What do you think? A niche business for this woodworker?

[John Gregory]

I think lots of hobbist woodworkers would love to find some kind of a niche business to help pay for our addiction...er...hobby. Here is something that I found on a local ad site.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=14567537&cat=226&lpid=3&search=

I think the work bench is over priced. What do you guys and gals think?
I admire the guy for trying to generate some income from his hobby. I hope he is successful.

[Jerome Hanby]

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't pay $600 for it. But then, I'm pretty particular about what I want in a bench. On the flip side if someone gave me those specs and said build me a workbench, how much will you charge, then I think charging them $600 would be on the cheap side. Probably $200 worth of material, so $400 for my time seems like a bargain.

Thing that would bother me about that bench would be mounting vises...

[John Gregory]

Yeah Jerome, I think it is more of a mechanics work bench than one for a wood worker. Or general purpose.

[Matt Day]

I think you need a more descriptive thread title :) j/k

I saw that ad too John and raised my eyebrows when I saw the price; nice little bench but not at $600. Maybe he's trying to get someone to bite at $400 to have some wiggle room - who knows. I hope the guy does well too, but I'm not sure if there's a market for what he's selling. Joe Homeowner has a lot better options at Sears, Harbor Freight, and the big box stores, a woodworker is going to want to build that himself for the cost of material or invest in something better, and a mechanic would probably buy something different.

[David Prince]

One advantage of a DIY hobbiest is that they can put together their own workbench and it doesn't have to be pretty, just functional. And...it is good practice.

Considering the particular materials used in the workbench advertised I would think it was a bit overpriced.

[John Gregory]

I agree Matt. I just couldn't think of one at the time. I have changed it now.
Thanks



I think you need a more descriptive thread title :) j/k

I saw that ad too John and raised my eyebrows when I saw the price; nice little bench but not at $600. Maybe he's trying to get someone to bite at $400 to have some wiggle room - who knows. I hope the guy does well too, but I'm not sure if there's a market for what he's selling. Joe Homeowner has a lot better options at Sears, Harbor Freight, and the big box stores, a woodworker is going to want to build that himself for the cost of material or invest in something better, and a mechanic would probably buy something different.

[johnny means]

Yeah, way over priced:rolleyes: Come on people $600 barely gets you two boxes with doors from IKEA. I just saw a thread on this very forum were wer some guy filled his shop with those plastic Borg work benches which cost a couple of hundred a piece. Plastic!How many guys on this forum have $400 router tables, a box of light gauge angle that they have to assemble themselves. It's disappointing to hear these opinions on a forum that so loudly proclaims the value of American workers then derides the cheapening of goods due to race the bottom pricing. Nothing irks me more than hearing people itemize the value of someones craftsmanship based on the suspected cost of raw materials.

Let me leave before my rant gets ugly:mad:

[Jim Rimmer]

Let me leave before my rant gets ugly:mad:

Too late. :eek:

[Myk Rian]

There will be people that will buy it.
All too often I see the responses from people, "I don't have time to build a top for my router table", or "I'd rather buy a simple toolbox than make one".
Some people have more money than inclination.

[David Prince]

Yeah, way over priced:rolleyes: Come on people $600 barely gets you two boxes with doors from IKEA. I just saw a thread on this very forum were wer some guy filled his shop with those plastic Borg work benches which cost a couple of hundred a piece. Plastic!How many guys on this forum have $400 router tables, a box of light gauge angle that they have to assemble themselves. It's disappointing to hear these opinions on a forum that so loudly proclaims the value of American workers then derides the cheapening of goods due to race the bottom pricing. Nothing irks me more than hearing people itemize the value of someones craftsmanship based on the suspected cost of raw materials.

Let me leave before my rant gets ugly:mad:

This isn't exactly heirloom quality we are talking about here. I would say $400 - $450 sounds appropriate. It isn't bad, but it isn't great either! The guy could still make a few bucks profit without getting greedy.

[Jim Finn]

I think lots of hobbist woodworkers would love to find some kind of a niche business to help pay for our addiction...er...hobby. Here is something that I found on a local ad site.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=14567537&cat=226&lpid=3&search=

I think the work bench is over priced. What do you guys and gals think?
I admire the guy for trying to generate some income from his hobby. I hope he is successful.
//////////////////I think that making something that is not VERY unique will be hard to sell. Workbenches can be bought at Sears etc. I never make anything that looks like it could have been bought at Walmart for instance. Like shelves or bookcases. I fund my addiction to sawdust by making and selling toys and small jewelery boxes with images inlayed into the lids. Things that Walmart does not offer.
Works well for me.

[johnny means]

This isn't exactly heirloom quality we are talking about here. I would say $400 - $450 sounds appropriate. It isn't bad, but it isn't great either! The guy could still make a few bucks profit without getting greedy.


I don't see where making $400 for 16-20 hours of work is getting greedy. I guarantee there is not a garage in my city that would spend an entire day on my car for $400. My HVAC guy would eat that up before lunch. But the lowly woodworker he should toil away for crumbs.:confused:

Sure it isn't heirloom quality, but did you look at it? It's a fine utility piece. Plywood cabinets, solid doors and drawer fronts as well as legs. The MDF top veneered in bamboo flooring is an excellent choice for a work surface. Sure it's not a pretty Euro or Shaker bench but it certainly is not throw away junk either.

If that piece was built using mahogany veneered MDF it would be a $4000 executive desk. Trust me I've sold a few.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure that if I tried to have an employee replicate this at $14.50 an hour, with the cost of materials, it would end up costing me more than $600.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I don't see where making $400 for 16-20 hours of work is getting greedy. I guarantee there is not a garage in my city that would spend an entire day on my car for $400. My HVAC guy would eat that up before lunch. But the lowly woodworker he should toil away for crumbs.:confused:


I generally agree with you that $600 is pretty fair. That said, the thing about capitalism is that you aren't entitled to be fairly compensated - if you don't think people are willing to pay a fair price for your wood work, you should become a mechanic or an HVAC guy :) It's no fair complaining about being a "lowly woodworker" if that's the path you've chosen.

[johnny means]

I generally agree with you that $600 is pretty fair. That said, the thing about capitalism is that you aren't entitled to be fairly compensated - if you don't think people are willing to pay a fair price for your wood work, you should become a mechanic or an HVAC guy :) It's no fair complaining about being a "lowly woodworker" if that's the path you've chosen.

Touche'.:)

Actually, my issue is with the implication that this chap is being "greedy" and that his pricing is somehow way out of touch the work he's done. Thus the implication that WWing in general is something that doesn't deserve a fair days wage.

[Dave MacArthur]

I'm 100% with Johny Means on this one, can't believe someone is seriously debating a fellow charging $600 for that. Free enterprise man, you charge what the market will bear. If you start with a price that is too low, you may go out of business giving away your labor before you have a chance to begin upping the price to see what the market will bear. And you NEVER estimate your market for ready-made goods pricing by asking the cheapest skin-flint DIY "I can make anything" pioneer-boy ready-for-nuclear-winter wood-worker whether he'd pay someone X amount for the product, lol.

It should be abundantly clear from one walk through Home Depot or Lowes that in fact the 99% market is for guys who buy cabinets/furniture/counter-tops ready-made. Good on him.

[Larry Edgerton]

Yeah, way over priced:rolleyes: Come on people $600 barely gets you two boxes with doors from IKEA. I just saw a thread on this very forum were wer some guy filled his shop with those plastic Borg work benches which cost a couple of hundred a piece. Plastic!How many guys on this forum have $400 router tables, a box of light gauge angle that they have to assemble themselves. It's disappointing to hear these opinions on a forum that so loudly proclaims the value of American workers then derides the cheapening of goods due to race the bottom pricing. Nothing irks me more than hearing people itemize the value of someones craftsmanship based on the suspected cost of raw materials.

Let me leave before my rant gets ugly:mad:

I'm with ya buddy.......

[Richard Wolf]

It's what I say to at least one customer a week, "It's always more than you want to spend, and less than I want to make."

[John Gregory]

I appreciate your comments. It is always interesting to find out what others think about a subject. I think it is over price NOT because the guy is greedy, but because I doubt the market will support that price. It might have in 2007 when the economy was raging, people were buying very nice homes with reckless abandon. I think if you factored in his cost, capital investment for tools and his time, his profit would be OK, not fantastic, just OK. I admire the man for trying to find a niche market.
Woodworking for me is a hobby. I have done work for others that I have seen a profit, meager profit. My wife and I work together in this hobby, I am pretty anal about our work and my wife is way more anal than I am. We spend so many hours on any project, trying to achieve perfection, we could NEVER earn a living doing this. For someone to make good money in woodworking, my opinion, the product needs to be highly custom or very unique. Today it seems very few people are willing to pay a premium for quality woodworking.

[Tom Walz]

A basic law of economics: A thing is worth what someone will pay for it.

It is often seems to me that a great number of woodworkers try to sell on price when the customer really doesn't know what things cost.

[Andrew Joiner]

That's a tough sell. Selling woodwork to woodworkers. Many of us see products in the marketplace and say" I can make that better and cheaper myself". Even if we can't really make it better or cheaper we gotta try to find out,so we don't buy the product. I'd find another niche.

[Link Van Cleave]

Hi all. I must say I am amazed by the reposes especially coming from woodworkers who know how long it takes to do something. I am a pro. There is no way I could make that for $600 and make any money. In fact I would lose money on that. I am a fully equipped one man shop. I pay my own health insurance, shop rent, power, tooling and supplies, etc. Materials for that bench have to be close to $200. I would estimate 20 hrs. for that job including driving to the yard to buy materials. I can't run my shop for $20 per hr. You are comparing his price with Ikea. There is not a domestic cabinet maker anywhere who can compete with Ikea $ wise. I would challenge anyone who thinks this is overpriced to make one. Keep a honest record of your time, materials, Including glue and screws and then tell me he is overpriced. I am not meaning to put anyone here down but come on. It seems like folks are being a bit cavil. BTW it looks like a nice little bench. I think he needs a stretcher to connect the two drawer units.
L.

[Jim Rimmer]

A basic law of economics: A thing is worth what someone will pay for it.

That's kind of the crux of the issue. Like when I watch Antiques Roadshow and they say something is worth $XXX (granted, they have an experience base for the estimate) but it's only worth that when someone is willing to cough up the cash. I've seen things on there that i would gladly pay their estimate for but others (and now we get into taste or wants) seem way overpriced to me. As for the cabinet in question, it's not a matter of what price he has on it; it's a matter of someone buying it for that price.

[scott spencer]

Not worth $600 to me either...

[Greg Portland]

Premium garage systems (Gladiator, etc.) charge $600 for a maple top + thick steel legs + a power strip. This guy is giving you a hardwood top + two stacks of drawers @ a slightly lower quality level (IMO @ a reasonable price). He should devise a $499 model or price it in parts (top = $125, legs = $75, drawers instead of legs = $200, etc.).

[David Weaver]

Not worth $600 to me either...

Neither is it to me.

I think the word craftsmanship has been used a little too liberally in this case.

I also think that some folks are getting needlessly offended because they're applying the criticism of a plain ply and MDF bench to troubles they may have had getting folks to see value in their own work.

it's not about the number of hours that it would take to make the bench. Something can still be overpriced and not worth the time for anyone to make it professionally. I think something like this falls into that category.

But as Tom W says, the market is made when the transaction occurs, not based on my opinion or the opinion of someone who may pay more than the guy is asking.

[Brian Kent]

Could someone please show me a link to a heftier bench with cabinets and drawers for a lower price. I am having troubles finding one.

[John Lifer]

I remember about 10 yrs ago, meeting a guy who was turning out simple shelves. You've all seen them, about 4-6" width by 3 or four ft long. Cheap pine/fir or what have you.

Guy was selling for maybe $2 over material cost. Was making a killing, couldn't keep up, But going broke with every one he made. Is this overpriced, not if someone will buy it, better to start high and go lower than start too low and be broke!

[Peter Kuhlman]

I totally agree with Greg Portland. He needs to offer it in a basic no cabinets version and then option it out. The casters look way to small to be practical for the load or a rough floor. He also should show and sell it with some simple easy type finish like wipe on oil for initial appearance. I am just a hobbiest so don't really know the cost to make. If anything, I feel the price is to low for the time needed.

[Jim Finn]

I remember about 10 yrs ago, meeting a guy who was turning out simple shelves. You've all seen them, about 4-6" width by 3 or four ft long. Cheap pine/fir or what have you.

Guy was selling for maybe $2 over material cost. Was making a killing, couldn't keep up, But going broke with every one he made. Is this overpriced, not if someone will buy it, better to start high and go lower than start too low and be broke!////////////Some folks, like me, have a free or almost free source for materials. I have some toys that I make $20+ per hour making even when I sell them at a cheap price. I sell a lot of them but I can make them with free materials a lot faster than I can sell them. Making many crafty items is a bit easier and quicker than selling them is.

[Chip Lindley]

A basic law of economics: A thing is worth what someone will pay for it.

It is often seems to me that a great number of woodworkers try to sell on price when the customer really doesn't know what things cost.

The builder of the yellow pine workbench won't be selling it to another woodworker. Not for $600! But, he only needs to attract one buyer on Kazaa or CL, or at a local craft fair who really NEEDS that workbench.

Any one-of-a-kind piece is time consuming to create. If the guy were to cut out pieces for 10 of the workbenches, he could probably make a profit at $400 each. Henry Ford taught us all about the efficiencies of mass production.

But, there must be buyers in line even for 10 workbenches at $400 each. Those buyers won't be woodworkers. The buyers will be spouses or supportive in-laws who want to endow their woodworking family member with a workbench like this. Those buyers have not a clue (as Harry Woodworker does) that the workbench is only yellow pine, and palls in comparison with European beech workbenches complete with two vises! The benevolent family member simply saw the bench on display, OR advertised somewhere. Their purchase is an impulse purchase; spur of the moment. Not, a purchase involving research and deep consideration. That is how over-priced, under-made wares are sold; to impulse buyers!

over 15 years ago at Branson Missouri's Silver Dollar City, I looked through a craft shop among all the red cedar trivets and plaques, and hillybilly memorabilia to find a solid walnut blanket chest. The chest had an arched top, nicely belt-sanded to a smooth curve. But it had air-nailed butt joints all around. Not a dovetail, one! It was totally walnut inside--no cedar lining, no shelves, no nothing! Price tag was $500 in '90's dollars. That would be a lot more today. I wonder if that walnut chest is still there, and what the price is today? Or, did some city-dweller take home a piece of real Ozark furniture?

[Jim Rimmer]

Could someone please show me a link to a heftier bench with cabinets and drawers for a lower price. I am having troubles finding one.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005401/15505/Sjobergs-Nordic-Plus-1450-Workbench.aspx

[Rich Engelhardt]

I think the work bench is over priced. What do you guys and gals think?

I'd never pay $600.00 for the bench.
I might pay $6.00 for the plans though...as I'm sure quite a few others would.

Might just be he's trying to see the wrong product.


Re: The Rockler bench above. That ones says it weighs in @ 66 pounds. While it's a nice looking bench, it's probably not as hefty as the one the OP linked to.

[Carl Beckett]

Dont confuse COST and PRICE

The two have NOTHING to do with each other (now of COURSE there is a direct relationship between COST, PRICE, and PROFIT). But cost and price have nothing to do with each other.

This post has it right:

A basic law of economics: A thing is worth what someone will pay for it. (This is PRICING)

It is often seems to me that a great number of woodworkers try to sell on price when the customer really doesn't know what things cost. (This confuses the issue by trying to correlate PRICE to COST)

The goal of PRICE is to generate as much revenue as the market will bear. It really doesnt matter how much the thing costs, or whether you can profit from it. If you cant get anyone to pay that price, then you wont sell any (and there is a term called price elasticity that has to do with how many more you could sell if you lowered price, or how many fewer if you raised price)

Then COST - you want to minimize the cost to make the product. It has to meet specification. But it doesnt matter if you are making a lot of 'profit' or negative profit, you want to minimize cost. (thus, maximizing potential profit)

Of course someone has to put the two together at some point to determine if there is a BUSINESS proposition. If no PROFIT, its bad business. But keep the evaluations of cost and price separate from each other, and you will have a more clear understanding the business potential.

[Larry Edgerton]

If you read the add, it says absolutely nothing about being a woodworking bench. Its a work bench, you guys added the woodworking bit. Not everyone out there is a woodworker, just on here. I doubt he really expects to sell any to other woodworkers.

It seems to be split right down the line of hobbiests/Pros. The hobbiests think it is too expensive, and the pros know it is not.

If you want to see what can be done with marketing, check out California Closets. Stop looking at it from the standpoint of a woodworker, and look at it form the standpoint of say, a guy that likes to tinker with a 49 TD on weekends.

I think the guy has something. I think his price on that piece is too low to make a profit, but he has created a lead in to a custom garage setup that is where he probably wants to go, and then his costs are not comparable to anything in the box stores. Good lead in in my opinion.

[Caspar Hauser]

As Mr Edgerton points out, the ad describes it as a garage bench.

He should paint it a primary colour, fit better castors and bump the price.

Good luck to the bloke, I hope he does well.

[Chris Fournier]

Pricing aside I don't think that this bench has much application in any field unless you're looking for exercise - you'll be chasing that thing on wheels all over the place! This is a heavy duty trolley, not a work bench.

I think that much of the $$$ squabble has to do with the fact that $600 is not an inconsiderable sum of money but the product looks very home grown and unfinished. If the builder had taken the time to paint the base and refine a few details I think that few out there would lambast him for the price. I really think that the product has very little market, for $600 even the most uninitiated weekend warrior is gonna try to build his own and will do an okay job.

[Chip Lindley]

If you read the add, it says absolutely nothing about being a woodworking bench...

If you want to see what can be done with marketing, check out California Closets. Stop looking at it from the standpoint of a woodworker, and look at it form the standpoint of say, a guy that likes to tinker with a 49 TD on weekends...



As Mr Edgerton points out, the ad describes it as a garage bench.

Not a "woodworking bench". Ok. But, my garage IS my woodworking shop! Surely you can see how I became confused?? ;-)

Add "peer pressure" to my comment about "impulse buying" as a strong motivation to sell high-priced, under-made "stuff". Marketing has done it's job well when an all-consuming "need" now exists where none did before. Strong demand raises the price beyond reason. Two years later, the same "stuff" is in a "garage sale" to make room for more NEW "stuff".

[David Larsen]

I am not against a guy making a buck and / or being compensated for his time. I guess my issue with $600 for this bench is that I don't think it is worth it. $600 for a garage workbench isn't out of the question. I am not impressed by the bench I guess. I don't mean to criticize, but it looks like someone's high school shop project.

[Jeff Mackay]

One way to look at this question might be to ask: "what about the competition?" In a quick Google search, I found at least a half dozen samples that are available commercially. Most have steel bases, some have storage space, some don't. Most have a hardwood work surface. None are exactly like the one in the ad, but I'd say $600 is at the high end of the ballpark. Unfortunately, the competition is already available through commercial channels, and the finish-level on the competition looks better (in my opinion) than the sample in the ad.

The second question is: "who is the target market?" If the target market is Joe Six-Pack (or his wife), do they buy new products through classified ads? Or do they buy them from the borg? I'm pretty sure it's more the latter than the former.

To sum it up, I think the seller will need to make some improvements in the product to sell many. But I think the biggest problem will be marketing and distribution: how will he find the buyers? how will he get the product to the buyers?

Jeff

[johnny means]

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005401/15505/Sjobergs-Nordic-Plus-1450-Workbench.aspx

Have you actually seen this thing? I have and can tell you I have saw horses that outweigh this thing. It's comparable to the my kids work bench from Tonka that he built when he was 4 .