Wood threading kits for vise screws...opinions on the two that I have found

[Rick Cicciarelli]

I am considering wood threading kits for making vise screws for a bench. I have only seen these two options....
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2000792/2411/Woodthreading-Kit-112-x-6-TPI.aspx
and this one
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=41791&cat=1,43000

the first one is half the price and is very much a tap and die set. The one from lee valley is twice the price but uses a router to carve the screw threads instead.

Any opinions on these two set ups...which might work better? Or other options that I have not considered (I am not going to cut them by hand).

[Sam Babbage]

There are a couple of small companies that make wooden vise screws and associated doodads, they aren't cheap but they're large diameter and high quality. I'm on my phone so I'm a bit lazy to search sorry, but I know Chris Schwarz has written about them in his blog.

Edit: I felt guilty; try...

bigwoodvise.com
and
lakeerietoolworks.com

[Russell Sansom]

In other threads it appears that we mostly agree. They are too small and too fine a thread for workbench / clamp screws. I'm trying to beat a path back to my metal lathe which will do 4 TPI, any diameter I want. After a long time away from the lathe it always takes a couple hours for me to get back into it. But how hard can it be?

[Jim Belair]

I used the Beall to make my twin screw vise (1 1/2") and it worked beautifully. You have to put up with the screaming router and its twice the price though. I wondered if hand cutting threads that big in hard maple might be too much of a challenge so went with the powered option. Others have been successful with the hand route and should chime in.

Jim B

[george wilson]

You would be hand chiseling MANY YARDS of V groove doing it by hand. Think about straightening that thread out!! A big problem is making the hole,though. You'd have to make up a wooden frame tapping gizmo with a scraping cutter to scrape out the interior thread.

On the lathe: To make a great.authentic 18th.C. thread,rig up a way to hold a router at 45º to the wooden cylinder you have turned. Use a flat bit as wide as needed to cut clear across the face of the thread( a 1/2" cutter will do for a 2" x 3 thread screw). You can cut a flawless,perfect thread every time. And,the 90º angle between the V's is proper if you look at Diderot ilustrations. The blunter thread angle makes the wooden thread more durable. 60º is really for metal,though tool makers have all gotten lazy,and make them at 60º.

Check out the threads on this large cider press I made for Wmsbg. The threads are 90º as you can see in the closeup. My hat for size. Thread was 12" in diameter,the bulbous part is 16" diameter. Each thread is 2" wide,for 6 threads per foot. The press sat outside several years,thus the old looking patina (which is what they wanted.) These were cut with a LARGE router blade held at 45º in a huge old lathe I managed to use in a country machine shop. The hole for the lever is 5" diameter.

The hole was large enough that I rigged up a long 4" pipe with the router mounted on it at 45º. After boring the hole out,the router could JUST be fed through the hole at 45º. The large log nut was strapped down across the lathe's carriage at 90º to the axis of the lathe.

The machine with the 6' diameter flywheel is the apple crusher I made to go with it. Crushed up apples were shoveled into a horsehair bag and squeezed in the big press.

The dark arched door behind the press has nothing to do with the press. Just stored there.

[Rick Cicciarelli]

In other threads it appears that we mostly agree. They are too small and too fine a thread for workbench / clamp screws. I'm trying to beat a path back to my metal lathe which will do 4 TPI, any diameter I want. After a long time away from the lathe it always takes a couple hours for me to get back into it. But how hard can it be?

The ones offered by Woodcraft are 6 TPI. I expect that is still a lot less cranking than the metal screws you can buy for a bench vise. 1 1/2" is too small? Seems I saw several wood screw vises on benches at the wood show this past weekend that were using screws as small as an inch. Granted the metal ones are stronger, but they are only 1 1/8". You don't think a 1 1/2" wood screw is strong enough for a bench vise?

[george wilson]

1 1/2" is pushing it for adequate strength,I think. We used 2" screws that I made in our vises in the shops in Wmsbg. They were 3 TPI.,and had to be changed every several years due to wear. 6 tpi. is a pretty small thread
size,and if used a lot might turn into a light bulb thread (Technically that is a knuckle thread) if used much,and start skipping in the nut.

[Rich Purdum]

Rick

I don't have any experience with your two alternatives at the 1-1/2" size but if you go for the by hand approach you might want to consider:

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/manualwoodthreader1-126tpi.aspx

It is basically the same price as the Woodcraft one and had the bottoming tap...not that you'd need that for your vise.

I have used the 1" Woodcraft (about 4 years ago) and it just required frequent waxing and clearing IIRC. So far those threads have help up well.

Rich

[george wilson]

It is unfortunate that a 2" wood threading tap and die set sells for over ABOUT $1200.00. I saw them in the DICK catalog from Germany some years ago at that price. We had one in Wmsbg. that was there when I joined in 1970. It was very heavy duty,with a cast iron die box that cut the threads in 2 stages. The tool steel tap also cut in 2 stages. 3 TPI. It was used on all the vises in every shop that had wooden vises.

I had to replace the screws after some years,but they were no doubt used more and harder than a home shop vise.

[Sean Hughto]

I just made a moxon vise a la Schwarz using a version of the woodcraft offering. I'm not satisfied. It worked, but the operation is far from smooth and pleasant to use.

As a typical woodworker, I resorted to buying a better tool - you guessed it - the Beal. I bought it directly from Beal, rather than from LV. Anyway, I have yet to try it out, as I only got it a day or two ago, but I'm confident that with some patience (setting up), it's gonna produce a much better (more consistently spaced) thread. I'll let you know.

[john brenton]

Arrrg! I hate to hear that. I am so torn here. I really want the ability to make 1 1/2" screws for any kind of vise I want, but I just keep hearing bad review after bad review.


I just made a moxon vise a la Schwarz using a version of the woodcraft offering. I'm not satisfied. It worked, but the operation is far from smooth and pleasant to use.

As a typical woodworker, I resorted to buying a better tool - you guessed it - the Beal. I bought it directly from Beal, rather than from LV. Anyway, I have yet to try it out, as I only got it a day or two ago, but I'm confident that with some patience (setting up), it's gonna produce a much better (more consistently spaced) thread. I'll let you know.

[Rick Cicciarelli]

In theory it seems like the Beal setup would turn out better results since you are using a power tool (router bit) to carve the threads in the screw. Still...it seems like one might just be better off by going with a $36 metal end vise screw from LV and being done with it. I just thought the wood screw idea seemed kind of cool looking. But in the long run, I would think the metal screw would probably function better anyway....

[Sean Hughto]

John, it may be that the thread box, in capable practiced hands would do alright. I made several sets in maple. The threads look nice - no breaking out even. The tapped portion looks good too. The trouble for me came when you put them together. While they operate, there is play along the axis of the screw and straining tightness and just all around lack of smooth operation. For moxon vise purposes to be used only dozens of times a year, it's okay I suppose (it would drive me nuts on a bench vise). I think the problem is that larger threads going into a 1 3/4 length tapped hole just have a lot of surface where binding or play can happen from minor fluctuations in the feed as you're cutting them, A really regular straight thread count over the whole length is necessary for smoothness in operation I'm thinking. The Beal product is much more likely to accomplish truly regular threads.

[Reid Strand]

I've got the beall threaders in all the sizes, and I much prefer it for 1" and less diameter screws than the 1.25 or 1.5 sizes. It is a big project getting is set up "just right" and the dowels or blanks need to be near perfect diameter. That being said, once it's dialed in, you can crank out screws by the yard all day. As for the durability, make a couple extra screws while you're at it, and replace as needed.

Oh, and its just a fun tool to have.

That being said, when I needed a vice, I used the metal threads.

[Caspar Hauser]

It is unfortunate that a 2" wood threading tap and die set sells for over ABOUT $1200.00. I saw them in the DICK catalog from Germany some years ago at that price.

It appears that they have gone up a little.

http://www.fine-tools.com/gewind.htm

Thats $1586.00 or thereabouts.

I seem to remember reading about the use of scaffold levelling screws et al to cut large threads in wood. To that end couldn't something be constructed using large diameter nuts and bolts? McMaster has various diameters and thread
types, including Acme, various 60 degree and 55 degree pitch threads at 4.5 tpi or so.

CH

[Salem Ganzhorn]

I have used the Beall kit in the 1 1/2" size to make a Moxon twin screw vise. It works well but 6 TPI is a pain. Lots of cranking. I think most metal screws are 5 tpi so really there is not much difference.

Note you need to be very careful with Beall setup. For the Moxon vise I made the back was ~1.5" thick and the screws work well without binding. At the same time I made a ~3" nut and another screw to use on a leg vise one day. The 3" nut binds. I had the pitch close enough to work fine in the 1.5" nut but not good enough for 3".

I am leaning toward shelling out the ~180 for a screw from Lake Erie Toolworks.
Salem

[george wilson]

You won't find coarse enough threads in large metal nuts. Metal threads aren't as coarse as wood threads.

If anyone cares to know,12 TPI is the strongest metal thread. Even a large press I saw with 3" diameter bolts in each corner was 12 TPI. These threads are not for continual tightening and loosening,though.

[Matthew Dworman]

There's actually a similar thread going on over at woodnet. The consensus is tha there are some major problems with the woodcraft kit in that many of them will cut a different tpi for the tap and the die - i.e. the tap will cut 6 tip for your nut, but the threadbox will cut 6.5 tpi for your screw resulting in binding at about 1" of insertion. Woodcraft has apparently acknowledged the problems. The similar highland kits do not seem to share the problems.

I dont know haw they would work, and I assume some modifications coule be done to create a working threadbox, but you can get larger metalcutting tap and die sets in the 2.5"+ range with 4tpi here:
http://www.tapsndies.com/catalog/item/6925418/6895190.htm
A pair will cost you around 5-$600 which is half as much as the german set, but as mentioned, you will need to build a threadbox to start the die...