how to go "pro"

[michael a nelson]

i want to get into the furniture and cabinetry business but i don't know how to do a few things.

how to price.

how to get my name in the market.

and how to atract the clientel i want to do business with me.

[Stephen Cherry]

If you build it, they will come.


(just joking, at least half joking anyway.) One thing you may want to do is search, and read past posts. All of these topics have been covered, and there are a few people who have posted regularly through the years as they have grown a business, so you could follow what they were doing through several years. There was a thread recently on pricing. And people have posted on marketing.

[Don Jarvie]

Start with people you know like coworkers or friends who may need something built like a bathroon vanity or something custom fit. If they like it they may want more items and they will spread the word.

It will take time but doing it in your spare time you can generate a few bucks and try to build a business.

As for price, see what someone wants and look around at similar products and see what they cost. You products will be better so they will have to pay for that. The real issue will be what the profit will be compared to your time spent. Unless your very good now you have to figure there will be a learning curve that eats into your shop rate.

I was laid off this winter but did some carpentry work for some coworkers and one of them wanted 5 radiator covers. I looked online to see what they may cost if she were to buy them and I charged her 350.00 a piece. They cost 140.00 for materials so my profit is 210.00. It takes me around 12 hours to make them so my rate is around 17.50 or so. I'm not getting rich but the extra money covers some of the bills. Thats how I look at it.

I know I won't turn this into a business but if I can make some supplemental income its great.

Good luck

[Anthony Whitesell]

I once asked the father of friend who owned his own (not wwing related) business. First what do you like about having your own business? His response was the hours, the satisfaction, the work, the decision making. There's almost nothing I don't like. Second, I ask what don't you like about running your own business? His response was "getting my money! No one wants to give and everyone wants to take it. If it wasn't for all the trouble the money causes, there wouldn't be anything unpleasant about running your own business."

Remember not everyone will realize that this is YOUR living. They may give you credit for your skill, and perhaps some for the material cost, but they will give you very little for your time. So between your first and third items, make sure you put together a plan to make sure you get your money.

Good luck.

[michael a nelson]

at don
i have been doing friends and family items but it is not getting the turn around i expected but i agree with you it will take time (i'm sixteen now so time i have plenty of)
thank you for you reply

at Anthony
i definitely agree with you on the fact that not every one will agree that it is a living or for me new tool money and i have had the people that think that because their getting it from me it will be cheaper then retail prices and i have been trying to make a contract up but i want something that is simply worded and can conform to any business changes i want to make any way thank you for you reply

[Steve Schoene]

I'm going to suggest that "If you build it they will come" is absolutely the worst way of thinking about beginning a business. As a business man, your biggest job is Marketing--you have to think of your self as selling your self and your product and developing the products that people want. You can't build a business that can support yourself by focusing on co-workers, etc unless they are far up from your pay grade or you are thinking about leaving a high power profession. You have to be able to market to RICH PEOPLE. Why, as Willie Sutton is supposed to have said about robbing banks, that is where the money is.

Pricing is a matter of knowing what people will pay. Research the best you can how much people pay for custom items. How your product is worth paying more than they could buy something similar at Ethan Allen for much less money. You need to show customers that yours will look better, fit their exact needs (custom work), and comes from a wonderful craftsman who really cares about his customers, etc. All the "stuff" about formulas based on costs are only the second and least important part of pricing. Those calculations just tell you that the price you can get is high enough to make it worth taking the job, and ultimately enable you to tell whether you are making money. Your costs are just bookkeeping--important but not the driver of the business--the sales and marketing team (YOU) do that. Marketing your self is a full time job. ALWAYS have a business card, at least, where ever you go. To church, to the beach, out for dinner, etc.

[Steve Schoene]

Michael. Yes it is important to convince customers that they get more, and therefore need to pay more than retail. But at your age I would encourage you to also consider the other aspects of your development as a businessman and as a craftsman. Frankly it's not a contract form that is very important--is the selling of your self at a personal level.

Are you considering post high school plans? Hish level college level programs such as Rhode Island School of Design and other open up one set of opportunities. Alternatively, more craft oriented programs like the North Bennet Street School or the Furniture Institute of Massachusets run by Phil Lowe or the program at Thaddeus Stevens College of Technology.

[Larry Edgerton]

My suggestion at your age is to go to work for at least one company, but better yet several over the next five years. You will learn something different every where you go, make notes, and put money away. Don't borrow! Read everthing you can find on the subject. While you are working take some basic business classes at least at your local college, take some design classes, and study the classic designs, learn how to use Phi. Learn about contracts, and use them.

And then pay attention to what Steve said above, words of wisdon there........

[Rich Engelhardt]

How to go pro in three easy steps:

1.) Get a good CPA
2.) Get a good insurance agent
3.) Get the name of a good lawyer that does work in your area (both local and in the avenue of your potential "pro" venture)....


Always remember this:
"Making money is easy. Hanging on to what you make is the tough part."

[michael gates]

Should be easy since your 16, Here is how, I assume you live at home and dont have any financial concerns or overhead.

Start by building things you are good at and can make money at, Learn about the finishing process as it is the most important part of selling! Sell items at a price they will move at until you have a reputation then increase your prices.

Take the best quality pictures of your work that you can and start a website, get business cards and hand them out, advertise in your local classifieds. Go to the Woodweb forum and read every post ever made under the business category (seriously)

Take all your profits and invest back into your company, Better equipment equals better quality. Buy all machinery used! Get the biggest you can afford so that you dont end up buying stuff twice. Dont waste money on things that you dont need unless they speed up your work or improve quality.

It takes a year or so of hard work with low pay to build enough projects to get a decent portfolio. It takes time and you are lucky to be young so it should be a little easier for you then most.

[Kurt Cady]

First, and this is meant as constructive criticism not an attack, I'd start with proper grammar, punctuation, and sentence structure.

Nothing makes me run away from a business faster than getting emails, etc with terrible English.

[michael a nelson]

Steve i was thinking that when i finished high school i would ether see if i can attend the school of the redwoods or the north Bennett street school

[michael a nelson]

[QUOTE=Rich Engelhardt;1673386]

1.) Get a good CPA.

its funny you said that because my mother happens to be an excellent cpa "' one of the best in the state of ohio"

[Joe Angrisani]

First, and this is meant as constructive criticism not an attack, I'd start with proper grammar, punctuation, and sentence structure. Nothing makes me run away from a business faster than getting emails, etc with terrible English.

I've got to agree with Kurt on this one, Michael. Don't take it the wrong way, but you MUST fix your writing skills. If I received something written the way you have done in these posts, I would ignore the solicitation or quote.

[Ryan Hellmer]

I would do some checking with "small business development centers" http://www.development.ohio.gov/entrepreneurship/sbdc.htm

We have them here in KS and they are a great resource for people looking to start out. The advice to go work for someone else for a few years is also excellent. Most of what I've learned in both my trade as well as woodworking, has been attending someone else to learn tips, tricks and organization. Good luck!

Ryan

[michael a nelson]

ive posted some pics of my work in the wwing projects thread just now

[Thomas L. Miller]

Mike,
Another source for help in starting up a business is SCORE (Service Core of Retired Executives). Many of these folks are very experienced in building business plans, budgets, etc. They can help mitigate the dismal failure rate of small businesses in the first year. Many business are begun with wonderful dreams but pitifully little capital and planning. Understanding concepts like burn rate and capital requirements are key and SCORE advisors can and want to help. You can find the local SCORE resource in the yellow pages. I'd suspect you could even find some who share the woodworking passion. Hope this helps.
Tom

[Joe Angrisani]

Mike, Another source for help in starting up a business is SCORE (Service Core of Retired Executives).....

Michael.... Another thing to consider along these lines are local organizations. The Denver Chamber of Commerce, for example, has a mentor program that works much like the SCORE program Thomas speaks of. Check with your local business groups.

[Bill White]

First, and this is meant as constructive criticism not an attack, I'd start with proper grammar, punctuation, and sentence structure.

Nothing makes me run away from a business faster than getting emails, etc with terrible English.

OH YEAH!!!!!!!!! Kurt for president. Couldn't have said it better myself.
LOOK, ACT, CONDUCT BUSINESS as a professional.

[michael a nelson]

lol i would have to agree with the fact that i need to work on my writing skills a bit thank you for the constructive criticism i definitely appreciate any advice i can get from the woodworking gurus that reside here at the sawmill creek forum

[Neil Brooks]

In aggregate, I think you got some GREAT information, here.

As a former corporate VP, I really have to highlight the posts of Steve Schoene. You MUST understand your costs, but ... if the market will NOT bear a price that will allow you to make a profit, then ... you just failed before you got started.

If they're right: you ARE 16 -- then I totally agree with the notion of you getting a job IN the industry. Learning all you can on somebody else's dime, before you put capital at risk, is learning at a much lower cost.

And it doesn't stop you from building and marketing your own work, on your own time, either made in your own shop, or with the EXPRESS permission of your employer.

There are entire section of libraries and book stores concerning starting and operating a small business. SCORE and the SBA were two good resources.

But ... if it were me (or my mythical son), I WOULD strongly suggest that he find a job -- at least a part-time job -- within the industry, both to secure an income (as much as an income can BE secure, these days), and to learn everything he could about the business.

You're almost surely at the point where ... you don't even know what you don't know.

Best of luck. It's great to know that people are still looking at this as a way to make a living.

It would be even better to know that .... they actually still CAN make a living :)

[Jerome Hanby]

Find a woman who is smarter than you are, has the taste to tell you what kinds of things to make, the interests to evaluate what other offer and figure out the price for your work, and the business acumen to make your books work...then marry her asap. Since she is smarter than you and has good taste, that may prove difficult, but that's why hard liquor was invented.

[Bryan Slimp]

I would suggest that you become involved with as many learning opportunities as possible. Invest your time and money, and don't look for short cuts. I am a hobbyist who works at a corporation, but there are basic steps to running or managing any business that you will need to learn.

Look to the free advice you can get as others mentioned. Most importantly, in my opinion, is to take advantage of the education you can get at little or nor cost. Take any and all business classes you can in high school. The more you learn now will help you in the next level.

Start looking at your next level of education. If you want to own and run your own business as a woodworker you will have to be a double major so to speak. You will have to be your own sales, customer service, design, inventory, accounting, IT, and everything else manager. Take fundamental business classes at a local community college. Look for a program that focuses on entrepreneurship. If you don’t have a local CC go online, but don’t go to the big name online schools that cost a bunch of money. Visit your guidance counselor at school about this.

While you are doing that get a job at a cabinet shop. Find the old gnarly guy that knows everything and become his friend. Learn while you are getting paid. Emulate the most successful people you see there.

Start making small items that you can sell at craft fairs. Keep a binder of everything you have made with quality photos. Make take away collateral (brochures, business cards, etc.) that encourage people to call you for special orders when they have a need that arises. Start a website.

If you are still in it after a couple of years go to the Redwoods, etc. If not take the associate’s degree you earned above and go back to college.

Finally, as others have mentioned in round about ways, make sure that anything that you have posted anywhere reflects you as a professional. Proper grammar, punctuation, etc. are mandatory. Pictures that you post need to be good in quality and composition. Everything you post is a mirror of who you are (little escapes the all seeing eye of Google.)

[Richard Coers]

The most important investment for going "pro" is to have a wife, or in your case maybe girl friend, with a great job with benefits. You won't be able to afford benefits, and maybe not groceries from time to time waiting for customer payments. I quit my day job in another industry to go pro. Did it for 8 years till I ran myself into the ground and got burnt out. My cousin has the best descriptor for a one man woodworking business. Her husband did that at about the same time I did. She would tell people that Martin only worked half days in his business. "That's 12 hours you know."

['Jacques Malan']

Learning the woodworking is the easy bit. You like it, the customers know what it is and is willing (sometimes) to pay for it.

The things that will catch you, is the things you cannot see. (Talking a bit with experience here and trying to keep my english good.)
1. Learn accounting and it must be right from day one, and it is very boring
2. Marketing is the obvious part, and in the beginning it will be about 50% of your time.
3. Finishing is the only really important part of woodworking. Most customers doesn't care about the dovetails that is perfect but could spot a varnish run at 50metres.
4. Learn how to repair machines. Quote I read somewhere: "If you don't want to repair machines maybe you shouldn't become a cabinetmaker."
5. Learn to weld.

Or just ignore me, everybody else seem to. (But remember the accounting bit, it is very important.)

[michael a nelson]

thank you every one for your kind responses you guys have been very helpful and i appreciate it very much

[Kurt Cady]

I've got another piece of advice after seeing the 3-5 threads you created yesterday. You probably won't like this advice either...

SLOW DOWN!!!!

What's the rush? Where's the fire? Why do you need your own shop? Like many others have said, go get a job in the industry and LEARN. Then slowly build up your shop (start with one stall in a garage instead of a $75k building) one piece at a time as needed. Learning from a wonderful craftsman for 10years might not seem that glamourous. Or fit the American way of having it right now. But if you're serious about being a pro, the knowledge (and possible client base start) would be priceless.

And a third piece of advice... If you really and truly have $110k in your hands... Don't spend a dime. Invest it towards your retirement. And then, don't touch it for 45 years. Simple interest at 8% in 45years means $3.5million without adding anything every month like the rest of us. One less large expense every month (while still knowing your nest egg is secure) will be a tremendous help during those lean times.

[michael a nelson]

Kurt, yes it is true that i am going a bit fast & yes it is true that i have 110K in my hands but this all goes back to the one thing i should have posted in the blank shop thread me and my family are building a new house or have been building , and my dad and i were planing on building a garage shop for a while . While my dad will use it considerably less then myself he still wants to build it so he is letting me pic all the machines and all the odds and ends because i know more about fine woodworking then him at the moment he knows alot don't get me wrong but he is a trim carpenter his knowledge of joints spans not far beyond compound miter cuts in crown molding
it has always been his dream to build a shop and he wants to get all the right machines this time. so it is a joint or two man shop but it will be mostly my shop .
and to the put the money in the bank advice i actually have 86K in a trust fund right at the moment that has been gaining interest for the past 16 years

please don't take this reply as standardized teenage cockiness i wish only the best by writing this reply thanks again for everyone that posted i rely appreciate all the advice i get here

[Joe Angrisani]

No time like IMMEDIATELY to start writing correctly. Your posts are very difficult to read without capitalization or commas or periods. Very difficult. Make a commitment to yourself from this moment forward to proofread EVERYTHING before you hit 'Post Reply'.

[michael a nelson]

here are some pics of my work due to popular request 189315189316189317189318the table is poplar stained black
the pedestal table is one board of ambrosia maple
the clock is African mahogany i am in the process of making a door for it now
and the cabinet is made to fit into a trash compactor opening it is all poplar and it now has a slab door a toe kick and is installed i will try to get some more recent pics of it p.s. the shop in pic three is not mine it is the shop at school

[Dave MacArthur]

Michael,
I'm not sure you're actually catching this fact: when people above gave you advise to
1. proof-read your posts, and make sure everything is correct (stop using "i" instead of "I", and add some punctuation!)
2. take good pictures... post only good pictures... take the best pictures you can
3. market yourself...market yourself via good pictures and good writing

They were actually serious. Now you've gotten that advice about 5 times, and it's good advice. Nothing turns folks off quicker than someone asking for advice, and then ignoring it when it's given. If you can't muster up the discipline to adhere to these two simple pieces of advice, then it's unlikely you have the discipline to succeed at business.

My advice: get a job in the industry, in a small successful shop where you can observe and interact with the guy making the decisions for the business. Observe him, and copy. Learn the woodworking skills; then the marketing and selling; then the accounting for costs/pricing that allows a profit to be produced. Don't think about trying it on your own until you have that knowledge and several years observation under your belt. There's a reason that an apprentice system was used to teach people all that above over the course of 5 years minimum, usually much longer... because that's what it takes to succeed in general.

Good luck.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm not much older than you, and very laid back, yet you've still managed to
LOL!
More years ago than I care to remember....I worked w/Steve and Old Floyd.
Steve was kind of a bone head that wouldn't listen to anyone.
Old Floyd told a joke about a guy with a mule.
The guy would always whomp the mule upside the head w/a 2x4. One day he was aksed why he was always mistreating his mule.
The guy answered, "the 2x4 is just so I'm sure I have his attention" :D

After that, every time Steve went off, Old Floyd would look at him and say "Do I need to get my 2x4"?

Lot's of good advice here - but - I think a few people are looking around for a 2x4...... ;)

[michael a nelson]

I don't want you to think I haven't taken any of your advice so I am here to say I sent out a couple of emails for an apprenticeship .
I spent 2 plus hours online learning about proper punctuation and good business grammar.
I am also taking a ride out to a Amish furniture and cabinet shop to learn a few things and put in an apprenticeship request.
I have said it numerous time but I will say it again I do appreciate the advice you guys give me, it dosnt just roll of my back.

[Brian Kent]

Hi Michael.
I would like to explain what a couple of the guys are talking about here.
You are writing in a style that is completely appropriate for texting and for quick, informal blog posts with people of your age range.
As soon as you said the word "business" you stepped in a new room with a completely different standard for writing. You need to write like you were going for an "A" in English class. You can practice this right here and now.

Step one: Use capitalization and punctuation.

You wrote:
at don
i have been doing friends and family items but it is not getting the turn around i expected but i agree with you it will take time (i'm sixteen now so time i have plenty of)
thank you for you reply

at Anthony
i definitely agree with you on the fact that not every one will agree that it is a living or for me new tool money and i have had the people that think that because their getting it from me it will be cheaper then retail prices and i have been trying to make a contract up but i want something that is simply worded and can conform to any business changes i want to make any way thank you for you reply

Here it is with Punctuation and Capitalization (and a couple of word changes):

To Don:
I have been doing 'friends and family' items, but I am not getting the turn around I expected. I agree with you it will take time. (I'm sixteen now so time i have plenty of time.)
Thank you for you reply.

To Anthony:
I definitely agree with you on the fact that not every one will agree that it is a living (or for me, new tool money.) I have had the people who think that because they are getting it from me it will be cheaper than retail prices. I also have been trying to make a contract up, but I want something that is simply worded and can conform to any business changes I want to make.
Anyway, thank you for you reply.

Keep going, Michael. Hug your English teacher.

Brian

[Caspar Hauser]

Michael,

Before I address your question may I say that the internet has a strange permanence, so prudence is called for.

As to turning pro, well it depends on what you want to do, I'm assuming that you would like to make and sell furniture and the like for a living. This is a very common dream very rarely accomplished.

I remember the acute certainty of vision that being sixteen provided, I also know that that acute vision is very narrow and fickle, broadened and tempered only with time, experience and education.

To sell the furniture you make and make a living it will need qualities beyond mere perfection of execution, it will need good design. Design is what makes the piece desirable, great design is what might make the kind of market which might support a 'fine woodworker'. Design is referenced in your education both formal and informal. Were I you I would wait and apply myself and my resources to that education, a good college, some travel, a very great deal of looking, widening that acute vision and giving depth to that from which your designs will be drawn.

Learn to draw, take pleasure in it, draw everything, draw constantly, go nowhere without a sketchbook and pencil, take notes, you will learn far more about a thing by drawing it than taking a photograph. It is essential in communicating clearly with your client, it instills confidence or ought to in everyone concerned much more effectively than a computer generated image. Drawing is a civilised accomplishment and, if I had my way, would be a High School graduation requirement.

Continue to learn all you can about the trade by yourself and alongside your father, who, as a trim carpenter may as you say know little about joinery beyond compound mitre cuts, but doubtless will have a great deal to teach you about accuracy, speed, quality and adaptability, in short professionalism, plus he's your Dad.

[Kevin Begos]

I don't want you to think I haven't taken any of your advice so I am here to say I sent out a couple of emails for an apprenticeship .
I spent 2 plus hours online learning about proper punctuation and good business grammar.
I am also taking a ride out to a Amish furniture and cabinet shop to learn a few things and put in an apprenticeship request.
I have said it numerous time but I will say it again I do appreciate the advice you guys give me, it dosnt just roll of my back.

Good work.
From what I can see, you first posted on a Thursday, and by Saturday you were taking advice to heart and thanking people.
That's quick.
Consider putting some of the money you have available away for the future, but some into a good, safe shop.
You can get a solid starter shop for $15,000 to $20,000. If you invest in a good cabinet saw that will last you 10-20 years - or more.
Add a good dust collection system to the must list. If you're spending a lot of time woodworking starting at age 16, you need to protect your health.
Finally, see if your school or a local community college has a class on developing a business plan.
Good luck.

[michael a nelson]

I may have gotten an apprenticeship if I can justify driving an hour to Amish country every other day.

[Kevin Begos]

Details?
I'd say a hour drive is worth it if it's a good shop.

[Paul Symchych]

In addition to the rock solid advice many have posted above, namely to A)learn the English language [for business] and B) to learn the trade I will paraphrase an expression attributed to Warren Buffet that summarizes it all..
"your first investment should be in yourself".

[michael a nelson]

his name is Peter Yoder he is semi-retired and he does custom kitchens and cabinetry it is in Middlefield,Ohio and is a 1hr 25 min ride from my current location. he says the apprenticeship is mine if I want it.

[Matt Lau]

Michael, it sounds like a good start.

I'm a bit older than yourself (27), and I only recently got started working for myself two years ago.
It can be incredibly brutal, and the advice that you've been given is spot on.

Along with learning from Mr. Yoder, learn as much as you can from your mom.
Understanding taxes at your young age will be a HUGE advantage.
If you could work for her part time, you will reap significant dividends before most of your peers finish college.

And yes...proper punctuation, grammar, and professionalism is necessary regardless of the field that you choose.
You will be competing with the very best, who don't care that you're 16.

In any case, I wish you success!

[neal jack]

his name is Peter Yoder he is semi-retired and he does custom kitchens and cabinetry it is in Middlefield,Ohio and is a 1hr 25 min ride from my current location. he says the apprenticeship is mine if I want it.

sounds cool.

[Dave MacArthur]

impressive action.
Wow that's a trek though... You might continue looking for something closer, you did very well for a few days looking, I'd think you could stand to spend a couple weeks more seeking something closer, and might find even better setup? If not, then you won't have waited too long, and I'm sure the spot will be open for you.

[Don Snellenberger]

Hi Michael,
Here's a link to a book that Hendrik Varju has put together about starting your own woodworking business. It might be worth a look.
http://www.passionforwood.com/books.htm
Good Luck