Finishing something previously finished with shellac a long time ago.

[Mike Monroe]

Looking for suggestions on how to finish something that was previously finished with shellac. I'm building a queen bed and using pine paneled doors from an old, old, farmhouse for the headboard and footboard. On the inside of the lock mechanism (skeleton key type) I found the date 03-06-10, as in 1910. Anyway, I've cleaned as much of the old alligatored shellac off the one as best I can with plain alcohol and rags, but I suspect no matter how much I wipe or sand, the surface will remain sealed or semi-sealed from the original old shellac.

The bed posts and bed rails are made out of 100 year old roof rafter’s recovered of an old canning factory, milled to new fresh wood. Should I give the posts and rails a wash coat of shellac to mirror the color and condition of the headboard/footboard? Or what?

Whatever I do I plan on experimenting and practicing the finish schedule. I thinking of trying a light brown h2o dye, amber shellac, oil based dark cherry glaze, blonde de-waxed shellac, spray lacquer or spray poly.

Thanks.

[Chris Fournier]

Hmm. That's a tough one. You are certain that the panels were covered with schellac and not perhaps varnish? Sorry, have to ask, not suggesting that you are dense!

Well regardless it sounds like you want to have the bed components match each other and not contrast each other.

Given the state of the panels which have some amount of some sort of residual finish on them I would absolutely, under no circumstances try to colour them using water based dyes; this would make a colossal mess of things! Rather I think that you'll have to spray some sort of toner/shader on them to achieve the colour that you're after.

I'd get the panels to the place that you want them and then work out your finish on the freshly milled cannery lumber to get the match.

This sounds like a neat project and I hope that you post some pics.

[Tony Bilello]

Have you thought about a chemical stripper?
It usually wont remove old stain or patina but will get the finish off. Then you can go ahead and sand the wood to a new milled look.

[Steve Schoene]

If you want to use a dye in your finish schedule then you really need to get the shellac down to bare wood. That means using chemical stripper to remove old finish--break it down, not just thin it out. After stripping, being sure to neutralize the stripper as directed, and a little light sanding your surfaces should accept dye.

Why not just stop with shellac--the lacquer adds zilch to a bed.

But, if part of the charm is to be the old rustic nature of the doors repurposed as bed parts, you very well might want to make the posts and rails into approximations of the doors. You could use stain to help get them to match the doors. Use a faux finish crackle varnish, and distress them appropriately. But, it's purely an aesthetic decision.

[Mike Monroe]

It dissolves readily in alcohol. Squirt on a little alcohol, scrub a bit with a tooth brush, wipe with a rag, squirt on a little more alcohol, scrub with a rag, it's pretty much cleaned off. I tried sanding with some 180p paper, but it loads up right away with residule finish and gunk. I really don't want to mess with chemical strippers, the old patina looks good as it is. I like the color of the old doors once the old shellac is cleaned off. Some of the alligatoring is still discernable on the wood surface after removing the old shellac. The doors are plain panels, but the wood is really good looking stuff. I think it makes more sense to match the posts to the door head/foot boards. Skip the dye, go right for the cherry glaze. I think I'm just gunna have to experiment with it a bit.

[Neal Clayton]

ya know, you could just use shellac again for color. darker shellacs (like amber, garnet, etc.) will make different boards look alike after a couple of coats.

[Mike Monroe]

What's interesting about the door I've selected to use for the headboard is that one side appears to have been refinished (with shellac) at some point in the past. After cleaning off as much shellac as I can with alcohol, one side of the door has nice rich brown patina, but the other side has a distinct yellow tint. The brown side had heavy, heavy alligatoring, so much so the wood still shows a slight permanent tattoo of alligatoring in some spots. The blonde side was all shiny and semi-smooth sans alligatoring.

Another thing is the door was about 1/4" out of square resulting in slight adjustment when cutting the door down to size, one end stile is about 5/16" narrower than the other stiles. I doubt the average person will notice right away on the finished product. And I found a 1935 Mercury dime in the latch mechanism. I imagine a kid years ago slipped the dime into the skeleton keyhole for some reason.

[Scott Holmes]

The heavy coat of shellac is the reason for the alligatoring. The yellow side is most likely a varnish finish.
Shellac is color fast and will not yellow or amber with age.

I would recommend garnet shellac if it gives you the color you want. Remember the perfect shellac finish is the thinnest possible finish that is flawless. Too thick and it will aligator as you have already seen...

If you decde to dye or stain the wood you will need to use a chemcal stripper to remove the old finish.

[Pete McMahon]

[QUOTE=Scott Holmes;1671212]The heavy coat of shellac is the reason for the alligatoring.

Remember the perfect shellac finish is the thinnest possible finish that is flawless. Too thick and it will aligator as you have already seen...

]

[Pete McMahon]

Remember the perfect shellac finish is the thinnest possible finish that is flawless. Too thick and it will aligator as you have already seen...

Scott,

How thin is thin? What would you consider the correct mil thickness? Also, you always mention alligatoring. In your opinion how long does this take to occur? A day, a week, a month.......?

[Neal Clayton]

if you try to put it on too thick it will alligator as it dries, so more like minutes.

[Mike Monroe]

I think the 100+ years the shellac sat influenced the alligatoring also. I have to believe the yellow side of the door was stripped and stained with a Golden Oak stain and finished with a fresh coat of shellac maybe 30-40 years ago. The yellow side of the door wasn't alligatored, but the brown side was heavily alligatored. I suspect the door was on closet and the owner only refinished the side that was showing. The color contrast between the two sides is substantial.

Last night I did some experimenting on the yellow side of the door and on some of the freshly milled 100 year old straight grained douglas fir. I used what I had on hand; H2O fumed oak dye, Varathane Summer Oak stain, BLO, and Minwax Red Oak stain. Each option was applied with a paper towel to individual sections of wood (didn't overlay anything).

First the fresh milled wood:
1.) BLO darkened the wood a bit and made the late wood stand out a bit more. In general BLO gave the wood some depth and color, but not a lot.
2.) H2O fumed oak didn't do much, made the wood look faded with a dark brown tint.
3.) Varathane Summer Oak gave the wood a slight shimmer and really made the late wood stand out, darkening everything more than the straight BLO.
4.) Minwax Red Oak gave the wood a dark red color, covered up most of the grain with a muddy red looking appearance.

Conclusion: At this stage the Varathane Summer Oak gave the best result. One or two coats may come close to matching the patina on the brown side of the door.

Yellow side of the door.
1.) BLO didn't do much, if anything to the color at all.
2.) H2O fumed oak, same as BLO.
3.) Varathane Summer Oak browned the yellow tint slightly, no shimmer imparted.
4.) Miniwax Red Oak made the yellow tint quite brown which really improved the look of the wood.

Conclusion: The residual shellac on the door has effectively sealed the wood. Nothing is going to "soak" into the wood, so I'm stuck with pigment stains and glazes to get the look I want. The Read Oak stain gives the yellow side more of brown color which better matches the other side. Since the back side of the headboard will be up against a wall, it's not as important as getting the side that shows, but I still would like it to look decent (not yellow).

Tonight I'll try over coating some of the test areas to see what look I can get.

[Pete McMahon]

Neal,
Can't say I've ever seen it alligator in minutes. I was just wondering about Scott's take on it as it's always repeated in his posts. Since you answered for him and for the sake of discussion, what would be your thought on appropriate mil thickness? He always states the thinnest coating that is flawless. How do you explain that to a layman? If Scott see's this how would you explain it?
I've seen a thick coat orange peel and I've seen very old coats alligator, but minutes? I'm going to try and get it to do that and let you know what I came up with.

[Scott Holmes]

Pete,

I have never used my mil gauge on a shellac finish. I would guess the thinnest area of a surface is only about 1 mil when dried. Depending on the wood you may have thicker spots where grain filled-in, etc.

You only want it flawless; not thick like varnish or lacquer. I have not seen shellac alligator in hours but I have seen it happen in days; not on the project but a small spill.

[Neal Clayton]

i've mistakenly sprayed shellac too thick from my turbine gun and had it alligator right off the bat.

[Pete McMahon]

Scott,
I could see a small drip doing that. For a dried film 1 mill would be extremely thin. I understand what you're saying depending on the area. For the shellac work I do I end up with 2 or so dry mils.
Have you ever had a chance to get a real closeup look at some fine antique French furniture. You know what I'm speaking about, those pieces with a beautiful polish and a really rich shine? Those are at minimum 2-3 mils easy.
The point I wanted to make to those new to shellac is applying a few coats that build a little bit is not going to be detrimental.
I could see a novice trying to achieve a 1 mil surface and having a very hard time with it.