First Bench Chisels--Advice Needed

[Noah Barfield]

Hi all,

I'm new to woodworking and slowly putting together a collection of tools. So far, I've been able to buy most of my tools used and in good condition. However, it's been difficult to find a used set of bench chisels that aren't going for absurd prices (i.e. ebay).

Given this difficulty, I'm thinking about buying a new set. I don't have any definite plans for them yet, so I thought a set of basic bench chisels would be a good starting point. Would you recommend a set of:

a) Footprint chisels

b) Two Cherries chisels or

c) Narex chisels


Thanks,

Noah

[Pam Niedermayer]

There's no need to buy a set, just the ones you need.

Pam

[Jonathan McCullough]

I've heard good things about all of those brands. After a long search I got some Ashley Iles because the bevel edges come right down to the back so you don't bruise dovetail shoulders. Really good steel too.

[Andrew Yang]

Chris Schwarz (via Hayward) gives similar advice to Pam. Tools for Woodwork (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/tools_for_woodwork)
A few sizes are more critical than a full set. I have LN 1/4" & 1/2" in A2 and 3/4" in O1. Stanley No. 720 1 1/2" and a Ray Iles 1/4" mortise chisel with a 3/8" on the way. An LN 1/8" is in the future but otherwise I feel well covered.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Opinion of another beginner...I have a set of Footprints (1/4" to 1"). They are not bad overall, require a bit of flattening, and don't like low bevel angles much. IMO they are decent for standard chisel duties. The sides do not allow for getting into the finer points of dovetails. I have one Two Cherries chisel, I'm not really fond of it. It was so over polished that the corners were all rounded. I bought it before learning what a good chisel should or shouldn't be.
Right now I'm saving up for getting a couple of LN's. Unless the new LV chisels become available before I decide that I really need new ones.
I also agree with not buying a set. Getting the sizes you need, when you need them, from who you need them is good practice. I think in the end, I'd rather end up with a hodge-podge set of chisels that are exactly the size and style that I need.

[Harlan Barnhart]

Hi Noah, I fell for the set idea and now I wish I had one or two sets less and the money instead... If I had it to do over, I would buy one each of several different types (tang, socket, Japanese ect...) After using them for awhile, you will gravitate too one style. Spend your money once you know what you want.

[Joseph Klosek]

You can get a set of new chisels for a reasonable amount of money.

I have used the Two cherries brand and they seem to be a good bargain, but the handles are not so friendly.

I use a set of Barr chisels that I have had for about 10 years now. Before that I had the blue handled Marples.

Depending on your style of work. you will probably get the most mileage out of the smaller sizes.

I use the 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" the most for dovetailing and general cleaning up. Then the 1" for a lot of paring and heavy cuts.

I also have some English style mortise chisels as well.

I have stuck with the bevel edge style of chisel for all of my work and find that style to be quite versatile and useful for all but the most demanding of woodworking tasks, like mortising.

My work load is balanced between furniture repair and making pieces on commission, so I use my chisels every day for the most part.

Eventually, your type of work will determine the size and style of tool you find most comfortable to use for the task at hand. The best way is to get a decent set and learn to use it.

A lot of obstacles can be overcome by practice and learning proper technique. Many times the tool becomes secondary to the ability of the user.

J.P.

[Noah Barfield]

Thanks guys, this makes sense. I guess I should buy the tools to meet the needs of my projects, not the other way around.

Noah

[Johnny Kleso]

I have a large set of Two Cherries and like them but some dont like the corner of the back side is not super square as they are buffed to a chrome like polish and the buffing rounds the corner some..

LV has the same chisels but stamped Hirsch for $129 and free shipping
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=46403&cat=1,41504

You can also buy the Japanese Chisels from Grizzly a few people have posted good thing but be warned they are very heard and chip if you pry with them..

[John Sanford]

I'm going to go against the flow and say "Yeah" to a set. Not, however, an 8 piece set, simply a 4 or 6 piece set. I have a four piece Footprint set (1/4", 1/2", 3/4" and 1") that I have supplemented with a 1/8" Marples Blue Chip, and Sandvik 3/8", 1" and 1 1/2" chisels. I find that I use all of them often enough that I have no regrets at all having purchased them, even the 1/8" which gets the least use, and stands out with a blue handle in a crowd of red. However, I'm not working with them every day, even though I do use a chisel on almost every project.

As to which set, the Narex seem to be highly regarded for a mid-grade chisel.

For general purpose bench chisels, a set isn't a bad idea, or you can quickly build your own "set" by just going out and getting one each of the basic four, in different brands and styles of chisels, so you can sort out which type you like, or at least which ones you really don't like.

Oh, and the whole "wait until you need it" doesn't actually make much sense with mid-grade bench chisels. You won't know that you need a particular size until right when you need it. So, does stalling work on the project for however long it takes to get the chisel in hand make sense? Maybe if you're talking about building a set of Lie-Nielsen, Blue Spruce, Barr, or many of the Japanese chisels, but for the Footprints or Narex? Nope. Just jump in and get the 4 or 6 piece set and git er done.

The only chisels I have that I don't use much are my skew chisels, but even those it's no big deal, because I just ground a pair of Great Neck cheapies into skews.

[Paul Ryan]

I would agree with John. A small 4 piece set is a good purchase. You will use every size 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1". I would also add a 1/8". Personally I cant stand the Narex chisels. That handles are cheap and light weight. I want something with some heaft to it. The steel on the Narex seems ok, but I like my dewalt chisels better than the Narex I have. I use my chisels alot for cleaning out mortises after using a mortising machine. The other problem I have with the Narex is it is 10mm not actually 3/8". So it doesn't fit in the mortises made with my 3/8" mortising bit. If you plan on doing any mortising with a machine I would suggest buying only fractional chisels not the metric sizes. It might seem like a moot point but it makes a difference every metric equivalent is slightly larger than its fractional comparison.

[john davey]

I actually lke buying used chisels from fleabay (if the price is right) and especially flea markets and yard sales. Pick up any old chisel for a buck or two at a yard sale and learn how to sharpen it. Once you get your needs down you will know what sizes your work requires. At that point maybe a set is what you need or maybe just a few sizes. My point is there are some really good old chisels going for small money if you know where to look. Here in MD we are about to burst into spring and everyone it seems has a yard sale to clean out some stuff. It's a great time to find all kinds of old tools.... John

[Zach England]

My Lie-Nielsen chisels would have cost quite a bit less if I hadn't bought the marples and two cherries chisels before. I realize they are probably more expensive than you are looking for, but if you can justify the cost you will most likely never feel the need to upgrade.

[Greg Wease]

I have a few Narex chisels and think they are a good value. I prefer the finer grain, denser wood handles on the chisels from Highland Hardware to those sold by Lee Valley--sorry Rob. You might think about just a couple, such as 6mm (1/4") and 18mm (just under 3/4"). These seem to be the sizes I grab most often. The Footprints look like the current Irwin chisels made in China. The grinding marks are deep and the side bevels need a lot of work.

[Noah Barfield]

Thanks again guys. What about the Japanese chisels sold by Grizzly? Are they a good set?

I've been cruising the antique shops and garage sales, but have yet to find chisels (although I've found a couple of great tools that way).

Noah

[Paul Ryan]

The Narex chisels I have are from Lee Valley that may explain the light weight handles. I will probably begin to add LN chisels this year as projects demand. I dont have any experience with the japanese chisels from grizzly, I think someone said the steel is real hard and holds an edge good. But some have had then chip if you pry hard with them.

[paul cottingham]

I have the Narex chisels and like them. They sharpen well and hold an edge well for the price.

Are they the Lie-Nielsen's I've always wanted? nope. At the same time, I've never felt the need to replace them, even tho' I would love the l-n's.

The handles aren't great either, but I've got bad hands and can use them no problem.

[Jerome Hanby]

I've got Narex bench chisels from Highland and Narex mortise chisels from LV. I, of course, noticed that the handles were very different, but assumed it was because they were of different types or vintages. I had no clue they differed between sellers. I like the highland handles better, seem more refined than the LV, but again, I assumed that was because the mortise chisels needed a more robust handle to take the pounding.

Any way, I like the Narex chisels and you can get a set for about the price of a "good" chisel from LN. I think they are good starters to use until you figure out what you like and dislike. Then slide on down that slippery slope and spend some big bucks.

[Jerome Hanby]

I have a large set of Two Cherries and like them but some dont like the corner of the back side is not super square as they are buffed to a chrome like polish and the buffing rounds the corner some..

LV has the same chisels but stamped Hirsch for $129 and free shipping
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=46403&cat=1,41504

You can also buy the Japanese Chisels from Grizzly a few people have posted good thing but be warned they are very heard and chip if you pry with them..

Not sure if they are still available, but the two cherries set used to be available in a version that wasn't polished (and didn't have the rounded corners).

[Pam Niedermayer]

I'm going to go against the flow and say "Yeah" to a set. Not, however, an 8 piece set, simply a 4 or 6 piece set...

OK, I think I'd amend my anti-set recommendation for this. My context was of early bay, being able to buy huge sets of old chisels for pennies; and then deciding on Japanese tools and buying a set of 12, most of which sit unused. Why? Because as I bought the specialty chisels, such as mortising and paring and dovetailing, I found myself using those instead of the bench chisels.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Thanks again guys. What about the Japanese chisels sold by Grizzly? Are they a good set?

If you think you may want Japanese chisels, why not contact Stuart Tierney (he hangs out here on occasion, so you could PM him) and ask him to recommend a couple or four for getting started. He can also set you up with a stone or two for keeping them sharp.

Pam

Pam

[Chris Fournier]

Stick with Western style chisels at your stage in the game. Don't buy shiney chisels like the Two Cherries or Hirsch. After that buy the best you can afford! How a chisel "feels in your hand" may sound a bit goofy but it will define how you feel about your chisels and your willingness to haul them out and learn to use them properly.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Stick with Western style chisels at your stage in the game....

This seems like goofy advice to me. Why would you say such a thing?

Pam

[Derek A. Johnson]

First I purchased the blue handled Marples. Then, I upgraded to the yellow-handled LV set. The are fine, but the edges are so thick that I was bruising my dovetails. My third set is the Ashley Iles. As mentioned in an earlier post, the sides are ground quite thin and this makes a big difference. The handles are wood and nicely shaped, better than the LV set. Others have raved about the quality of the steel so I tried leaving the angle at 25 degrees, but I didn't feel that the edges were holding up well enough. I recently bumped the angle to 30 degrees with a 1 degree microbevel and now they hold an edge better than any of the others. There were a few minor issues such as chisel ends not ground square, angles not consistent, and tarnished brass and dinged handles. I guess I thought I was finally getting into the price range where everything is done correctly, and it's close, but not quite. I purchased the 6 chisel set and find that I use all of them. I especially like having the small 1/8" chisel that was never included in the other sets. I would recommend the Ashley Iles set. If I were to start all over, however, I would probably buy the LN set and be done with it or else wait to see what LV is working on. This is assuming that you can swing the purchase price and are sure you are serious about your new hobby.

Derek

[Don Dorn]

My Lie-Nielsen chisels would have cost quite a bit less if I hadn't bought the marples and two cherries chisels before. I realize they are probably more expensive than you are looking for, but if you can justify the cost you will most likely never feel the need to upgrade.

I certainly agree when it comes to the cost. Based on resale, they are actually cheap in that someday when they need to be sold, a more of the original cost can be recovered than with anything else. That said - my next statement might be considered blasphemous by some. I have three LN A2 chisels in 1/4, 1/2 & 3/4. They take a great edge but I don't really care for them. When using them for dovetails in anything harder than pine, I find they lose the terrific edge quickly but do retain a working edge for along time. The biggest drawback for me is that I feel resination when striking them compared to the cheap set of Japanese chisels that I had before them (and still have).

After I felt the resination, I decided to get the Japanese chisels back out and they felt like a railroad spike sinking into the wood. They also keep a very sharp edge for a long, long time. I never thought it would be, but my LNs are now my paring chisels. I think at some point, I'll probably try to peddle them in the Classified section.

[Andrew Gibson]

I love my LN chisels. I used them today to chop out some mortices. They took a beating and heal their edge well enough to be able to pare the last bit without resharpening.

tomorrow I should touch them up however, I have been putting it off for no good reason... mostly because they are still sharper then my old chisels were after 2 taps with a mallet.

[Chris Fournier]

This seems like goofy advice to me. Why would you say such a thing?

Pam

This seems like a goofy statement to me why would you make it? Instead why not refute it with your own personal chisel insights?

This is very straight forward advice for a person such as our OP who has claimed to be relatively new to woodworking and chisels.

Without getting stupid about this, decent western style chisels are quite a bit less expensive than Japanese chisels.

Western chisels, even butt chisels have a lot of blade to offer as the newer woodworker learns to grind and sharpen his/her tools. Not so the Japanese chisel.

Japanese chisels are desirable because they have a very hard tool steel which does the cutting laminated to softer mild steel back. Very hard steel holds a great edge but is prone to chipping with rough use and impacts - activities that a chisel initiate is sure to put their chisels through.

Maintenance of Japanese chisels is far more involved than that required for western chisels given their materials and design. In my experience the OP would use his western chisels with less maintenance time. Please don't tell me that you sharpen your Japanese chisels on a bench grinder and ignore the hollow back - both "timesavers".

Why suggest that the OP struggle with Japanese chisels if western chisels are better value, will suffice in most all circumstances and are easier to maintain? Nothing goofy about that; helpful yes, goofy not so much.

I have both western style and Japanese chisels in many configurations and my goofy advice was based on years of experience.

For the record I like sushi, saki and Suzukis.

[Johnny Kleso]

Thanks again guys. What about the Japanese chisels sold by Grizzly? Are they a good set?

I've been cruising the antique shops and garage sales, but have yet to find chisels (although I've found a couple of great tools that way).

Noah

Maybe someone will take the time to answer your follow up question.........

I seen good long review on the Grizzlys from a hand tool user and I almost bought a set after reading the review but since I have several sets of chisels already I dont use common sense prevailed :) If you buy they just make sure to read up on how to set Japanese Chisels up..

[Noah Barfield]

First I purchased the blue handled Marples. Then, I upgraded to the yellow-handled LV set. The are fine, but the edges are so thick that I was bruising my dovetails. My third set is the Ashley Iles. As mentioned in an earlier post, the sides are ground quite thin and this makes a big difference. The handles are wood and nicely shaped, better than the LV set. Others have raved about the quality of the steel so I tried leaving the angle at 25 degrees, but I didn't feel that the edges were holding up well enough. I recently bumped the angle to 30 degrees with a 1 degree microbevel and now they hold an edge better than any of the others. There were a few minor issues such as chisel ends not ground square, angles not consistent, and tarnished brass and dinged handles. I guess I thought I was finally getting into the price range where everything is done correctly, and it's close, but not quite. I purchased the 6 chisel set and find that I use all of them. I especially like having the small 1/8" chisel that was never included in the other sets. I would recommend the Ashley Iles set. If I were to start all over, however, I would probably buy the LN set and be done with it or else wait to see what LV is working on. This is assuming that you can swing the purchase price and are sure you are serious about your new hobby.

Derek

As a beginner (and a high school teacher), I'm thinking that the LN set is beyond my reach right now. While I'm having a great time making shavings and sawdust, I realistically don't know how long I'll keep at this hobby. Ideally I'd like to buy something mid-ranged that doesn't feel like a compromise. I want to shy away from the cheap stuff because it could be a hindrance in my learning. On the other hand, $350 + is more than I should spend on one of the many tools I need to get started (I've been slowly putting together a tool collection from mostly used stuff).

[Johnny Kleso]

I would buy the Grizzly ten piece set or the LV Hirsch set, either one is a good place to start..
Truth be told unless your going to cut dovetails by hand or do morticing you may not use your chisels much..

The Hirsch set may be more forgiving than the Grizzly set and is made in the same building as Two Cherries Brand

At least not told you to buy a thousand dollar BEGINNERS set at least :)

[Pam Niedermayer]

This seems like a goofy statement to me why would you make it? Instead why not refute it with your own personal chisel insights?

Because I already did that.


This is very straight forward advice for a person such as our OP who has claimed to be relatively new to woodworking and chisels.

Yeah, there are no Japanese beginners?


Without getting stupid about this, decent western style chisels are quite a bit less expensive than Japanese chisels.

There are all kinds of ways of measuring expense; but I'll agree that the initial outlay for western chisels is probably less than for Japanese chisels, at least in the US.


Western chisels, even butt chisels have a lot of blade to offer as the newer woodworker learns to grind and sharpen his/her tools. Not so the Japanese chisel.

I just plain disagree on this.


Japanese chisels are desirable because they have a very hard tool steel which does the cutting laminated to softer mild steel back. Very hard steel holds a great edge but is prone to chipping with rough use and impacts - activities that a chisel initiate is sure to put their chisels through.

I never had these problems with my Japanese chisels; although I'll admit I had more than 40 years of woodworking experience before I bought into eastern tools. However, most of that experience was with carpentry and refinishing, not too much chiseling.


Maintenance of Japanese chisels is far more involved than that required for western chisels given their materials and design. In my experience the OP would use his western chisels with less maintenance time. Please don't tell me that you sharpen your Japanese chisels on a bench grinder and ignore the hollow back - both "timesavers".

No, but I never hollow grind any chisels, or other edge tools for that matter. I spend no more time on Japanese chisel prep than on western chisels.


Why suggest that the OP struggle with Japanese chisels if western chisels are better value, will suffice in most all circumstances and are easier to maintain? Nothing goofy about that; helpful yes, goofy not so much.

There's no struggle, no better value, and no easier maintenance. Still a goofy thing to say, imo. I'd like sushi a lot better if the makers paid any attention to keeping down the number of ingredients. I like raw fish (raised in Virginia, piles of raw oysters back in the day) and rice, but not the other chemicals added today.

Pam

[Derek Stockley]

When I first started, I bought a basic set of blue-handled Irwin chisels at a home centre. I haven't seen a need to replace them yet because they do everything I ask of them, and I do actually use them for adjusting joinery and even occasionally chopping dovetails. My suggestion would be to get a basic set fairly cheap, avoid the vintage ones for now, and do two things before you start over-thinking this particular purchase:

1) Since you're new to woodworking, decide whether or not you want to do a lot of hand work or you want to focus on power tools. Good chisels make expensive paperweights.
2) Learn how to sharpen on a cheap set.

Even if you decide later that you're totally committed to hand methods and use your chisels every day, those cheap-o ones will find a use for those odd jobs where you don't want to risk the higher quality ones you'll select later.

[Andrew Teich]

I have the Narex Chisels from Highland. I have 5 sizes of the bench chisels, I ordered the 4 pc set plus a 10mm (because the tool list for a class I was about to take required that size). I also ordered the 3 pc mortise chisel set. Total damage about 75 plus shipping.

The handles are similar on the Narex Highland Mortise vs Narex Highland Bench except that they are oriented differently to the blade and the mortise chisel handle is longer and thicker. Both handles have flattened spots to keep them from rolling as well as a shape where you would hold your hand. On the Bench chisel these are on the same plane as the cutting edge. On the Mortise chisel they are perpendicular to the cutting edge. (See Photos)
188533188534

[glenn bradley]

Thanks again guys. What about the Japanese chisels sold by Grizzly? Are they a good set?

These were rated in the top 4 (this one for Best Value) by Fine Woodworking Magazine. I bought one because I wanted a better 1/4" chisel than the one that came in my Marples set but, I wasn't ready to spend enough to buy a known high end chisel. So many of the top names tested poorly, I was unsure of what to get. The grizzly works well by hand but fractures easily when tapped with my little brass mallet.

The Marples is superior and the Grizzly lays in the back of the drawer. Maybe there is a consistency problem and the ones FWW tested just happened to be a bit better -or- my usual luck was in play and I just happened to get a lemon. As to the poor results on some of the big names tested; this would not be the first FWW review that didn't jive with reality. Like many reviews, they are good for information but, none are really the last word. ;-)

[Noah Barfield]

Thanks again everyone. The Narex chisels are starting to look like a good idea. If you don't mind, I have another dumb / newb question:

I would like to learn how to make dovetail joints. There seems to be many different types of chisels out there (bench, mortise, butt, carving, etc.). Which would be best for learning to make dovetails? If I bought a set for dovetail joints, would they be good general purpose chisels too?

[Chris Fournier]

Ha, I'm a sucker for sure to answer this one but I love the beatings!

As you have already stated that you are not certain that this enterprise is gonna be a life long habit and you are trying to keep cost down go with a 4 pc set of bench chisels. The bench chisels will do almost everything okay but occasionally leave you wanting. You can do some creative grinding to make any bench chisel work very well on dovetails; if you want to perhaps you can regrind one extra 1/4" or 3/8" bench chisel for this task. There are dedicated dovetailing chisels that perform beautifully but these are specialised for this task; a real treat to use but perhaps a purchase for down the road for you.

Don't forget that chisels require sharpening and you're gonna be spending some money getting a sharpening set up going in your shop when your pretty much useless out of the box chisels arrive! Decent quality but sharp chisels will trump dull high quality chisels every cut!

Your next fire storm will be to ask "what do I need to sharpen my new chisels?" Maybe, just maybe I'll sit that one out...

[Andrew Teich]

Noah,
I'm new in woodworking so my experience is small, many of your threads are related to my own interests, I'm looking at a building a bench and figuring out the vise situation as well. The Narex Bench chisels were just fine at chopping out the dovetail in the class I took. Just make sure that you aren't trying to make pins or tails narrower than your smallest chisel and you'll be fine as long as they are sharp. As long as the chisel was sharp, and the technique the instructor demonstrated was used, all students in that class were successful. Some had nice older chisels, one had some DeWalt chisels, I had the Narex and the instructor had the Two Cherries. The kerf of the saw cut kept me from bruising the edge of my dovetail with the Narex Bench Chisel. I think just get them, sharpen them and get started. You can worry about the specialty or high dollar chisels later if you find a need for them.

The tools that I didn't have when I went to that class, but were essential to my success, were the small machinist square, Sliding T-Bevel, knife to mark with, Jeff Hamilton marking gauge and a decent backsaw. I'm awaiting a package that contains most of these tools to arrive.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Thanks again everyone. The Narex chisels are starting to look like a good idea. If you don't mind, I have another dumb / newb question:

I would like to learn how to make dovetail joints. There seems to be many different types of chisels out there (bench, mortise, butt, carving, etc.). Which would be best for learning to make dovetails? If I bought a set for dovetail joints, would they be good general purpose chisels too?

The best thing you can do to enhance your dovetailing experience is to practice sawing a straight line. You certainly don't need special chisels, saws or layout tools.

Pam

[Jonathan McCullough]

Ashley Iles or Lie Nielsen for dovetails. I don't have the LNs but have examined them and they're ground down to the backs too. The AI butt chisels are nice and short for chopping. The AI dovetail chisels at Tools for Working Wood are nice for paring. The regular AI chisels would be nice all-rounders. I looked for some Japanese chisels that are ground down to the backs but couldn't find any, and everything else filed under "bench chisel" is really a firmer chisels with slightly beveled edges--decorative really. You can do dovetails without chisels like that; technically I suppose you could use a kitchen spoon instead. It's just nice to use a tool that's really suited for the task.

[Derek A. Johnson]

Noah,

How long have you been teaching? What do you teach? I am a high school physics teacher, and as a teacher I have found woodworking to be a great way to take my mind off of work. It requires so much thought and concentration that, before you realize it, you haven't thought about school in hours! :)

The only reason I say that I would have purchased the LN set to start is that I would have saved money in the long run. If I had bought the LN chisels and stopped woodworking, then it would have been a waste of money compared to a cheaper set, so it's always a bit of a gamble. Maybe we all have to go through the process of upgrading as we discover that we really are serious about a hobby. I have gotten more into hand tools so chisels have taken on more importance than when I worked with mostly power tools--if I was still just a power tool guy I doubt I would have upgraded. It was learning dovetails that pushed me to upgrade, with bruised dovetails and crumbling chisel edges. If money is an issue it is better to buy what you can afford and get going. If you can swing it and think you are likely serious about WW, buy the better chisels. The price of wood will soon dwarf what you spend on tools anyhow.

I also recommend the LV dovetail saw if you are going to learn dovetails.

Derek

[Pam Niedermayer]

Ashley Iles or Lie Nielsen for dovetails. I don't have the LNs but have examined them and they're ground down to the backs too. The AI butt chisels are nice and short for chopping. The AI dovetail chisels at Tools for Working Wood are nice for paring. The regular AI chisels would be nice all-rounders. I looked for some Japanese chisels that are ground down to the backs but couldn't find any, and everything else filed under "bench chisel" is really a firmer chisels with slightly beveled edges--decorative really. You can do dovetails without chisels like that; technically I suppose you could use a kitchen spoon instead. It's just nice to use a tool that's really suited for the task.

You certainly can do dovetails with regular chisels, and perfectly, too.

Here are front and back of some Japanese, in which the "ground down feature" is irrelevant:

[Jonathan McCullough]

You certainly can do dovetails with regular chisels, and perfectly, too.

How do you clean out the corners of your dovetails with regular chisels without bruising the sides?

Those Tasai fishtail chisels look like just the thing to clean out the tippee corners of half-blind dovetails. Is it a traditional Japanese chisel design, and if so, what is its original purpose? My understanding--and correct me if I'm wrong--is that dovetails don't feature much in traditional Japanese joinery. I've never seen those. Where do you get them, and how much do they cost? Are you using them for dovetails?

[george wilson]

If you saw my film about making a spinet,I used square edged firmer chisels for my dovetails since beveled chisels weren't common in the 18th.C.. Got along just fine by angling the chisels to clean out around the dovetails. My dovetails,of course,weren't those extremely thin tailed types that came into fashion later.

Old timers just ground a short bevel on the sides of their firmer chisels. These bevels tapered out to nothing in about 1/2". Just enough to allow getting into the corners of dovetails.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Where do you get them, and how much do they cost? Are you using them for dovetails?

I got mine (6mm, 9mm, 12mm) from Tomohito Iida at www-dot-japantools-iida-dot-com (under "Other Chisels" page 5) when they were $147 ea w/o shipping. They are now $197 ea w/o shipping. I am getting the hooped males by Koyamaichi with the thin sides from Stu in the same wood (Gummi) and sizes but at a much better price. I know they won't be Tasais but I can't see spending $600 + shipping on just 3 chisels. I have limits.

[Pam Niedermayer]

How do you clean out the corners of your dovetails with regular chisels without bruising the sides?

Like George said.


Those Tasai fishtail chisels look like just the thing to clean out the tippee corners of half-blind dovetails. Is it a traditional Japanese chisel design, and if so, what is its original purpose? My understanding--and correct me if I'm wrong--is that dovetails don't feature much in traditional Japanese joinery. I've never seen those. Where do you get them, and how much do they cost? Are you using them for dovetails?

I don't know the history, first saw them 2-3 years ago and immediately lusted. I recently bought one of each to test out and will get back to you on their effectiveness. I may follow Orlando's lead on the male version, depending on how much I like the Koyamaichi I have on order from Stu. Thanks, Orlando, I didn't know. :)

Previously I commissioned Michio Tasai to make me a 9-10 mm bachi nomi for half-blinds, which works wonderfully (you can see this on Tomohito's site in other chisels). I didn't want the ones sold by Japan Woodworker for several reasons, one of which is those only come in inches with the smallest being 1/2". Slightly too big for what I was doing at the time.

BTW, some of you may have noticed that LN now has their version, called fishtails, which is a hint as to the Japanese history, kind of very special fishtails.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I know they won't be Tasais but I can't see spending $600 + shipping on just 3 chisels. I have limits.

Limits??!! We don't need no stinking limits. :)

Pam

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Limits??!! We don't need no limits. :) Pam

Pam,

I try to convince myself of that, but then I look around and see someone who I have been around for 32 years and I QUICKLY unconvince myself. :D

I was going to get the male version but I thought that a $50 hike in the price was a bit steep. I asked Tomohitio about it and he said that it was due to the exchange rate, but I'm not totally buying it.

The Koymaichis are on the way. I'll PM you some pics once they get here. Derek has a review of them here:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KoyamaichiChisels.html

Orlando

[Pam Niedermayer]

Jack and I have been together for almost 37 years, and he still has no idea how much my tools cost (some of them were very, very cheap, too).

If it is the exchange rate, they should come down in price real soon now.

Thanks for notification, will enjoy hearing more about the Koyamaichi. Good review by Derek.

Pam

[george wilson]

It would not be difficult with just a Mapp gas torch and some 1/4" square W1 from MSC,and a piece of iron to beat on to make some simple fishtail chisels for dovetailing. Not long ago I posted pictures of a set of fishtail gouges I made from 1/4" square W1. Making flat chisels would be even simpler. Heat the steel on 1 end. Hammer to flatten the end. Heat to orange,quench in water. Sand bright. Heat from the handle end till the cutting end has a brown color spread over it. Quench at once. Grind or forge a tapered tang on the other end. Only the cutting end has to be hardened. Make a handle.

[Pam Niedermayer]

It would not be difficult with just a Mapp gas torch and some 1/4" square W1 from MSC,and a piece of iron to beat on to make some simple fishtail chisels for dovetailing. Not long ago I posted pictures of a set of fishtail gouges I made from 1/4" square W1. Making flat chisels would be even simpler. Heat the steel on 1 end. Hammer to flatten the end. Heat to orange,quench in water. Sand bright. Heat from the handle end till the cutting end has a brown color spread over it. Quench at once. Grind or forge a tapered tang on the other end. Only the cutting end has to be hardened. Make a handle.

Yes, but I hate blacksmithing. :) Beautiful chisels you made, though, may have to get over my hatred real soon now.

Actually, probably cheaper than a Mapp is the set of Chinese carving fishtails from Dick in Germany that I linked to in an earlier message. They do need a lot of tuning.

Pam

[Jonathan McCullough]

If you saw my film about making a spinet,I used square edged firmer chisels for my dovetails since beveled chisels weren't common in the 18th.C.. Got along just fine by angling the chisels to clean out around the dovetails. My dovetails,of course,weren't those extremely thin tailed types that came into fashion later.

Old timers just ground a short bevel on the sides of their firmer chisels. These bevels tapered out to nothing in about 1/2". Just enough to allow getting into the corners of dovetails.

That's interesting. Most of the old firmer chisels I run across are fairly thin (˜1/8") and, being well-loved, quite short. I've speculated they did just that--ground enough bevel onto the shoulders to slip in there, but have never come across evidence of it. Some of the old Buck Brothers tanged bevel-edge chisels have the appearance of having been forged and ground that way. It also occurred to me that you could grind away on the sides of all those ordinary so-called "bevel edge" bench chisels out there if you wanted to, but that's kind of an obnoxious PIA, especially for a beginner. That's why when people ask, I always recommend the AIs.

Pam, if you have any Tasai chisels from sets you regret buying in the past, I run a chisel buyer's remorse program where you can send them postage due, no questions asked. Our expert technicians specialize in caring for Western chisels but could make an exception in your case.

[David Weaver]

The Koymaichis are on the way. I'll PM you some pics once they get here. Derek has a review of them here:

Orlando

I bought the set of 6 of those from LV when (thanks to the exchange rate) they were $299 for six with a tool roll.

Between that and two skews, I can't imagine getting any other DT chisels.

The ones LV sells are like the later ones Derek mentions in his article - a very delicate side on them, so small and sharp that if you have a habit of eying your dovetails and using the chisels one handed to clean out the junction (on something with pins too tight to do a release cut), you may find you've cut your finger from the beveled sides (and not the cutting edge), not deeply, but enough to bleed. It is really nice to have a side that delicate for cleaning out DTs - you can be brainless and go all of the way into the corner of the DT without skewing the chisel, and still not bruise any wood.

I tape the joint on that finger now if I'm cutting dovetails, no problem.

Tough break for derek getting the older dovetail chisels that are made the traditional japanese way. They can always be pushed on ebay and replaced with new ones. That's a warning to anyone ordering dovetail chisels anywhere, make sure they're dovetail for cutting dovetails in the western sense - a lot of chisels, including some expensive ones, are more like the first ones derek has pictured.

[george wilson]

Chisels 1/8" thick would be paring chisels. Firmer chisels are "firmer",or thicker.

Pam,I hardly call the small bit of hammering I did to make the fishtails 'blacksmithing." It wasn't hard,dirty,nor did I even have an anvil. I think I had a 2" square piece of mild steel 4" long back then. At that time my tiny shop was about 6' X 10'. I had about 20" to walk in between the lathe and my smallish workbench. I got into toolmaking,and made some flintlock pistols because they were SMALL projects. Also,I was working in public,and was getting tired of making and talking about instruments 8 hours a day. Plus,I needed authentic tools.

[Noah Barfield]

Derek,

I teach 9th and 12th grade English near Seattle. Currently I'm in my 12th year of teaching--it's still fun, but woodworking is providing a great distraction.

I definitely understand the point about saving money in the long run. As someone who tends to switch hobbies a fair amount, though, I want to make sure I stay with this before investing serious $$$.

What I should probably do is take some classes. That will give me a better feel for what I want to do and what tools I'll need to do it.

Noah

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Pam, if you have any Tasai chisels from sets you regret buying in the past, I run a chisel buyer's remorse program where you can send them postage due, no questions asked. Our expert technicians specialize in caring for Western chisels but could make an exception in your case.

I don't have enough Tasai stuff to regret buying any of it, love every bit of it.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Pam,I hardly call the small bit of hammering I did to make the fishtails 'blacksmithing." It wasn't hard,dirty,nor did I even have an anvil. I think I had a 2" square piece of mild steel 4" long back then. At that time my tiny shop was about 6' X 10'. I had about 20" to walk in between the lathe and my smallish workbench. I got into toolmaking,and made some flintlock pistols because they were SMALL projects. Also,I was working in public,and was getting tired of making and talking about instruments 8 hours a day. Plus,I needed authentic tools.

Part of my reluctance is concern that if I accidentally dropped the torch the whole 12X10 shop would go up in flames along with everything in it. And then there's pounding hot metal and sparks flying, etc. Once I get a good space set up outside for this kind of stuff, it will be different. I love your chisels.

Pam

[David Weaver]

No worries on the torch. If you managed to knock the end off, the can wouldn't release anything.

I dropped a mapp torch off a shelf (or knocked it off) all the way down to a concrete floor - full flight unimpeded and all it did was dent.

It's nice to have that stuff (even if it's just a torch and a small machinist vise and hacksaw to cut and heat treat small bits).

I figure if I ever want to make a fishtail chisel, I already have 1/8th 01 scrap from making irons and it's basically free to make one if the need arises.

[george wilson]

There are absolutely NO sparks flying when you are forging steel at red or orange heat. Sparks fly when the metal is white hot,which is about 900º hotter than you can get it with a Mapp gas torch.

I would certainly never forge steel when you have a lot of fine shavings on the floor,in case you drop the red hot steel on it.

Do not be afraid of sparks,though. You won't have any at the forging temperatures you get with a Mapp gas torch. I had no idea someone would think there would be splashes of sparks flying,as forging small tools is so common to me. I"d better be more descriptive from now on,except that people tend to not read too long descriptions.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Thanks, David and George, I didn't realize Mapp wouldn't get so hot as a forge. How do you get the cylinders refilled?

George, any chance you've documented the chisel making process somewhere I could peruse?

Pam

[george wilson]

You just buy new cylinders at any hardware store. They are the same size as regular old propane cylinders. I recommend you spend a few dollars and also get the push button piezo automatic torch lighting head. About $35.00,IIRC. They will save you money,since you just let the torch go out while getting ready for another heating operation,instead of letting it just sit there burning away. Push the button,presto,torch is burning again.

The Mapp gas gets plenty hot. The thing is,the flame isn't BIG enough to heat metal up to white hot.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Thanks, George. It is kind of irritating to keep rebuying the cylinder; but I suppose it's the most economical way to handle small volumes. I'd already picked out a piezo torch; but they're supposed to be a finger free operation, and yet you say they automatically go out?

And thanks for a refined understanding about MAPP and heat.

Pam

[Trey Palmer]

I bought a Narex set in 6, 12, 20 and 26. Not knowing what I needed, it seemed like a good way to go for under $30.

I'm considering buying a LN or other high-quality 3/8 because this is a useful seeming size that I don't have, and to give myself a
benchmark for expectations.

[Noah Barfield]

Thanks Trey. I'm thinking that the Narex set looks like a good deal.

Noah

[David Weaver]

Pam, I think they're about 7 bucks. It's hard to get into bigger bottles without incurring a lot of extra costs.

I have probably hardened 15 tools on the first tank of mapp that I have, and used it on a few other things. About the most I can do with it is something an inch wide, and only localized heating - as george says, not a big enough flame to do much more than that. Next step up is a propane plumber's or weed torch if you want to do bigger irons, or if you can juggle like george, you can use two mapp torches.

But if you're forging small detail tools, one will be fine. They are really handy little torches to have and a lot more pop than a small propane torch.

[george wilson]

I use some fire bricks arranged to make a corner for getting a lot more concentrated heat on something like a plane iron. These days I have a gas Whisper Daddy furnace,and a 23" deep electric furnace. Back in the 70's,I could manage to get a couple of inches of a 2" wide plane iron up to orange to harden it. 2 torches will do more,of course,but for making small chisels 1 is plenty. It isn't necessary,or desirable to harden more than the cutting end of a chisel made from 1/4" square W1. It could snap off,but doubtful if anyone would ever be that hard on a fishtail chisel.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Thanks again, I've got my marching orders. You guys are great.

Pam

[Trey Palmer]

I have the Narex Chisels from Highland. I have 5 sizes of the bench chisels, I ordered the 4 pc set plus a 10mm (because the tool list for a class I was about to take required that size). I also ordered the 3 pc mortise chisel set. Total damage about 75 plus shipping.

The handles are similar on the Narex Highland Mortise vs Narex Highland Bench except that they are oriented differently to the blade and the mortise chisel handle is longer and thicker. Both handles have flattened spots to keep them from rolling as well as a shape where you would hold your hand. On the Bench chisel these are on the same plane as the cutting edge. On the Mortise chisel they are perpendicular to the cutting edge. (See Photos)
188533188534

On the subject of the Narex mortise chisels:

I went to Highland Hardware a couple of weeks ago intending to buy the three-piece set.

They had a handwritten sale sign in the store, 5 mortise chisels for $49.99. I bought that instead. The sizes are 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12mm.

I don't really need 5 mortise choppers, but since the 3-piece set is $40 I got two extra chisels for $5 and couldn't pass it up.

I don't know if the deal is available mail order, or even if it was just a one-week thing, but if anyone is interested it couldn't hurt to call and ask.

[Noah Barfield]

Thank you to everyone who shared your time, advice, and knowledge. Although the thread got off track, I certainly learned a lot about Japanese chisels!

I would up taking the "buy several different types" advice. So far, I have a couple of Swedish beveled chisels ($8 each at an antique store), a 1" Keen Kutter from Brass City Records (I'm making a new handle for it and having fun), an old Craftsman chisel I picked out of the $1 barrel at my local used tool shop, and a couple of Ashley Iles bench chisels off of e-bay ($15 each). Some day I'd like to add a Japanese chisel to the collection.

Right now, I'm practicing my sharpening skills with the Craftsman and am looking forward to putting all of them to use in the upcoming months.

Noah

[Noah Barfield]

My two Ashley Iles chisels arrived yesterday. All I can say is wow. There is a huge difference in how they feel, look, perform, etc. from the other chisels I've purchased. These are definitely quality tools.