LN 4 1/2 high angle frog

[David Peterson]

I'm working some curly white oak with really difficult grain and, despite my best efforts, there is a lot of tearout planing the stuff. My plane blades are as sharp as can be (although they take a beating with this oak). I don't have any high angle frogs in my arsenal and have been wondering if this isn't a good time to try one.

So, with my LN 4 1/2, do I go with a 50 degree or 55 degree frog? Is there a reason to go with one over the other? Higher the better?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If you don't mind grinding it out later, I've had decent luck with double bevel sharpening. I think I'd prefer to have a higher frog, (preferably in another plane) just to make repeated sharpenings a little easier, but I'm cheap. It might be worth a shot to get at least kind of a feel for what you like in your situation. In my limited experience, higher is better to a degree, but if you're surfacing a lot of material, the extra five degrees gets noticeable in the effort required to push the thing at the end of the job.

[David Peterson]

I don't mind a little extra effort if it will give me a better result. My projects are generally smaller furniture pieces so I'm not looking at surfacing a lot of lumber. Faced with the choice of steeper (50) or steeper still (55) I wasn't sure if there was a specific reason to choose one over the other.

I have read about double bevel sharpening but have yet to give it a try. Thanks for the thought, Joshua.

[Rob Young]

Rather than spend time grinding "IN" and "OUT" the secondary bevels, just get extra blades to keep at the higher effective cutting angles.

[David Peterson]

Buying extra blades makes perfect sense, of course. Much cheaper than buying a couple more 4 1/2s! Part of the reason I was hesitant to buy another frog was the idea of having to change all that hardware back and forth, depending on the job at hand.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Rather than spend time grinding "IN" and "OUT" the secondary bevels, just get extra blades to keep at the higher effective cutting angles.

That's really actually the only proper way to go about it, of course. I really only mentioned grinding out the secondary bevel if the whole thing was to be viewed as a temporary experiment with different bevel angles. Certainly, I wouldn't suggest repeated grinding as a way to get different bevel angles repeatably! In short time you end up with one of those blades with a half inch of metal from the slot. (Maybe that's what happened to all those planes I come across at the flea market...) Obviously, if the double bevel method ends up seeming amenable, getting a second blade is the way to go.

Just remember to mark them...

[Terry Beadle]

I'm going to "assume" you are using a standard 4 1/2 at 45 degrees with a blade set to either 30 or with a 35 micro bevel.

No. 1 = how thick are your shavings. For such curly work, they need to be in the 1 thou or less range.
No. 2 = how wide a mouth setting and how far back is your cap iron set. Mouth should be very tight. Just enough to let the 1 thou shaving pass. The cap iron should be around 1/32 or less.
No. 3 = Put a 15 degree back bevel on the first 1/64th of the cutting edge. This is highly recommended by David Charlesworth YMMV...but if the blade is sharp and the planing gods allow, you will have a very reduced tear out result.
No. 4 = Put some English on the stroke in the worst areas. That means try to create a slice-ing action rather than blunt cutting in the testy areas on your plane strokes.

The above being said, you should expect to use your card scrapers or a Stanley 80 to do the finish work on curly or knotty areas.

[David Peterson]

It's a standard 45 degree frog. The blade has a 30 degree bevel along with a higher, secondary bevel. I've had the mouth as tight as can be and I'm setting the depth for the finest of shavings. The frustration is that the tearout in this stuff tends to be deep. There's a lot of thousandths to smooth out in some of those little pits. I knew a card scraper was part of the exercise but was hoping to get closer to a finished surface than I have been. This is the first really difficult grain I've run across so there's a learning curve here.

I'll try the back bevel on the blade I have. If that's successful I'll go ahead and order a second blade. And if all else fails, the piece I'm working on would probably look great in something a little less curly and a lot more forgiving.

[Andy Hsieh]

not that this response helps you in any way but this is a perfect scenario where the LV BUS excels. Take a 25 degree additional blade and add the necessary micro bevel and you now have a the high angle of attack you need.

With that being said, if you upgrade to a HAF for your 4 1/2, you could just keep it on there permanently and sell the stock 45 frog. Probably the biggest difference with just using the HAF all the time would be more difficult to push.

Andy

[David Peterson]

This all helps a lot. I'd be interested to get the LV but I just don't like the looks of the LV handles. That's a pretty lame reason not to give it a try but I am also trying to limit myself to the tools that I already have. I have a vintage Stanley 62 with an upgraded blade but the tool doesn't seem to have the mass to get through this grain cleanly. Lots of good suggestions here and a free weekend to experiment a bit.

[Greg Wease]

Since you already have a bevel-up plane you might hone some microbevels to experiment with cutting angles. For example, I have blades for my LN 62 honed to 38 degrees (50 deg. total) and 45 deg. (57 deg total--the max I can get with my jig). These both help with gnarly grain with the 57 deg doing a somewhat better job but requiring more grunt. I don't think the mass of your 62 is much of an issue in this case. I know the 62 isn't a designated smoother but don't let that intimidate you!

[Chris Fournier]

Your 4 1/2 is a smoother so just buy a steeper pitch frog, install it and leave it be! I have the 50 degree frog, it's harder to push but I am taking fine finishing passes with it so no biggie. The 55 degree will be even harder to push...

[David Keller NC]

David - One other hint that assists greatly in reducing tear-out: wet the wood. Generally you want to do this with a fast-evaporating solvent that won't swell the wood, and most of us use denatured alcohol (ethyl alcohol). You don't want the surface sopping wet - just dampened.

You can also do this with water, but you will want to use distilled water with no minerals in it, as water that contains any iron with stain your oak. You will also want one of those $5 pump-up spray misters for plants like the home improvement stores sell. Water's a bit more difficult to work with, as too much will swell the wood fibers leaving you with a moderately rough surface.

[John A. Callaway]

I bought the 55 degree frog for my 5 1/2 Ln.... and it is a absolute bear to push. I am building the Arts and Crafts bridal chest out the popular woodworking Arts craft style furniture book.... The author used Jatoba, ... I found Sapele that was the right thickness ( 6/4 ) and that stuff has some of the worst ribbon grain, reverse grain, twisty grain... Pretty stuff but a 45 degree plane just tore out all over.... So I bought the HAF and still have the LN factory bevel and a slight micro bevel on my iron... and I am still trying to find the sweet spot with the set up. To thin and I just get dusty shavings... adjust the blade down to take a full width shaving and I got tear out or I couldnt simply push the plane... But I haven't given up.... and I have only messed with the set up maybe an hour or two ... I have spent the last few weeks working and moving.. ( two car garage now ... YAY !!! ) so the shop has to be re-set up and then I will go back at it... but I dread that I may sanding this wood to a final finish instead of using the planes.... So In this case, with this wood... I think even a LN may have met its match. I used the HAF set up on the birds eye and some walnut that had tear out with the 45 degree frog... and it worked as expected. Perfectly... but this Sapele.... this is a whole different wood and maybe beyond my limited experience with handplanes thus far.

[Andy Hsieh]

was just thinking - how big is the piece? why not just use a card scraper? cheap and it should work.

[David Peterson]

I hadn't heard about the alcohol trick, David, and will give it a try. My free weekend to solve this turned south when a plumbing issue at the house required more attention than my woodworking. I hate plumbing much more than curly oak tearout. The one is a chore, the other is a challenge.

The piece I'm working on isn't that large. It's a small bookstand with a central column, tripod legs and a 20" x 14" top. All very Craftman-ish, I suppose. Simple enough if I hadn't decided to use this devil wood. I used a Stanley 5 1/2 to flatten my stock (I don't have an 'lectric jointer or planer) which went well enough. Of course, it all needed a lot of cleaning up which is where I got killed. It's a long way from a card scraper save. The stock might be flattened but it sure isn't smoothered.

Sorry to hear about the Sapele, John, but good info on the 55 HAF. I've read similar comments about that wood from others. Too bad. I've spec'd 4'x8' sheets of 1/4" Sapele on some of my dance floors in town. Tap dancers love it! But then, stage scenery isn't furniture and although it's heresy to admit it here, we also cover it with multiple coats of latex paint to make the shoe taps stick better. ---Now that I think about it, maybe that's the answer for this bookstand!!!