airless sprayer

[Barry Lyndon]

I'm getting ready to paint a dining table and buffet and was wondering if there is any advantage to using an oil based enamel over a latex based enamel when it comes to the finished look. I'll be using an airless sprayer and I'm going for as smooth and glossy white as I can get (like a car finish). I've always used latex paint in the past (rolled or brushed, never sprayed) but have read that oil may be better for smooth high gloss surfaces. The guy at Sherwin Williams said that oil would be better but that is when I was planning on brushing on and he said that it would be easier to get a smooth surface brushing with oil. Is that still the case with spraying?

Anyone here use both regularly or have experience with both in high gloss? Any ideas?

[Scott Holmes]

Oil based enamel will be a bit more durable than water-based enamel. Flow-out will be a lttle better with oil based....

BUT

Spraying oil based will be more of a mess. The overspray will remain wet and dry to a crusty mess on everything within 5 feet of the spraying area. Protect your eyes and your lungs.

A roller and a quality brush could lay it down fast and tipping off the finish (with a quality brush) as soon as it's rolled on would give a great finish too.

If this is your first time spraying remember to practice, practice, practice; airless sprayers can lay down a lot of finish very quickly...

[keith ouellette]

OIL IS KING. Latex Sucks. Before you start. get a quart of white latex and a quart of white oil . Pretty much any brand. Brush some on a piece of wood right next to one another and look at the two when dry. You'll see what i mean right away. For some reason, unless you talk to an old painter, very few people know how great oil is.

It will flow out of a gun much much better than latex. It will actually harden in place of staying slightly gummy for ever like latex with any type of gloss does.

HERE IS THE PROBLEM WITH OIL: And its an important one. The white yellows. The whiter the paint the faster the yellowing. I just recently talked to a vender about this very topic and he told me that the newer oils yellow faster than the older formulas did. It has to do with the paint industry making the paints "eco friendly" but I can't remember what was done. And like scott said it will stay wet much longer so the cloud of paint vapor will still be wet when it lands in place of being a dust like latex. It is the yellowing factor that turned me away from using oil on the ultra white built in book case I just did (posted in projects forum today).

I used flat ultra white floor paint which isn't nearly as gummy as latex gloss or semi gloss and should be very durable because its for floors.

One more thing. About gloss. In white gloss you will see a fleas hair if its under the finish. Gloss white shows every ity bitty defect.

I know latex and I know oil pretty well.

I would look into lacquer which I know little about other than I think they actually put that on cars.

I would also spray a couple of coats flat white paint on the material your using and when it dries for 2 days put on some semi gloss water based poly and see how you like the look of that. It may make finishing a little easier and light scratches from use won't be an issue. I did that to a vanity and was very happy with the results. It has to be water based poly because the regular poly also yellows. Water based won't in doors.

[Scott Holmes]

The reason "water-based" (actually water-borne) poly doesn't yellow is becuase it's acrylic with a very small % of poly added.

Another option to paint the table white would be to use a quality solvent based (non water thinned) acrylic paintnot sure if you can still get 'em I don't do a lot of painting other than walls and houses...

Think aerosol spray cans of crystal clear acrylic at the big box stores...

[Barry Lyndon]

Lots of great information, thanks guys. I've done some more reading and along with your inputs I guess oil is really not an option for me. It will be high gloss white and the yellowing is not acceptable. So the good news is it will be an easier cleanup, unfortunately it won't be as durable. I guess I can just put a couple coats of poly on top and the durability won't really be an issue right? Where would I get lacquer paint?

[keith ouellette]

I think most latex paint is acrylic. There is no actual latex in latex paint (there used to be back when latex was new).

I want to recant a little on my harsh criticism of latex. It does actually have a number of great properties. My critique was mostly about flow and hardness and finished look.

One great thing about latex, especially gloss, is washability. Also stain resistance. A gloss oil base is still stain resistant and washable. but Dirt will embed itself in latex to a much higher degree than oil because latex stays a little gummy. You can't really sand latex well. sanding oil is really great so after each coat you and sand out an imperfection very easy but you have to wait that long dry time. Latex does dry very fast which is a plus for latex but you CAN NOT sand it smooth. It just won't work.

Scott is right about the acrylic in water poly. the more acrylic in a latex paint the better it will be for you project in my opinion (If you go latex) Its a shame white and oil don't mix well.

I hope some one chimes in on lacquer. Its what I would have looked into except I was pretty sure I couldn't get the ultra white I needed.

[keith ouellette]

Find an auto motive supply place and ask them about lacquer. They will have all the correct info and materials. I can't wait to see how it comes out because I want to start using it myself.

[Joe Chritz]

You can get a lot of the clear coats (I use target coatings) tinted in white. That is a good option. If you want to use paint I use the Shewin Williams ProClassic Alykld paint for cabinets and it is very good stuff.

[Phil Phelps]

You don't want to start with automotive lacquer. The paint is really expensive, you have to buy the appropriate reducer and catalyst. Go to a real paint store and look at the commercial lacquers they sell. You can spray white lacquer and top coat it with clear lacquer, if need be. You can wet/dry sand it and polish it to a super high gloss finish. But, talk to a pro at a paint store, not a home center.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> I think most latex paint is acrylic. There is no actual latex in latex paint (there used to be back when latex was new).

Absolutely correct. Unless you buy a real cheap "latex" paint, you will be getting an acrylic waterborne paint. Acrylic is used for interior and exterior trim paints and waterborne enamels. Some wall paints and exterior paints are still made with latex as latex allows air and moisture to freely pass through and out of the home. On exteriors, the pass though of air prevents peeling and checking of the paint. Acrylic paints do not change color with time.

A final point. You don't want to overcoat an acrylic paint with a clear oil based poly varnish. The oil based finish will impart an immediate amber tone to the white and the amber color will become more yellow rather quickly. Plus, there is no benefit to overcoating a waterborne acrylic with clear acrylic. Colored acrylic is just clear acrylic with lots of white pigment added. Clear acrylic is no more durable than colored acrylic.

I just noticed that no one has addressed the issue of an airless sprayer. Airless sprayers are not typically used when you want the highest quality finish. They do not produce as smooth and glossy finish as HVLP turbine or compressor gun finishes. Airless is fine for interior and exterior wall house painting. They eject lots of heave material very quickly. But, they do not do it smoothly.

[Barry Lyndon]

Well, I went to a Sherwin Williams store but was not happy with the level of knowledge I was getting there so I went down the road to a Benjamin Moore store and talked with the guys in there for about 20 minutes discussing options. They sold pre-cat Lacquer but did not think it was best suited for my project. We ended up deciding that the Benjamin Moore Advance paint was the right choice. Apparently it is a latex/oil hybrid and cures really hard (they had samples and it seemed really nice). Since it is part oil, it will yellow a little bit but not nearly as bad as a full oil based paint and since my dining table is in a very sunny room I decided to go ahead and go with it since the sun will slow (or mellow) the yellowing. I'm getting started on the painting tomorrow so hopefully everything works out.

Thanks again for everyone's input. I was able to go into the store with a little more knowledge and more informed than I was before your help.

[keith ouellette]

You don't want to start with automotive lacquer. The paint is really expensive, you have to buy the appropriate reducer and catalyst. Go to a real paint store and look at the commercial lacquers they sell. You can spray white lacquer and top coat it with clear lacquer, if need be. You can wet/dry sand it and polish it to a super high gloss finish. But, talk to a pro at a paint store, not a home center.

Phil;
I have never actually looked into it but isn't the type of lacquer you get at an auto paint supply about the best there is but expensive or is it just not good for wood? I was under the impression that the mix used for autos was by far more durable. Kinda like the difference between ready mix epoxy and epoxy you have to mix from part A and part B.

[Phil Phelps]

Keith, I've used several automotive paints on wood with great results. When I first used an automotive lacquer I think it was really a lacquer. But it required a special reducer at the rate of 150%, which I couldn't believe. But, it covered like magic. Today"s automotive paints are completely different. Now it's acrylic enamels/lacquers with their own hardeners and reducers, designed to have a clear coat on top. Some of these paints will crush your budget. I only use these paints on guitars. I can sand and rub them to an amazing gloss.
Howard. I consider myself an "applicator". I know very little the science of paints. The industry changes so often I always check with the pros to see what's new. But I do know how to achieve a baked on finish look with an airless sprayer. I have four sets of louvered doors that I sprayed with Benjamin Moore oil enamel that are sensational. They really look hand rubbed. The only thing I did was sand, (major work), prime and spray with five percent reduced oil paint using a fine finish tip. Best spray job I ever did.