Grain raising on oak plywood?

[keith ouellette]

I have all the case parts cut for an Oak tv stand I am building. I was getting ready to sand them when i remembered that I was going to use a trans tint dye to color the project. Seeing its my first time using something like this I was going to dilute with water.

Does it matter how long before stain that you raise the grain?
should I raise the grain first before I assemble the case even though I won't be dying the wood for about a week?

Do you have to raise grain on veneer plywood?

how would you raise grain on plywood or any wood for that matter? Preferred method.

[Jamie Buxton]

I use denatured alcohol with transtint instead of water. It raises the grain less.

[keith ouellette]

I use denatured alcohol with transtint instead of water. It raises the grain less.

Doesn't that dry super quick? I am spraying the dye but I have never done this before so I want to play it safe.

[Erik Christensen]

I use water soluble dye all the time on my cabinet cases. I spray dye and water poly after assembly. After 1st coat of poly I hand sand with 320 grit to remove any raised grain - works for me.

[Jack Clark]

Hey Keith,

Thanks to Howie over in the Finishing Forum, I would like to direct you to this article by Steve Mickley:

http://www.hardwoodlumberandmore.com/Articles/ArticleViewPage/tabid/75/ArticleId/28/Pre-Raising-The-Grain.aspx

:)

[keith ouellette]

I use water soluble dye all the time on my cabinet cases. I spray dye and water poly after assembly. After 1st coat of poly I hand sand with 320 grit to remove any raised grain - works for me.


Hey Keith,

Thanks to Howie over in the Finishing Forum, I would like to direct you to this article by Steve Mickley:

http://www.hardwoodlumberandmore.com/Articles/ArticleViewPage/tabid/75/ArticleId/28/Pre-Raising-The-Grain.aspx

:)

thanks guys. That sure makes things a lot easier. Good article. Makes a lot of sense.

[Peter Quinn]

Erik and Jack's approach is interesting and I imagine would make sense in many cases, but I'm not inclined to follow that method in all cases. The problem not addressed in that article is the varying severity of grain raising and the problem of sand through. Some wood raises a bit, nothing terrible, easily handled by applying a coat of sanding sealer and knocking it down. Some boards fuzz up like left overs left too long and require considerable sanding, so if you sand too much after staining and get a sand through, your in a world of hurt. It can be really tough to blend in a sand through area with the rest of the field. DAMHIK. Pre-raising does not eliminate grain raising IME, but it knocks off 80% of the most offensive stuff and sure makes the sanding process easier going forward. No fear of sand through when no dye has been applied! Rather than thinking of it as time wasted, I see it often as cheap insurance and time well spend. I have NEVER seen a board fuzz up as badly the second time a water based product is applied as the first unless a complete and deep sanding was done. Why not knock off the lions share without risk and with great ease? Even if its just a quick and dirty wipe with a 220G sponge it helps. Then you can get the rest after your first coat of sealer or your first clear coat.

As far as grain raising on plywood, IME its never as bad as freshly milled solids and often not necessary. The veneers on the plywood have always been steamed, sliced, glued, then sanded. Often the grain has essentially been pre-raised and pre-sanded for you in the case of plywood so its easy to dye, seal and knock down. I like to do a quick sample of what ever I am going to work with before attacking the actual work piece to se how it will behave. I prepare the sample just like I would the actual product in terms of surface prep. Then I like to wet one face just to see how much fuzz I can expect. If its very fuzzy, I raise the grain, sand with 220-320, and proceed with my finish schedule to look for any surprises. If the grain raise with just fresh water is acceptable, I may skip it raising and handle it after sealing.

A few points I learned in a class on dyes from a pro, make sure the barrier coat between dye and top coat is of a different solvent base than the dye. If the dye is water based, seal with shellac or a solvent based sealer. If the dye is alcohol based, do NOT use shellac for sealer, use a water or non alcohol solvent base. etc. Using a water based sealer over a water based dye can cause problems with reactivating the dye and potentially getting some bleeding in an irregular manner. You might get away with a solvent based sealer over a solvent based dye or stain, but be sure the dye is completely and thouroughly dry or you can pull up color and wreak havoc. DAMHIK. You might also get away with spraying a water based sealer over a water based dye as long as no brushing or other physical abrasion technique takes place, but it doesn't always work and can lead to bleeding of the dye layer. Another approach to grain raising is to find the color strength of your dye, make a bit too much, dilute some by up to 70% and use this as a wash coat for grain raising. It pushes the wood in the correct color direction, but if you sand through on that first raising it wont cause any problems with color match in subsequent coats of dye. The big problem is often that parts of a board will fuzz up much more than most of the rest, these parts will get extra sanding, that and the edges are where sand through will occur most likely. A dye wash coat for grain raising can help reduce any such problems.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> so if you sand too much after staining and get a sand through, your in a world of hurt.

The point of that article was that you don't sand the stain. Instead you stain and apply your first coat of finish. Then you sand. That way you are sanding the finish, not the wood or veneer. That's always been the rule for sanding hardwood veneer plywood. Apply the coat of finish and then lightly sand.

[keith ouellette]

I have no idea why I didn't start this thread in project finishing (sorry about that) but until it gets moved...

Peter:
thats some more great info. I would have never thought to use a a solvent sealer over a water dye. At first it seemed counter intuitive but after I thought about what you said It sounds logical. After I dye the wood I wanted to put a toner over it to help even everything out (and practice using toners). Should I seal first or just use the toner as a sealer?