creative end cut on 2x4 for lap joint

[david babcock]

how to cut this corner lap joint on 2x4s ?
Its embarrassing to even ask this to a group that probably think this is Lincoln log childs play.

I guess the "proper" thing to do is get a nice Dado blade set- but lets say that I want to get a little more creative. How does one make this top cut without standing an 8ft pressure treated 2x4 on its end?

Im trying to think outside the box- is there some jig or adjustment this rookie can make to keep from having the blade cuts run/extend/drag past the cut out area on the 2x4 ?

The wife wants some raised bed box gardens. But Im trying to think of a creative joint that would be simple, strong and easy to replicate on a hundred boards.

LIke this:187873
187874

[joe milana]

hand saw.....

[Neil Brooks]

Router table.
Straight bit.
Collet extension.

?

[Tim Sproul]

The power tool way would be a bandsaw. Miter gauge or similar for the crosscut and rip fence for the rip cut.

[david babcock]

hand saw.....

Lets say that my muscles are even smaller than my brain.
Handsaw on 50 boards?
Joe what kind of buff guy do you take me for ;)

[Tim Sproul]

If your bandsaw is lacking (completely or is an itty bitty thing), you could easily build some jigs to guide a jigsaw too.

[david babcock]

Router table.
Straight bit.
Collet extension.

?
Ok here is a pretty interesting idea! (whats a collet extentsion?- to make the bur / bit taller?) I have a router and table but its a small little thing- seems like this would make a terrrible mess too!

[Neil Brooks]

Ayup.

A collet extension looks like this:

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/graphics3/routcollpg95_big.jpg

You'll almost surely need to do it in several passes, but ... you run EACH board at one depth, then adjust the height, run them all again, and repeat, until done.

A "terrible" mess ?

That doesn't sound like a very woodworker-ish thing to say. I would tend to think of it as a hugely IMPRESSIVE mess !

My router table has pretty good dust collection, so ... if yours doesn't ... it's the kind of thing you do outside, and the chips (I was going to say "fall where they may," but) become bedding for the garden.

It WOULD be a pretty quick way to do it, and ... you could be darned accurate, if you wanted to be, without much fuss.

Incidentally, a collet extension wouldn't be necessary, if you simply lay the boards down on the 3-1/2" wide side, but ... they'd be 90* to the bit and fence, unless you wanted to keep re-positioning the fence, too.

Either way ... not a TON of work.

Saw IS a pretty easy way to do it ;) I just ... don't do enough hand tool work, is all :)

[Neil Brooks]

The power tool way would be a bandsaw. Miter gauge or similar for the crosscut and rip fence for the rip cut.

Ayup. That'd work quite well, too !

So would a jigsaw.

And ... in hand tools ... pretty short work for a sharp chisel, too !

[Bill Huber]

The image is of a 2x6, if you are going to use 2x4s you could do it really easy with a circular saw. Clamp a bunch together and and make all the cuts at one time.
But if you are using the 2x6 then I would go with a band saw or a good jig saw with a good blade in it.

The holes to lock them all together I guess would be nice to use a drill press with some stops or a hand drill with a jig to get them all the same.

[Paul M Miller]

Do you have a Radial Arm Saw? One cut with the blade vertical and one cut with the blade horizontal.

[Myk Rian]

An ax or camping saw would give it a rustic look.
:)

[Anthony Whitesell]

That's nice of them to give the wrenches too. I bought a bowl making kit from PeaachTree which included the collet extension but no wrenches. I was able to find some used stamped wrenches that were almost the right size that I finessed on the grinder to make them the right size. I think I needed 26 and 30mm of which the standard wrenches are about 12" long.

[Mike Heidrick]

I have this one and it seems nice. Super quick to change bits with.

Router Technologies EX 2080 Xtreme Xtension Professional Router Bit/Collet Extension

[Troy Turner]

If your bandsaw is lacking (completely or is an itty bitty thing), you could easily build some jigs to guide a jigsaw too.

+1 here. Neither will cut past your line. I'd say you could make a jig for either using a piece of 2x2 ply or mdf. Just measure the distance you need (taking into account the shoe size on the jigsaw), notch out the board, then you could either clamp it to the bandsaw or the boards hanging off the edge of a bench if you're using the jigsaw.

[Derek Gilmer]

A reciprocating saw would make it pretty easy as well. Get an aggressive wood cutting blade, lay them on saw horses and go to town.

[Rod Sheridan]

As Bill indicated, clamp a bunch of pieces together, clamp a straight edge on the group and use a circular saw.

Easy and accurate............Rod.

[Joe Angrisani]

David.... I would add that no matter how you cut the boards, be sure to tie them together along their lengths as well. If you don't, time and moisture will move 2x4s or 2x6s more than you can imagine and will open up the sides. I drilled vertical holes to accept some old giant nails to work as dowel pins. I suppose you could use biscuits and waterproof glue, too.

You might consider ditching the pressure treated stuff as well. I wouldn't want the chemicals leaching into my 'maters and lettuce, and if you think pressure treated wood is permanent when underground, you've been duped. It'll start rotting away in a few years. I'd suggest regular old contruction lumber and heavy plastic lining the inside to keep the carpenter ants from loving the home you built for them (the plastic helps with evaporation, too, as raised beds dry out much faster than a "flush" garden).

Finally, consider 4x4s instead of 2x4s/2x6s. It's nice to sit on the edge while taking care of the garden. I use 4x4s and just alternate the joints from course to course (making, in effect, a finger joint). That way it's all 90-degree full cuts.

[Mike OMelia]

Those are not 2x4s. But that design is quite popular... seeing them offered for sale in lots of places. You should be able to whip them together with hand tools. And save a few $$. Why not use treated lumber? Won't these rot quickly? Perhaps a chemical hazard? Maybe linseed oil? Not sure if that is "toxic". But surely the surfaces should be treated with something. Like Joe said, secure the lenght seams with dowels and glue.

Mike

[Joe Angrisani]

......Why not use treated lumber?.....Perhaps a chemical hazard?.....

Would you make a salad bowl out of pressure treated lumber?

On my raised beds I've always gone about 3 courses high with 4x4s. I use regular cedar 4x4s from the Borg. It's all about drainage, I think, as far as rot goes. It's like fence posts. The secret to long lasting fenceposts is not pressure treated wood. It's handling drainage properly by putting a good bit of gravel under the post so you don't make a "concrete cup" that holds the fencepost and the water.

Think the same way with the garden. You should dig down INSIDE the garden once it's built. Dig down about 12", and mix that in with lots of peat moss and lots of quality compost to fill the raised bed. Since you never walk IN the raised bed, it will have great drainage to 12" underground. As a result, right around the garden (under the frame), water will run off to the easy route inside the raised bed.

I'd suggest laying out the garden pathways with about 2" of pea gravel before you start building. Build the raised beds with 4x4s sitting on gravel. When it is all done and solid, dig down 12" inside. You'll lose a little pea gravel, but for the most part you'll be left with a layer under the 4x4s. Then line the inside walls of the raised bed with heavy plastic that goes from the bottom of the hole and comes up to 1" from the top.

I had 15 year old raised beds built this way at my old house. I made the first one without the plastic, and the ants consumed it in 4 years (and gardening was no joy for the two years before that when THEY were there in great numbers). The plastic ended the ant problem, saved water, and it doesn't rot because it's buried and hiding from Sol's UV rays.

[David Weaver]

hand saw.....

Yeah, hand saw.

If you want to make it as easy as possible and you're not much of a sawyer, just get one of the $35 japanese ryobas in the 240 or 270mm size. They'll have a crosscut and rip side, and work intuitively and be very sharp. Just mark your line and cut it.

If you have a band saw, that'd be my second choice, but the bigger the boards, the more i'd prefer moving the tool and not the board.

[Prashun Patel]

The easiest is to use two 2x4's with staggered ends to make the rabbet. Instead of 3 courses of 2x8's, you use 6 courses of 2x4's. No fancy cutting besides squared crosscuts with a circ-saw. Sorry if the pic is small

[Harry Hagan]

"But Im trying to think of a creative joint that would be simple, strong and easy to replicate on a hundred boards."
1. Line your boards up side-by-side and use one of them to keep the ends even and also support the router when you clean up the joint.
2. Cut kerfs with a circular saw just shy of the exact depth you desire.
3. Remove the "waste" material with a hammer and chisel.
4. Use a router fitted with a plate and straight bit to span the joint and trim to your desired depth.

[Neil Brooks]

An ax or camping saw would give it a rustic look.
:)

And along those lines ... a neighbor with a pronounced overbite SHOULD be able to just GNAW their way to a nice half-lap.

[johnny means]

IMO the easiest way to do this is with a Jap saw. A good hand saw will cut t4 of those joints in a couple of minutes. Unlike using a stationary machine you won't need to move the board around. Also that type of material tends to be imperfect to say the least, cutting by hand allows for on the fly adjustment. Try one out, I think you would be surprised at how easy that stuff cuts with a good hand saw.

[david babcock]

If your bandsaw is lacking (completely or is an itty bitty thing), you could easily build some jigs to guide a jigsaw too.


This could well be the neatest website in the universe. Im amazed at the fantastic responses. I hardly had time to get my fathers old handsaw out when I noticed dozens of really neat ideas.
I will have to try each idea on a board or two. Good experience.

Yes, my bandsaw is a itty bitty thing, like my muscles (this limits 40 hours of chisel work on thousands of relief cuts) . Its cuts (my bandsaw) beautiful french curves in all my wood all by itself!

[Doug Shepard]

You could do this on a TS pretty easily too. Clamp a stop block to the fence and raise the blade all the way up. With 2x material the cut will only be slightly arced with the blade all the way up. Use a forstner bit to cut out the plug and all that's left is a quick bit of chisel work to clean out the corners and the slight arc in the stopped cuts.

[david babcock]

Ayup. That'd work quite well, too !

So would a jigsaw.

And ... in hand tools ... pretty short work for a sharp chisel, too !
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<LI id=post_1666709 class="postbit postbitim postcontainer">Yesterday 2:14 AM #10 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?162527-creative-end-cut-on-2x4-for-lap-joint&p=1666709#post1666709)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/image.php?u=14931&dateline=1292423619 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?14931-Bill-Huber)Bill Huber (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?14931-Bill-Huber)





The image is of a 2x6, if you are going to use 2x4s you could do it really easy with a circular saw. Clamp a bunch together and and make all the cuts at one time.
But if you are using the 2x6 then I would go with a band saw or a good jig saw with a good blade in it.

The holes to lock them all together I guess would be nice to use a drill press with some stops or a hand drill with a jig to get them all the same.



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<LI id=post_1666728 class="postbit postbitim postcontainer">Yesterday 4:44 AM #11 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?162527-creative-end-cut-on-2x4-for-lap-joint&p=1666728#post1666728)
Paul M Miller (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?22753-Paul-M-Miller)





Do you have a Radial Arm Saw? One cut with the blade vertical and one cut with the blade horizontal.





__________________________________________________ ___

You can cut 2x6 lumber with a JIG SAW? I have an old jig saw but it has problems cutting through 1" oak. i think 50 2x4 would cause it to give up the ghost.


Bill, so far, your idea seems easiest for a slow fella like myself. I could line up all the 2x4 vertically, place two straight 2x4s horizontally on either side of the stack, then clamp those to make sure everything is straight.

Paul, is a radial arm saw the same thing as a miter saw? Or is the radial a "sliding" circular saw?

Perhaps I will strike a deal with the boss: i make her gardens to order on the condition that she lets me buy a new tool. :)
WIN WIN!

[ken gibbs]

Why not ease your pain with 3" deck screws and butt joints? If you counterbore for these screws and use a good titanium bit and put two screws in each butt joint, those yard objects will out last your time on Earth. Spray the teflon screws with WD-40 and you will be amazed how easy this job becomes.

[david babcock]

David.... I would add that no matter how you cut the boards, be sure to tie them together along their lengths as well. If you don't, time and moisture will move 2x4s or 2x6s more than you can imagine and will open up the sides. I drilled vertical holes to accept some old giant nails to work as dowel pins. I suppose you could use biscuits and waterproof glue, too.

You might consider ditching the pressure treated stuff as well. I wouldn't want the chemicals leaching into my 'maters and lettuce, and if you think pressure treated wood is permanent when underground, you've been duped. It'll start rotting away in a few years. I'd suggest regular old contruction lumber and heavy plastic lining the inside to keep the carpenter ants from loving the home you built for them (the plastic helps with evaporation, too, as raised beds dry out much faster than a "flush" garden).

Finally, consider 4x4s instead of 2x4s/2x6s. It's nice to sit on the edge while taking care of the garden. I use 4x4s and just alternate the joints from course to course (making, in effect, a finger joint). That way it's all 90-degree full cuts.



DEREK / ROD,
thanks for great comments.

Joe, if i line them all up and run a carriage bolt or dowell through them, can i avoid glue? I think it would be advantageous to allow the wood to creep and move over time a little with changes of temperature and such. And i dont want to use three gallons of water proof glue.
Im going with PT lumber due to a few factors. Redwood is way too expensive. Cedar is expensive and very rough (but pretty sexy). PT lumber was not recommended in the past due to arsenic which has not been used for the past 5-10 years. The remaning chemicals have never been shown to be taken up my plant roots and extensive studies show PT lumber to be safe for gardening applications. Plastic liner works if one is still concerned.
As for the 4x4, i really do love this suggestion. The look is so much more substantial and formal- it shouts Permanent! The cost makes it tough though, so I will connect/ joint a mitered horizontal 2x4 frame over the top of the whole thing to sit on.

[david babcock]

Would you make a salad bowl out of pressure treated lumber?

On my raised beds I've always gone about 3 courses high with 4x4s. I use regular cedar 4x4s from the Borg. It's all about drainage, I think, as far as rot goes. It's like fence posts. The secret to long lasting fenceposts is not pressure treated wood. It's handling drainage properly by putting a good bit of gravel under the post so you don't make a "concrete cup" that holds the fencepost and the water.

Think the same way with the garden. You should dig down INSIDE the garden once it's built. Dig down about 12", and mix that in with lots of peat moss and lots of quality compost to fill the raised bed. Since you never walk IN the raised bed, it will have great drainage to 12" underground. As a result, right around the garden (under the frame), water will run off to the easy route inside the raised bed.

I'd suggest laying out the garden pathways with about 2" of pea gravel before you start building. Build the raised beds with 4x4s sitting on gravel. When it is all done and solid, dig down 12" inside. You'll lose a little pea gravel, but for the most part you'll be left with a layer under the 4x4s. Then line the inside walls of the raised bed with heavy plastic that goes from the bottom of the hole and comes up to 1" from the top.

I had 15 year old raised beds built this way at my old house. I made the first one without the plastic, and the ants consumed it in 4 years (and gardening was no joy for the two years before that when THEY were there in great numbers). The plastic ended the ant problem, saved water, and it doesn't rot because it's buried and hiding from Sol's UV rays.


good stuff joe! youre way ahead of me. I hadnt gotten that far yet, so I appreciate the good advice on the prep and layout. what is it about the plastic that stops the ants? seems like they would just go around.
David,
Ive always wanted one of those ryobas. before i decide to go out and buy one, is this going to be a real task to cut 50 2x4s with a hand saw?

Prashun, I was thinking qty 3 of 2x4 stacked vertically. I think with 4x4 posts in the corners this should be plenty tall and sturdy?

[Joe Angrisani]

Joe, if i line them all up and run a carriage bolt or dowell through them, can i avoid glue? I think it would be advantageous to allow the wood to creep and move over time a little with changes of temperature and such.

I would think an unglued dowel in a snug hole will work just fine. There's really no seasonal movement to speak of along the lengths. All you want to do is keep the sides from bowing out unevenly.



what is it about the plastic that stops the ants? seems like they would just go around.

The plastic keeps the interior of the wood frame from being constantly wet. Moisture plus wood equals ants in my experience. Take the moisture out of the equation and the ants move to your neighbor's garden. :)

[Prashun Patel]

David-
Personally, I've done my raised beds with 4x4's. I have no posts in the corners. I stagger the ends like I indicated below (not for looks; for stability) My courses are 3x high.

To fasten them together, I drilled vertical 3/4" holes thru the courses along the lengths and then hammered rebar stakes flush to the top into the ground. It stays together and stable fine. I don't line the inside with anything.

[Mike Schuch]

how to cut this corner lap joint on 2x4s ?
Its embarrassing to even ask this to a group that probably think this is Lincoln log childs play.

I guess the "proper" thing to do is get a nice Dado blade set- but lets say that I want to get a little more creative. How does one make this top cut without standing an 8ft pressure treated 2x4 on its end?

Im trying to think outside the box- is there some jig or adjustment this rookie can make to keep from having the blade cuts run/extend/drag past the cut out area on the 2x4 ?

The wife wants some raised bed box gardens. But Im trying to think of a creative joint that would be simple, strong and easy to replicate on a hundred boards.

LIke this:187873
187874

Don't forget to put some expanded steel sheets under the beds to keep the moles and gophers out.


Check Craigslist for some used Trex... or post a wanted... no rot... no chemicals.