! I didn't even know people did this with 3-4 year olds! How do people handle the pre-schooler inquisitiveness? ie, touching everything. What projects do people work on with their pre-schoolers?

Second, how do people deal with the dust for kids? I wear a mask when I'm in the shop because I have allergies and get asthma from even the briefest exposure (my wife says maybe I should give up woodworking. HA). I can only assume my daughter would get asthma too since she's genetically related to me. Unfortunately she can't keep her socks on during the day so I doubt she'd keep a dust mask on. I've gotten a new 1micron dust collector which should help a lot, but I guess I need to setup air filter and clean the existing dust that's settled on things before I had the collector. I'd probably only use hand tools when she was in the shop as well.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I'd say check out the website of the schools/programs mentioned in the story...there's always more to it than a journalist can work into one 3500 word article. One of the things the story does quote an instructor as saying is rather than age, it is maturity of the individual child. My eight year old daughter has been happy to hang in the shop with me. She is mostly curious about the wood itself walnut and cherry figure, smooth planed vs. rough surfaces, and puzzle piece nature of furniture parts are intriguing. Don't we all agree!? But most of her actual activity is drawing and painting pictures to decorate the shop for me...she definitely taps into the idea that it is a creative space...and only when I'm in hand tool mode. As soon as I let her know I am planning to use something under power, she's bagged up her Crayola "tools" and is up the stairs before I can say see ya.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I would LOVE to get my little girl into the shop! I didn't even know people did this with 3-4 year olds! How do people handle the pre-schooler inquisitiveness? ie, touching everything. What projects do people work on with their pre-schoolers?

I work hard to find jobs with which my children can help. My 3 year old is not really useful in the shop, my 5 year old does better.

We built some little things that are mostly "glue this to that" and "paint it".

I built a super simple coat hanger. When can the child step in?



Flatten board - no
Route edges - no
Sand - maybe, but I did it.
drill holes for shaker pegs using drill press - heavy supervision
Glue in hole and insert pegs - yes
Slop on stain - yes, with supervision
Poly, varnish, what ever - yes

I started with two..... Other people say "hey, I would love one of those". The last two I made were sent to Grandma and Grandpa (built at their request with wood of their choice). There are some imperfections that I probably would have avoided working alone, but now they have a hanger made by their granddaughter, and my daughter can say "I helped build that".

A friend asked me to build a small wine rack and gave me a picture. Not sure how to build the silly thing (square box with places to stick single wine bottles, but the internal boxes are at 45 degree angles). I also was not clear on the color, so....

I prepped a piece of pine, poplar, cherry, oak, and maple. I prepped a spot for 6 different stains (and also a spot for tung oil and one for BLO) that I marked off with painters tape. My daughter opened each can of stain (with help) and then painted the color in the correct square (after each can was open I said "paint in that square"). I then took the board, handed her another, and did any clean-up to remove the excess, etc. She had a blast. In a few days, I will drop a top coat on half of the stain so that it can be seen with (and without) a top coat.

The five year old can also perform some very very limited sawing with lots of help, I expect this to improve (of course).

I really work at it and try to hold off on things with which they can help until they are present. Did I mention that I have hearing protection and eye safety gear that fit?

[johnny means]

I would LOVE to get my little girl into the shop! I didn't even know people did this with 3-4 year olds! How do people handle the pre-schooler inquisitiveness? ie, touching everything. What projects do people work on with their pre-schoolers?



My kids got to use brad nailers and glue along with a pile of scraps at about 3. Cordless drills at about 4. Bandsaw with close supervision when they could safely reach the table height (7ish for my boy, girls not they're yet). Some would say this is nuts, but what was the worst that could happen? No need for projects, they'll invent they're own. I'm pretty firm with my children, and they know not to cross me, so setting down ground rules dealt with the loose hands thing pretty easily YMMV. Explain things and I think you'll find that they're smarter and more capable than you think.

[Douglas Clark]

This is a subject that is always on my mind as a parent and as a former HS drop out with a graduate education (not in the trades). Both of my parents and all four grandparents were college grads and college was just expected. I really struggled to focus in school even in college. In retrospect, I know why. It's because I didn't get to do any of the tactile learning that shop and industrial arts provides. It's not that my parents prevented me from doing those things it just didn't seem to cross their mind that their intellectually gifted child may have benefited more from developing some tactile skills rather than trying to shove me past my academic laziness.

Ironically, my father who is an attorney loved doing hands on things and was self taught in a variety of things including woodworking, welding and painting. And yet, I think my parents saw those things more as hobby type exploits. I think they realize their error now but in the meantime im struggling hard to move my career closer to the trades even though my formal training is fairly distanced. I've done a reasonable job at getting closer to working with the trades but I'd have gotten there so much quicker if given proper opportunities and exposure younger. As it is, my obvious abilities and gifts are more verbal and im not as good with my hands as many of the even more average artisans. But I enjoy it enough to stay motivated and make the rest of my abilities accomplish something and have meaning.

Bottom line for my kids, I don't care if they go to college or trade school. I do care that they learn to learn on their own and get an education (although that doesn't necessarily mean formal schooling, in my opinion). I also care tremendously that they are as well-rounded as they can possibly be (which likely will mean some formal schooling). I believe that without both intellectual and tactile development it is impossible to develop a nation of thoughtful creators, producers, or simply good citizens!

[Jim Summers]

Mine all started out in the shop at around the 3.5 year range. Mostly nailing, driving screws and glueing stuff. One of the coolest things was how each was different. One always wanted to have a plan or something to build. The other was content with a pile of pieces and would nail / glue / screw them together building something he was thinking of at the time.

[Rod Sheridan]

My two girls were always told that one of the folowing was expected from them;

- trade certificate
- community college diploma
- university degree

and that all 3 were equally viable options for being self sufficient in life.

Regards, Rod.

[Douglas Clark]

+1 on Rod's post. He got straight to the point I make with my kids. Although, I think with my kids I'd probably push for it being either:

trade certificate & community college diploma
-- or --
university degree

Sadly, due to texting and casual language habits, I think most kids coming out of high school for the last 15 years or so clearly struggle to write a clear, cohesive sentence. So, I would encourage most people to get at least one year of college english under their belt, in addition to their trade certificate. Of course, maybe it's just a generational thing because I was constantly chided by my own grandmother (a UCLA grad) for poor grammar and I'm reasonably well spoken for my generation.

[Charles Goodnight]

As a kid it was always obvious I was going to be a scientist, and a biologist. When I was in middle school I talked to my parents about what classes to take. In particular, I kinda wanted to take shop, but I knew I should take advanced biology. My parents comment: You know what you are going to do for the rest of your life. Take the other thing. Take shop. I did, I loved it, and guess what, when I went to graduate school, some 10 years later I made all of the equipment I used in my research. That shop class ended up being one of the most valuable classes I took in middle school. I also became life long friends with the shop teacher, so that was a secondary benefit. I was really upset when they got rid of their industrial arts program.

[Tom Hintz]

I have several school districts that use my site for woodworking courses they offer. Some are for real in-school woodworking classes, some are based in community college facilities. It does sound like woodworking is taking big financial hits though with all of the cutbacks. I guess I can see their reasoning when they have to decide between math and woodworking on the curriculum. the money has to come from somewhere but nobody wants to pay those kind of taxes.
We have donated a bunch of equipment after reviewing it to a couple schools but that is not much help or going to keep them afloat very long I am afraid.

[johnny means]

It does sound like woodworking is taking big financial hits though with all of the cutbacks. I guess I can see their reasoning when they have to decide between math and woodworking on the curriculum.

I'm sure the few shop programs left out there are getting hit hard by budget cuts. But I think the demise of the trades in schools actually came during the boom years. I remember seeing my old school cut out shop curriculum while expanding the school and installing a fancy new rubber track so the athletes wouldn't get sore knees. These were the years in which we became a nation of money movers as opposed to producers of things.

[Ryan Hellmer]

I was in the shop at a young age, suffered my first power-tool accident at age 7 (bandsaw nicked my thumb) and have been doing it ever since. I hate that the trades are taking such a beating in todays society. I was one that grew up believing college and grad school were the way to go. Oh I still do all my yard work, house remodeling, oil changes blah blah. But I've got three buddies from high school, one welder, one diesel mechanic and one lineman who after a couple years of training jumped into the work force. I spent the next 8 years in school amassing some student debt and making (relatively) no income. By my math, it will take 7 years to "break even" and a lot longer than that to catch up to my diesel mechanic buddy. I think kids need to be introduced to the possibility, make an informed choice about what they like to do and then be the best they can be at it. If that's a lawyer, fine; plumber, fine; welder, fine; doctor, fine; just get out there and be a productive memeber of society.

Ryan