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Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 9:29 AM
This is my first post but I have been following threads closely and have scoured past threads for information. My wife and briefly operated a laser engraving business about 10 years ago, at which time we leased an Epilog Radius 30 watt engraver. Most of our business involved engraving photographs onto wood and cutting mirrored acrylic to make inlaid novelty license plates. We are planning to reenter the laser engraving business on a part time basis.

Despite the amazing amount of information that I have found here and elsewhere, I am still finding it hard to decide among the alternatives. The following machines are what I am considering:

1. Epilog Zing and Mini (30 to 40 watt) - I would really like to have a Mini 24, with the Radiance Optics and servo motors but the price is just a little more than I want to spend. The Zing 24 has the Radiance Optics only and the Mini 18 has the servo motors only. Epilog does not make the decision easy. :)

2. Trotec Rayjet and Speedy 100 (30 watt) - The price is right but the response for information and pricing from Trotec has been slow compared the speedy, detailed responses from both the local Universal and Epilog sales reps. Universal and Epilog also have dealers much closer to me. I am waiting on pricing on the Speedy 100 but anticipate that it will be more than an equivalent Mini.

3. Universal Versalaser VLS2.30 and VLS3.50 - The prices that I have been quoted were substantially higher than for either the Rayjet or equivalent Epilog machines, so I have pretty much ruled out these models.

If you own any of the above models, have there been surprises that would cause you to hesitate to make the same choices again?

We are planning to operate a laser engraving business (full/part time for my wife, part time for me) from a small apartment, at least for a few months, so any advice in that area would be appreciated. I am planning to buy a Penn State dust collector (1 to 1-1/2 HP) and as quiet an air compressor as possible for the air assist feature. The dust collector will be placed on the balcony and I will build some kind of quick-connect panel to place in the open sliding glass door for cords and the ductwork connection.

Thanks again for your past participation in this forum. I wish that a website like this had existed back when I first became interested in laser engraving!

dave hensley
03-27-2011, 9:57 AM
Hey Michael,

I just bought a VLS3.50 a few months back, so I am not in a position to offer much advice, but having been where you're at, I can strongly encourage you to get demos on all three machines before making a purchase. That's what I did and it helped me tremendously with my choice. I think all three brands will do the same kind of work with comparable quality, so for me it boiled down to the drivers/software and the overall 'feel' when I saw them in action.

Dave

Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 10:23 AM
Dave,

The job control software from Universal was one if the main attractions of the Versalaser for me. A dealer located in Kentucky (near our hometown) demoed the VLS3.50 for my wife a few weeks ago and she was very impressed. She also really liked the 1-Touch Laser Photo software and the quality of the end products.

We used PhotoGrav many years ago and while the results were very good, we could probably obtain just as good results using Photo Paint and trial and error now.

I was really disappointed that the quotations that we received from Universal were so high compared to the Epilog quotes. Based on what others have reported in the past in this forum, I expected Universal to be more competitive price-wise. Epilog and Trojet are offering what are supposed to be "show special" prices (NBM Austin) and Universal's prices have not been discounted to the same extent.

After I make a tentative decision, I will advise the other two companies of that decision and give them a chance to improve their offer. At this point, I am leaning heavily toward the Rayjet if I decide that I can live with a width less than 24 inches or the Epilog if I decide that servo motors will pay for themselves fairly quickly.

I have ten years of programming experience under my belt since I last operated a laser engraver. I hope to use that experience to create an application that will compliment the software packaged with whichever laser I choose. For the money, the consensus seems to be that Universal has the best job management software. (I have also read good things about Trotec's higher end software but the Rayjet's software is geared toward newbies and hobbyists.)

Scott Shepherd
03-27-2011, 10:23 AM
I'd not discount any of those machines based on response from a sales person. In my experience and talking to a good number of laser owners, the sales rep will be someone you hear from frequently until the check clears. Then, you'll probably never see or hear from them again. There are certainly exceptions to that rule as there are a small number of people nationwide that are sales reps/service techs and they really know their product and really interact with their customers on a regular basis.

However, for the most part, you'll never deal with them again. If you have any problems, even if you do call them, they'll tell you to call the factory. So just know up front any issues you have with personalities or response time will have no reflection on the level of service you get from the company. Epilog, Trotec, and Universal all have outstanding support and all 3 will send you parts overnight to get you running the next day. If all 3 offer that level of support, then you can take service off the table, as no one is better than the other, all will have you running the next day.

So where's that leave you? Take the sales rep out, take the service out, and you're down to budget and features. There is one difference between the 3 machines. The Trotec and Universal use Job Control Software, and the Epilog does not. You should actively look into that and decide if it's a feature you can or cannot live without. Aside from that, all 3 will do what you want to do and I don't think you'd go wrong with any of them.

Dan Hintz
03-27-2011, 10:26 AM
From an apartment? No way that's gonna happen without some serious tenant complaints. Dust collectors are loud beasts, and I would be seriously ticked off if a neighbor thought they could run one throughout the day.

That aside, servo vs. stepper should not enter into your buying decision. They're both perfectly fine at this range of machine.

Trotec was extremely slow at getting back to me on pricing (i.e., they never actually did), so I skipped them altogether. All of the machines listed are perfectly suited to what you'd like to do.

Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 10:34 AM
Scott, my wife and I were very pleased with the after sales support that we received from Epilog before and I know that Universal and Trotec enjoy the same excellent reputation. In our case, the sales representative was also very responsive after the sale. We only had to contact Epilog's technical support once and their response was excellent.

I may be mistaken, but I do not think that the Rayjet's software is in the same class as Trotec's more expensive machines. However, I have not seen a demo of the Rayjet yet. Based on what I can tell from the Youtube demos, the Rayjet's software emphasizes ease of use for first time owners over everything else. I am hoping to limit my spending to under $11,000, so that will probably rule out anything from Trotec besides the Rayjet. Trotec also charges extra for its higher-end software.

Ross Moshinsky
03-27-2011, 10:40 AM
Buy based on price and features. If you're a bit of a gambling man, you could also look into Chinese machines. I also agree sales reps are worthless. They are just there to setup demos, tell you the specs, and most importantly take the check. Frankly, their opinions are borderline meaningless. None of them run a business or run a laser 5-6 hours a day. As a result, their view point is completely askew.

I'm also going to agree with Dan. If you lived next to me, I'd kill you. There are indoor exhaust systems with relatively low DB ratings but they aren't cheap.

Larry Bratton
03-27-2011, 10:46 AM
I agree with all of the above, especially what Dan says about trying to operate this out of a small apartment. The dust collection being the main thing and if your complex finds what your doing and the potential for a fire, you might be looking for another place anyway. Good luck.

Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 10:48 AM
From an apartment? No way that's gonna happen without some serious tenant complaints. Dust collectors are loud beasts, and I would be seriously ticked off if a neighbor thought they could run one throughout the day.

That aside, servo vs. stepper should not enter into your buying decision. They're both perfectly fine at this range of machine.

Trotec was extremely slow at getting back to me on pricing (i.e., they never actually did), so I skipped them altogether. All of the machines listed are perfectly suited to what you'd like to do.I certainly hope that you are wrong about operating from an apartment, Dan. The quietest Penn State models claim a 62 db noise level, and I plan to place a heavy rubber mat below the blower and then surround the machine with some noise absorbing panels if necessary.

My balcony is not immediately adjacent to other apartments, so there will be some space and walls between the blower and them. However, I am ruling out the noisier blowers such as the cheap red one from Harbor Freight to reduce the chances of noise complaints. Also, I will be relocating when my lease expires in September, so at that time I will be able to choose a more appropriate environment for the equipment.

I also anticipate that it will take some time to build up the business where we will need to run the laser throughout the day. I am also concerned about smell complaints, so we may stick to rastering wood as much as possible for a few months. If I can manage to avoid noise complaints, then I might try building your <$200 filtering system to avoid odor complaints. :)

Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 11:03 AM
I appreciate everybody's feedback and starting to feel lucky that Dan, Ross, and Larry do not live in the apartment next door. :D

Seriously, I am concerned about being both a good neighbor and a good tenant. I thought if I select the equipment carefully (small engraver with lower cfm requirements) and stick with the least noxious substrates possible that I could manage noises and smells well enough to avoid complaints by neighbors. My balcony is bounded by brick on two sides and my living room on a third. I think that the potential for problems is greater from my neighbors above and below me that might be on the patio or balcony while the laser is operating.

As for fire hazards, we engraved and cut wood and acrylic for several years without incident (and without air assist) but we understand the potential dangers involved.

I am looking forward to feedback from members who may have operated (or attempted to operate) a laser engraver in an apartment before. It's not too late for me to abandon my dream but I am really looking forward to burning some wood again.

David Fairfield
03-27-2011, 12:25 PM
I'd test the winds a little to see which way the wind blows, might stream right back into the building depeding on which side you're on. I know a little bit about wind currents around apartment buildings, having been in my youth a paper airplane fanatic! (OK still am) Often the currents pull back towards the structure.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the big domestic laser makers. Happy with my Epilog, settled on that brand due to very close comparison of the engraving samples, and also the rep scheduled a home demo, promptly returned phone calls and kept his promises.

Dave

Martin Boekers
03-27-2011, 1:05 PM
I hate to say it you will receive complaints about running any kind of a business
out of an apartment. Once someone complains it opens the door for the community
to step up and start investigations, business license, insurance, code violations you name it!

Heaven forbid there is a fire, you may be sued for damages from violating terms of a lease.

Really, REALLY, rethink doing this out of an apartment, you stand a better chance if you
find a friend or relative that will let you use a garage for the meantime. There are some
small office spaces, you may find with a bit of research (I mean small 10x12) for a less
than $200 that may be adaptable. Also check with some other business that may let you use
space for a while in exchange for services. Check with local wedding photographers
as engraving is a product that enhances their market and find a good collablration.

There area many small storefronts in our area with apartments above, and that does
create problems with tenants and landlords and these are small businesses that have
addressed codes, licenses, insurance etc.

Don't no how close you are to Baltimore but NBM has a show there in the fall, check website
for vendors.

http://thenbmshow.com/baltimore-2011

See, once bitten by the laser bug, it will still be there hiding to resurface again!

Good luck with your adventure!

Marty

Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 1:08 PM
Thanks, Dave. After receiving the discouraging words in response to my plan to operate a laser in my apartment, I think that I need to reconsider by plan to vent the exhaust outside. I have begun reviewing the fume extraction options that are available. If I go that route, then it will narrow my choices of lasers. It's always best to prevent complaints instead of dealing with them if possible.

Which Epilog machine do you have? I have wondered if the Radiance Optics would improve the quality of engraved photos. I like engraving wood with some depth and thought that the smaller beam diameter might increase the depth slightly and result in a more discrete dot.

Rodne Gold
03-27-2011, 1:15 PM
I think you need to concentrate on core features and support mainly in respect of down time , you will need thruput and features like 3d engraving , stamp engraving and other bells and whistles are really not that relevant
I would test machines as to speed of the same file being engraved and set up a test file in corel to test line widths , resolution etc. See how long it takes from a finished corel drawing to the finished product , see how easy it is to do mixed engraving , like a file with a 1 bit bitmap , a greyscale , solid fill , vector engraving , vector cutting, grid , complex outline , very small text , very thin text etc. Look at how easy registration is with the software and the machine and what positioning options you have , like engraving from centre and so forth.

Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 1:26 PM
Thanks for the advice, Martin. Given the high cost of residential property in this part of northern Virginia, renting commercial space would probably be cost prohibitive at this time. I will be moving somewhere between Alexandria and Fredricksburg in a few months and could possibly do so earlier if absolutely necessary. The cost of living in some of that area is much lower than it is here, so I should be able to find something suitable.

As you alluded to, I was bitten by the laser bug years ago - so if it is possible to operate a laser here and still be a good neighbor, then I intend to do so. One thing that we will not do is use our apartment as a storefront. Our sales will be made outside of our home or through the web, so there will be no additional foot traffic.

Scott Shepherd
03-27-2011, 2:36 PM
You've mentioned "Radience Optics" a couple of times. That's a marketing phrase for their product. You won't notice any difference in a photo engraved with "radience optics" and the competitors optics. If you plan on moving where you say, you might want to take another look at ULS. The ULS rep, Paul Castello is in Fredericksburg and he's one of the most knowledgeable guys on this coast. He's one of the handful of sales people out there that knows what he's talking about. I can't say that about the regional dealer for another brand. Paul has done more for me than any other sales rep on any piece of equipment we have. I'd consider that in your purchase. Also know one thing up front on all of them. The price you are given is normally the "asking" price. Laser prices are certainly negotiable.

Doug Griffith
03-27-2011, 2:56 PM
then it will narrow my choices of lasers

I see it more as limiting the substrates you work with. Woods might be OK. Plastics not OK. At least as far as the smell goes. Noise will still be a challenge.

I've noticed that income from my laser is relative to the noise and stink it produces. I'm not making money if I'm not making noise and stink.

Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 3:05 PM
Thanks, Scott. I have already received an initial quotation from Paul Costello because he is the ULS sales representative for Vienna. I am originally from Kentucky and the ULS rep there is located near my hometown and did a demo for my wife a few weeks ago. (We lease a home for our children in college about 30 minutes from his office.) I intend to follow up with Paul next week. He and his wife were very helpful and responded to my request for information and pricing extremely quickly.

As I understand it, Epilog's Radiance Optics feature is their version of Universal's HPDF Optics. Epilog claims that it reduces the beam from .005" to .0035". Universal claims a spot size reduction to .00125" but it is offered only as an expensive option. Before making a decision, I will ask each vendor to engrave the same photo on maple plaques from the same source. That will let me give me a common basis for comparison of both quality and speed.

You are probably right about the reduced spot size not making a difference but I will take a magnifying glass to the test pieces just in case. :)

Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 3:15 PM
Doug,

The reason that I said that using a fume extractor will reduce my choices for a laser is that if I spend $2-3,000 on an extractor, I will scratch off the more expensive lasers from my list to pay for it. I will take a look at the home brew designs but I am basically a software guy as opposed to a hardware guy and an apartment is not well suited for construction projects.

David Fairfield
03-27-2011, 3:25 PM
Yeah I have no idea what radiance optics is supposed to mean either, its a sales pitch, not an engineering term. Rastered details are much finer and thinner than vectored marks, finer than the .007" kerf for that lens, so maybe that's what they are playing up with the fancy name. I'm just very pleased with the engraving quality and since I often work with very small scale miniatures, that's important to me.

When I compared the samples I got in the mail from the various vendors, Epilog's looked best under magnification. Maybe that was just the care they put into the free samples, and maybe things have changed since then. Compare samples, also it would be good to get run times for them. Stuff can look a little sharper at lower speeds, sometimes its not practical to drop the speed... lotsa variables.

Dave

Dan Hintz
03-27-2011, 5:39 PM
I certainly hope that you are wrong about operating from an apartment, Dan. The quietest Penn State models claim a 62 db noise level, and I plan to place a heavy rubber mat below the blower and then surround the machine with some noise absorbing panels if necessary.
I have the DC2000B from Penn State, the same 62dB noise level you mention... in fact, I just got it hooked up and turned on for the first time a few hours ago (needed 240V hookups installed for that and my bandsaw).

I was...surprised, shall we say, at how loud this thing was. Nearly as loud as my Harbor Freight red beast... not as high-pitched, more of an industrial whoosh, but still as loud. Trust me, you won't run this in an apartment without serious complaints, even on the balcony. Ever heard the carpet-cleaning vans? Yeah, loud. You need to find a location other than the apartment.

Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 6:23 PM
I have the DC2000B from Penn State, the same 62dB noise level you mention... in fact, I just got it hooked up and turned on for the first time a few hours ago (needed 240V hookups installed for that and my bandsaw).

I was...surprised, shall we say, at how loud this thing was. Nearly as loud as my Harbor Freight red beast... not as high-pitched, more of an industrial whoosh, but still as loud. Trust me, you won't run this in an apartment without serious complaints, even on the balcony. Ever heard the carpet-cleaning vans? Yeah, loud. You need to find a location other than the apartment.The DC2000B is listed at 65 dB. The models that I was considering are only 1 to 1-1/2 HP and are listed at 62 dB - still noisy but quite a bit less so than the 2 HP models.

The responses here have convinced me that I need to plan ahead for noise suppression and use a fume extractor try to keep everything indoors - but I am not ready to give up on the idea of operating in my current location.

Dan Hintz
03-27-2011, 8:03 PM
The DC2000B is listed at 65 dB. The models that I was considering are only 1 to 1-1/2 HP and are listed at 62 dB - still noisy but quite a bit less so than the 2 HP models.

The responses here have convinced me that I need to plan ahead for noise suppression and use a fume extractor try to keep everything indoors - but I am not ready to give up on the idea of operating in my current location.
The Harbor Freight model is listed at 85dB... and it sounds practically the same as far as noise level compared to the DC2000B. Don't count on that 3dB difference actually equating to a 50% noise level reduction between the two PSI models. If you don't believe me, find someone local who can crank theirs up and see for yourself. You've been warned...

Michael Conley
03-27-2011, 8:50 PM
The Harbor Freight model is listed at 85dB... and it sounds practically the same as far as noise level compared to the DC2000B. Don't count on that 3dB difference actually equating to a 50% noise level reduction between the two PSI models. If you don't believe me, find someone local who can crank theirs up and see for yourself. You've been warned...Thanks to your first warning, I decided to take a different approach. I am considering a fume extractor partially enclosed with soundproofing material.

With my first laser, I made the mistake of getting a blower that was much, much larger than I needed, so I know how loud one can get. At that time, I lived in the country and my nearest neighbor lived a quarter mile away and he could hear my blower easily with from his yard. Whatever I decide to get, if it is 20 dB louder than the specs, then it will be returned. I will get that guarantee in writing before I buy anything.

Robert Walters
03-28-2011, 2:42 AM
Hi Mike,

I bought and returned the Penn State DC3 and went with the Red HF + Router Speed Control.
I didn't find much noise difference and that the DC3 spikes around 24Amps at power on.
That may be an issue in an apartment circuit panel.

(Sidenote: PennState sell's your soul to ever woodworking and tool mailing list there is.
They did a typo on my order so that typo has been reflected on dozens of catalogs that I've suddenly started receiving.)

If you happen to have a dedicated room in your apartment, you could place the blower in a closet (with no common walls with your neighbors) as well as sound proofing, and vent outdoors through some activated carbon, that should take care of the noise and fume issues.

A heavy duty trash can with activated carbon and some 4" pipe could do what you need with minimal construction skills.

You mention wanting to do wood and acrylic 'and without air assist'...
Those are two things that can catch on fire easily.

Yes, you said you never had an issue. Well, it only has to happen once, See:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?125121-For-Sale-CHEAP!-Epilog-Legend-36-EXT (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?125121-For-Sale-CHEAP%21-Epilog-Legend-36-EXT&highlight=epilog+cheap)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157053-Fire-A-Cautionary-Tale (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157053-Fire-A-Cautionary-Tale&highlight=epilog+cheap)

In a multi-unit building, you could be held liable for loss of life and property if it was the cause of a fire.
Not to mention all the people that could be displaced without a home.

Noise and fumes is just an annoyance, a fire is another matter all together.

I wouldn't go with less than an extinguisher UL rated at 20A:120BC ($120+ USD).

$0.02

Michael Simpson Virgina
03-28-2011, 3:59 PM
I think you need to sit down and create a buisness plan. This sounds like a disaster out of the gate. Operating out of an appartment is a disaster waiting to happen. Sooooo many things to go wrong there. Lest just list a few.

Fire
Noise
Fumes
Power issures

Keep in mind that if you vector cut you will need a compressor and those things vibrate and that noise will be transfered throught the walls and floors. I think you will have more problems with the fumes than you will with the noise. Venting to the out side in an apparment is not going to work. The fumes will get you busted and shutdown, Probably withing a month.

I also live in northern Virgina. I think you are going to be hard pressed to pay for your investment living anywhere much less out of an appartment. If you allready had a buisness and the laser is used to compliment it then maybe. One other thing fume extractors need frequent replacement of filters to remain effective. You have to compute that into the cost as well.

If you study your lease carfully there is probably a clause about operating a buisness or operating dangourous equipment. A laser is a device that can burn your house to the ground if it is not watched every second it is cutting. If I were living in your apartment complex and found out you were operating a laser. A simple phone call to the fire department would have you shut down in less than 24 hours.

Mike Null
03-28-2011, 4:23 PM
I'm afraid I agree with that. I can't imagine that your lease doesn't prohibit such activities.

Michael Conley
03-28-2011, 6:15 PM
Hi Mike,

I bought and returned the Penn State DC3 and went with the Red HF + Router Speed Control.
I didn't find much noise difference and that the DC3 spikes around 24Amps at power on.
That may be an issue in an apartment circuit panel.

(Sidenote: PennState sell's your soul to ever woodworking and tool mailing list there is.
They did a typo on my order so that typo has been reflected on dozens of catalogs that I've suddenly started receiving.)

If you happen to have a dedicated room in your apartment, you could place the blower in a closet (with no common walls with your neighbors) as well as sound proofing, and vent outdoors through some activated carbon, that should take care of the noise and fume issues.

A heavy duty trash can with activated carbon and some 4" pipe could do what you need with minimal construction skills.

You mention wanting to do wood and acrylic 'and without air assist'...
Those are two things that can catch on fire easily.

Yes, you said you never had an issue. Well, it only has to happen once, See:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?125121-For-Sale-CHEAP!-Epilog-Legend-36-EXT (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?125121-For-Sale-CHEAP%21-Epilog-Legend-36-EXT&highlight=epilog+cheap)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157053-Fire-A-Cautionary-Tale (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157053-Fire-A-Cautionary-Tale&highlight=epilog+cheap)

In a multi-unit building, you could be held liable for loss of life and property if it was the cause of a fire.
Not to mention all the people that could be displaced without a home.

Noise and fumes is just an annoyance, a fire is another matter all together.

I wouldn't go with less than an extinguisher UL rated at 20A:120BC ($120+ USD).

$0.02Thank you for the excellent advice. To be clear, I have no intention of operating without air assist this time around. We did not have air assist on the Epilog Radius engraver that we operated about 10 years ago and had no problem.

I have read the horror stories on this forum and realize that we were probably just lucky. This time, I will place a fire extinguisher and a backup fire extinguisher near the machine and the air assist will be running whenever the laser is running.

Larry Bratton
03-28-2011, 6:44 PM
I'm afraid I agree with that. I can't imagine that your lease doesn't prohibit such activities.
As I said in my original reply to this, and I whole heartedly agree with you mike. It just isn't worth the risk either. There would be absolutely no way to hold the complex harmless and if there was lives lost you could be in a heap of trouble. Good luck to you if you decide to pursue it.

Steve Clarkson
03-28-2011, 11:14 PM
I'll jump on the band wagon..........this is a disaster waiting to happen.

IMHO.....you'll be out of business and likely out on the street (or atleast not living in you current apartment complex) in less than a year.

You can't run a profitable business with only a laser engraver.....especially out of an apartment.....especially supporting two employees........especially by engraving photos.

Just trying to save you $10 or $20 grand before you make a huge mistake..........

Michael Conley
03-28-2011, 11:35 PM
I'll jump on the band wagon..........this is a disaster waiting to happen.

IMHO.....you'll be out of business and likely out on the street (or atleast not living in you current apartment complex) in less than a year.

You can't run a profitable business with only a laser engraver.....especially out of an apartment.....especially supporting two employees........especially by engraving photos.

Just trying to save you $10 or $20 grand before you make a huge mistake..........Thanks for your concern but I am pretty sure that I will not be out on the street any time soon, although we will be out of this apartment in September.

I make a reasonably comfortable living as a programmer and my wife does not currently work, so the laser will not be supporting two employees. As for your comment about engraving photos, that's one of the things that we enjoy doing. I think of it as a hobby that will eventually pay for itself - anything more will be gravy.

Rodne Gold
03-29-2011, 12:36 AM
Expensive "hobby" , however no more expensive than cars, photography, high end Hifi etc.
The problem with treating this as a hobby is that you really need to maintain your investment in the machinery in terms of resale. I can look at my machinery in a different way, in that its merely a production tool and resale is irrelevant , I actually would rather destroy or dump my machinery than sell it on , I do this to stop others from entering the market cheaply. In your case , you really need to buy the rolls royce of lasers as if it doesnt bring you a good income stream , you can recover a good chunk of what you spent. But like a car , it might be worthwhile looking for a late model used machine with a warrantee - perhaps a trade in etc - the first owner will have taken the big hit in terms of drop in value.

Michael Conley
03-29-2011, 7:10 AM
Expensive "hobby" , however no more expensive than cars, photography, high end Hifi etc.
The problem with treating this as a hobby is that you really need to maintain your investment in the machinery in terms of resale. I can look at my machinery in a different way, in that its merely a production tool and resale is irrelevant , I actually would rather destroy or dump my machinery than sell it on , I do this to stop others from entering the market cheaply. In your case , you really need to buy the rolls royce of lasers as if it doesnt bring you a good income stream , you can recover a good chunk of what you spent. But like a car , it might be worthwhile looking for a late model used machine with a warrantee - perhaps a trade in etc - the first owner will have taken the big hit in terms of drop in value.Rodney, thank you for that advice and I have considered purchasing a larger used machine. I have read previous threads in which you have expressed some concern over people like me entering the business on the cheap and then competing by selling their products at unsustainably low prices. Let me first say that I have no desire to operate a high volume, low price business out of my home. If I were planning a larger operation, then I would definitely be looking closely at used lasers with more power and a larger engravable area but a larger machine is not just practicable for me at this time.

I leased my first machine and placed myself in a position where I was under constant pressure to generate income to cover my costs and I do not plan to put myself into that position again. On the other hand, I need a small, quiet and reliable system that will not require more time than I have available for set-up and maintenance. That is why I considered but ruled out systems like the Chinese Rabbit models. The total cost for the systems that I am actively considering is $10-12,000, including a filtration system.

I will probably take another look at the used market before I make a final decision but the cost of new lasers like the Rayjet and Zing models has dropped fairly quickly since their introduction, so people who have owned them only a year or two tend to have some unreasonable ideas of their resale value.

A secondary reason for buying a laser is that I develop web applications for a living and worked as a professional engineer for 20 years prior to switching careers. The laser engraving business/hobby will give me an incentive to develop some programming skills outside of those that I use at work. For example, although I have worked exclusively as an application developer for 10 years, I have no experience with commercial websites that employ a shopping cart feature.

If I had never operated a laser engraver in the past, then I would have been more concerned with the novelty wearing off and the machine collecting dust. If the laser ends up bing relegated to being used as a tool for other hobbies, then it should last many years with minimal additional investments.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful advice. Your posts here have provided me with a wealth of information even before I decided to request advice.

andrew zen
04-01-2011, 3:11 PM
Hi Mike:

I am an optimist, a programmer, and a guy who inherited a laser for payment for a software debt.

I put my Epilog 24EX in my office so I could program while it was cutting. I would look for flames and have my CO2 extinguisher or co2 air pistol tank (with hose to blow up bicycle tires) to deal with flare ups.

I was in an office building.

I worked after 7 pm to not get office neighbors to complain. I had the 2 HP harbor freight dust collector (got on sale - everything is on sale at HF sometime)


My office smelled like acrylic even with direct venting to window with a huge blower on a 20 Amp circuit.

I want you to have this business, but working in the smell sucked big time.

Working with the smell reminds of a girlfriend who worked in the perfume section of Macy's and how she had to take showers just to go out after work.

Living with the odor is something where I hope you have very close friends. Oh and that stuff sticks in carpet.

I know you have financial constraints, but you will have to take a plunge for 400sqft of office/warehouse to start this business if you don't have a garage.

Maybe you lose money at first, but you seem to have the passion. There are other profession with less constraints; like software contracting :)


But you seem smart and Fabreeze is cheap at Costco.

Maybe, pick up coffee roasting as that smell could over power the others.

David Fairfield
04-01-2011, 3:55 PM
Just to follow up on the points about maintaining your gear and buying a used machine-- having worked with an Epilog since 2006, I would have no problem in buying a used one, or any of the USA made ones, if all indicators were the previous owner maintained it according to the manual. They are very easy to maintain, too. Basically you just keep it clean and greased, and avoid doing anything stupid while its running. :-)

Dave

Michael Conley
04-01-2011, 5:52 PM
Dave, the most money that I will lose on this venture is well under $10,000. I intend to purchase a small laser with a modest cfm requirement (my last blower was a 3 or 3-1/2 HP model and it sounded like a jet engine). Largely in response to some very negative comments here, I will be buying a fume extractor and limiting (or avoiding altogether) my use of acrylic and wood.

There is no way that I could operate a full size laser in my apartment but I am confident that I can manage the noise and odor produced by a Rayjet or Zing 16 and avoid burning down my building. If I can't, then I might as well burn my engineering degree.

I have no intention of operating a laser engraving business full time - I love my day job. Even if things go well, it is unlikely that my wife will be running the laser more than 4 or 5 house a day.

Dee Gallo
04-01-2011, 6:20 PM
Mike,

I started out with a used Epilog which was a real dinosaur but it performed well and being very cheap, it paid for itself in 4 months. At the time, it was just fun and games for me but has evolved into a real money maker for me. I have since bought another used and a new laser. I applaud your enthusiasm and hope it all works out for you!

BTW- I exhaust outside into a blueboard insulated Rubbermaid box which holds my blower and keeps the critters and rain out. It's very quiet in my studio (I can barely hear it) and there is NO smell in my studio from burning wood or plastic although if the blower was not on, there would be (you can smell it when you open the lid). My studio is right in my home, so it can be done.

cheers, dee

Michael Conley
05-07-2011, 6:46 AM
Thanks to everybody who provided so much helpful advice both in this thread and in similar ones. After doing quite a bit of research, my wife and I decided to order an Epilog Mini 18 yesterday. I have also ordered a Salon TC-60 compressor for the air assist and will be ordering a Quatro fume extractor and a fire extinguisher today. We had already bought a new network printer, digital camera, and scanner for use with the laser.

To minimize potential noise issues, I plan to buy or build a cabinet for the compressor and fume extractor and then surround it with acoustic blankets. i haven't decided whether to make the cabinet large enough to support the laser itself or use a separate stand, but everything will rest on a thick rubber mat to minimize the transmission of vibrations to the floor and to provide an additional noise barrier. I may also have to use some additional noise absorbing material near the laser to muffle sounds traveling upward through the ceiling.

BTW, I had initially decided to buy a Trotec Rayjet but the Trotec sales representative never responded to my request for a written quotation. The reps for Epilog and Universal were, in contrast, extremely prompt and courteous in responding to our requests for information and pricing. So, instead of getting a 30 watt Rayjet, we are getting a faster, more powerful machine from Epilog.

Larry Bratton
05-07-2011, 12:07 PM
Good luck Mike and enjoy your new Epilog. You made a good choice. You did your due diligence well and it will pay off for you.

Matt Root
09-04-2014, 1:17 AM
how did this pan out haha??

Bert Kemp
09-04-2014, 8:47 AM
WOW! Matt brought this old old old thread to the front of the line and I read the whole thread never looking at the date:eek: and now I too and wondering what happened how did it go in the end up???:D

Kevin Gregerson
09-04-2014, 12:18 PM
Dave, the most money that I will lose on this venture is well under $10,000. I intend to purchase a small laser with a modest cfm requirement (my last blower was a 3 or 3-1/2 HP model and it sounded like a jet engine). Largely in response to some very negative comments here, I will be buying a fume extractor and limiting (or avoiding altogether) my use of acrylic and wood.

There is no way that I could operate a full size laser in my apartment but I am confident that I can manage the noise and odor produced by a Rayjet or Zing 16 and avoid burning down my building. If I can't, then I might as well burn my engineering degree.

I have no intention of operating a laser engraving business full time - I love my day job. Even if things go well, it is unlikely that my wife will be running the laser more than 4 or 5 house a day.


Hey Dave, I have plenty of customers who are doing what you are doing. They bring the laser processing in-house and use it for multiple things. Including engineers who basically have a machine shop in their condo. Though, if you get into really high quality stuff you will likely spend more than your budget as a heads up. Most people usually spend around 12k-15k to get into that level of business. Used universal laser systems are likely a better way to go for you.

This one on ebay even though it isn't my own looks pretty ideal for your needs especially considering it already comes with the HPDFO optic which in itself is a 1600 dollar optic. Likely that it does need a refurbishing though. But I can sell you the parts for that.

ebay com/itm/Universal-Laser-Systems-VLS2-30-25-watt-Laser-Excellent-Condition-/141395169052?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ebcf0f1c#viTabs_0[/url]