Older PC router collet nut stuck solid?

[Don McManus]

I found what i thought would be a great heavy duty router at a yard sale a few months back. It looks to me like a current 3hp PC fixed base, but is marked 5202EHD on the motor. It even came with a 3/4" flush bit, which I've used a few times already. The seller said its was from his dad's door making shop, and he even threw in some mahogany that he let me make a test cut in before i bought the router. I felt like i got a great deal for $50.

Then i went to change the bit today.....but i can't loosen the collet nut... at all. I did a search and found a few hundred threads of people with bits stuck AFTER the nut had come off, or a self-releasing collet problem. But I'm not that far.... I just cant get the nut loose to budge at all.

I can get a lot of leverage by standing on the long wrench(The nut is 1 and 1/16th inch wrench, and the flats on the collet are 7/8ths(with a bit of rounded corners). THe 7/8ths wrench pops off the flats of the collet if I torque on it too hard.

It's an old threaded collet(i think), looks like it is split 3 places at 120 degrees. (see pics)

So what should i try next? penetrating oil? torch on the nut? Sawing off the bit?and the collet nut?:eek:
Am i missing something obvious because i can't find a manual?:confused:
Tell me the easy way :D

Thanks,
Don







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[pat warner]

Lay the motor on its side and hold the thing down.
Install armature wrench. Spin armature so wrench is resting on the bench. Put a forged wrench on the collet, hit said forged wrench with rubber or rawhide mallet. Slobber wd40 on the thing before whacking.

[Charles Lent]

I'll add to Pat's response - Once you get the nut loose and the bit out, clean all of the WD-40 off the collet, shaft, and nut. Bits can work their way out of the collet if there is any lubrication on them.

Some routers in commercial shops may spend a long time with the same bit locked tight in them. It's not surprising to me that you are having this trouble. Persistence will pay off.

Charley

[Bob Wingard]

Impact wrench ???

[Don McManus]

Lay the motor on its side and hold the thing down.
Install armature wrench. Spin armature so wrench is resting on the bench. Put a forged wrench on the collet, hit said forged wrench with rubber or rawhide mallet. Slobber wd40 on the thing before whacking.

It didn't include wrenches and so, never having had this apart before, I'm assuming that, by armature wrench, you mean the (1-1/16 nut) because the smaller wrench won't stay on. I'm gonna let teh oil soak in while run to the store to get a 7/8ths wrench (I know better than to use a crescent, but 7/8ths is missing outta both wrench sets, so I started with that).

So i'm gonna pound on the 7/8ths collet wrench, while the other one rest on the bench, right?

Anyone know if this collet easily replaceable/ available, if I completely round it off and/or resort to vise grips)

[Chris Tsutsui]

Another tip is to heat the nut so it's fairly warm or hot (So metal expands), then Slobber on some PB blaster which for seems to work better than WD-40. Tap the siezed nuts with something metallic with dinging it or damaging the bearings on the router. Then i'd let it sit overnight so part cools and contracts, put some more PB Blaster on and tap on it some more, and go at it with a long handled forged wrench. (Trying to work the PB blaster in)

If it still gives you trouble, I tap the wrenches with a mallet for added torque.

If you have a jawhorse or vice you can insert the router there and put your feet in the stirrups and go at it with the wrenches and hammer technique.

The methods above have allowed me to remove siezed arbors in chucks from 30 year old parts, siezed O2 sensors, and things like that.

My last ditch effort would be to remove the nuts the distructive way and replace them for a few dollars from E-replacement parts.

[Don McManus]

Impact wrench ???

I dont see anywhere that I can get a socket on it? but Ill look around some more...

[Bryan Cramer]

Try hitting the collet before soaking it in oil and torquing it. It helps dislodge anything that may have jammed it.

[Jim Rimmer]

Try tightening a little and then reverse; may break it loose.

[Don McManus]

i think ive tried just about everything in here so far now. Just to clarify, no parts have yet turned at all, forwards or backwards. The threads seem to be solidly fused.

I've put it sideways on floor, with bigger wrench pinned against the floor, standing on the router body, then rapped a mallet on the collet wrench. Only time that it moved was when i rounded a little more metal off the flats.

My bargain is starting to look expensive if i have to cut that collet off...$45 for a half of a collet? yikes:eek:

http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/cgi-bin/parttools.cgi/18051
http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/cgi-bin/bigimg.cgi/rockwell/5202

I warmed it with the torch and PB blastered it, but nothing yet. So I'm gonna let it soak overnight, and try again in the morning.

[Chip Lindley]

Those old Rockwell/Porter Cable collets are a PITA! Order a new-style P-C collet nose as used on the 690 (1.5hp) through 7538 (3-1/4hp) routers. You'll be glad you did. Some disassembly will be in order to remove the threaded collet nose from the armature shaft, but worth it. both old and new collet noses have the same thread on the armature shaft. While you're at it, a bearing job may also be in order.

Really old collet noses had a hex surface for the wrench. Later models had only 2 opposing slots for a thin open-ended wrench.

collet nose
189020

This collet is what sticks in the nose. The newer, current P-C collets are a great improvement.

1/4" collet
189021

Squirt some Liquid Wrench into the four cross-slots of the collet and prop the router nose-up overnight. It can't hurt.

[Larry Edgerton]

What a deal.......

I have over twenty PC routers and I never have any problems but.... I keep the collets clean and spray them with TopCote as a matter of course. I did replace all my old collets with the newer self release type over the years. Be patient, soak it for a few days, tap lightly on the collet nut with a small brass hammer, and if necessary the heat thing will work. With the heat you want to heat just the nut, so you will need to be fast, and have a controled flame, not one so big that it heats up the male side as well because nothing is gained then.

When you do get it off, clean the male and female threads well and clean up the taper with scotch bright, replace the collet and nut with new if there is any corrosion, if not spray with a PTFE type spray like TopCote and get to work. Despite what I have read on here I never have a router bit slip using TopCote, and my bits/nuts do not stick.

Enjoy your new router, it is a fine tool that does not have an equal in heavy duty applications. I run heavy custom bits up to 5" in diameter in PC 3 1/4 hp routers and all that weight is your friend. Great tool!

[Don McManus]

Well, I soaked it in PB blaster for 36 hours while sitting nose up. Still stuck. Torch heated the nut. Freeze spray on the bit. Learned that Freeze spray is flammamble. Doh! Still stuck.

Hammered, lightly, got frustrated. Hammer on wrench hard. Rounded off corners off collet's 2 flats. Still stuck.

FWIW, The trapped 1/2" collet looks just like the one above, but has three slots at 120 deg.

[Don McManus]

Possible next steps...

1) Sawzall the bit off, maybe the collet, if I can figure out where the armature stops, and the collet begins.

2) File down the collet to a 3/4" hex, so I can hit it with the impact. The catch is that the bit is so long that a deep socket wont reach, so back to #1.

[Stephen Cherry]

At this point, you may want to cut off the bit, and try and use an impact wrench. Something will happen. (maybe you need to borrow this tool, or go to a car place and have them do it)

[Don McManus]

I have a Makita impact, but the collet only has 2 flats 7/8". So I have to file the collet down to 3/4" hex to fit my biggest impact socket ... and cut off that perfectly good bit.

kinda hopin for an easier way out

[Jim Rimmer]

I think at this point :eek: you throw it in the metal recycle bin and look at CL and eBay for another router.

[Chip Lindley]

Don? Are you sure you are trying to turn the collet out "counter-clockwise? Lefty-Loosie"? Might as well disassemble the router now before it gets trashed somehow. The old collet nose is a lost cause anyway.

Here is a very worthy thread on tearing down a similar router:

http://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=84285&p=591234&hilit=porter+cable+bearing#p591234

When the router is apart, the armature can be held firmly between two pieces of wood in a vise. I made a special hardwood block bored through with a 1-1/2" Forstner bit, then split using the bandsaw, leaving about 1/4" gap.

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Use either "armstrong" power with a hammer and wrench, or a cheap 7/8" Harbor Freight inpact socket to loosen the collet nose (counter-clockwise) from the threaded armature shaft.

With the old collet nose removed, you are home free to replace with a new-style collet. Your decision to go for new bearings while it is all apart. New brushes too.

[Don McManus]

Thanks for the links, Chip. Those will definitely help a lot at seeing where Im going

And I am turning it CCW (when facing the bit), though I have tried the suggestion to turn it the other way, "to loosen it up". Hasn't ever budged either direciton.

I need to upload a pic again or something, because neither piece has a hex on it like you describe. Both are collet and collet chuck have just two flats, so a socket wont fit without some serious grinding. I been itching to get an impact on there, but gotta grind out a spot for it to grab hold of, first

[Don McManus]

My earlier pics aren't viewable, even by me apparently, so lets try again with an external link.

First pic shows the two round pieces that I am trying to unscrew. Collet with three spilts had 7/8ths inch flats , the chuck, which that collet sits in, has 1-1/16th flats(see wrench on right clamped to table in 2nd pic). Anyway, I cant see a way to get an impact socket on this without grinding it down, or disassembling form the other end.

http://img641.imageshack.us/i/pict0106er.jpg/

The second pic is when i was trying to hammer on it. 7/8ths wrench gets hammmered CCW, 1 and 1/16th wrench is firmly holding the chuck still while i hammed, becuase it is clamped to the bench. Woodscrews at on teh bit to keep the 7/8ths wrench from climbing off of its flats and rounding it over.

http://img861.imageshack.us/i/pict0102.jpg/

So I pretty much have to file a hex shape on one of these pieces to get either of them off with an impact right?

[Joe Angrisani]

It's hard to judge with written descritptions, but how hot did you get the locknut when you were heating it up? Without seeing you do it, I'd guess you have to put more heat to it. Don't heat it up like the molten core of the Sun, but don't be shy either. Get it pretty hot. Leave the wrench on the lower part to act as a heat sink.

[Bernie May]

don-
I doubt there is guy or gal reading this that doesn't wish we were there with you. This is the classic " I can fix that" situation. Voting myself - I wish I was there.
-bernie

[Chip Lindley]

An impact wrench won't help with your particular round collet holder with two flats. I fear that the contributor that mentioned that, mistakenly assumed you have the newer type P-C collet which is hex-shaped. The photo I provided was of a much older collet holder than yours, round on the outer end, but with hex flats cut into the sides.

189751

Try clamping the collet's two flats in the jaws of a metal vise, since it's jaws will clear the straight bit stuck in the collet. That will certainly grip the collet the the max. A wrench can be inserted in the two flats of the collet holder and a cheater bar (pipe?) can even be slipped over the wrench to increase leverage.

With the router clamped "face down" in the vise, remember that now you will be turning the wrench "clockwise". With the vise jaws firmly on the collet, something should give, with enough leverage.

[Don McManus]

update.. I got it off! (After i filed the 2 flats to 3/4" , I could spring the collet a little bit, by cranking it down tightly in a vise. Fifteen raps from a 5lb sledge on the collet nose wrench and it was loose)

Now for the questions. Where are you guys sourcing the replacement collet noses? This is the only one i could find with a pic

http://www.toolsandmachinery.com/product_info.php?products_id=87111

http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/cgi-bin/parttools.cgi/698807
http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/cgi-bin/parttools.cgi/874212
http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/cgi-bin/parttools.cgi/875893

It appears that all the newer router do use the same collets, but different chucks to attach them. maybe the armature thread is different where the collet chuck attaches?

I tried emailing porter cable, but no response.