Sick of Waterstones

[John-Paul Volkenant]

Now that I'm using hand tools almost exclusively, I'm getting frustrated with my waterstones. I bought waterstones originally because all the magazines said so. When using a router to cut a mortise, and then squaring up the ends with a chisel, I was happy with using waterstones. The mess and maintenance was not a big deal. Now that I'm using hand tools, again, almost exclusively, I'm finding the mess and maintenance to be a nuissance.

I'm considering oil stones. I've never used an oil stone, but they seem to be a little cleaner and they need less maintenance. Is this true? Have you switched to oil stones? Am I expecting too much from the sharpening routine? I want sharpening to be as clean and easy as possible. I've spent a lot of time learning to freehand honing. I bought a 6" bench grinder to get the hollow ground. I use my honing guides less and less.

Can you help me with this?

[Mike Davis NC]

DMT diamond plates, the solid metal ones not the plastic junk.

[Greg Wease]

Sharpening on oil stones is way too slow. Water stones break down quickly exposing new grit so they sharpen quickly--and require frequent flattening. At school we use diamond plates for coarse and fine grits and a 7000 grit water stone for honing. None of these require soaking, only spritzing with water. You could also try the scary sharp method without a lubricant.

[Pam Niedermayer]

A lot of the ceramic "waterstones" don't need all that much water, some none.

Pam

[David Weaver]

Ceramic soakless waterstones. I spend less time with my ceramic stones than anyone with oil stones spends with their stones (and the edge is definitely finer). You still have to remove the swarf from an oil stone, or it will eventually lose its cutting effectiveness.

Oil stones cut slowly, and a lot of things, they don't cut well at all. They're esoteric, unless you use all old steel and it's not too hard.

Sorry to the loyalists out there. I do have oil stones. From the medium crystalon to a huge 12x3 hard black, norton and halls. I just find them a novelty compared to the shapton pros when it comes to sharpening when you want the best edge in the least amount of time and with the least maintenance.

[john brenton]

It its just the mess then you might want to try a stone pond or something. I have an old towel that I set on top of a piece of scrap. I don't mind the mess, and I too dont care much for oil stones. I do have an old one that I keep on the bench if I need a little touch up, but rarely use it. You still need to flatten ithem regularly...not as much as the nortons, but as I side hone on it, it does dish out.

[Leigh Betsch]

I subscribe to the George Wilson / David Weaver hybrid sharpening method! :) DMT greeen diamond, Spyrco med ceramic, Spryco extra fine white, all dry or with a small spritz of water, then I go to the David Weaver 12,000 waterstone with a spritz of water, then back to the George Wilson SimiChrome on a leather strop. Of course there is the Tormek hollow grind first and no honing guide.
This is a realativly clean and mess free way to go although I have sink with hot and cold water in my shop so I wash all my stones before I quit.

[Charles McKinley]

You may be happier if you have a dedicated sharpening station where the mess is contained and easily cleaned up if yoo can't upgrade to the other stones yet.

[Frank Drew]

The first stones I used were oil stones but I'd be happy never to use another one again. To me, they're much messier and liable to foul your work than water stones (which clean up with.... water!)

[Jon van der Linden]

I'll admit I don't like my fingers turning a brownish black or sloshing stuff around since I like things to be clean. That said, waterstones are fast and effective. The more frequently you sharpen, the less time you will spend doing it and it will show in your work. If it's sharpening plane blades that is bothering you, having a few extra blades and sharpening them all at the same time is a good way to go. As others have mentioned, many of the finer grit stones don't require much if any soaking, so the "mess" should be minimal. A dedicated area is also highly recommended.

[Russell Sansom]

Shaptons! Try a couple and see if they don't change your point of view. I will second or third the individual sharpening station suggestion. Sharpening got way better for me when i saw this light. I don't want water near my bench or my shiny steel. Nor machine oil. What really made a difference was the ability to go sharpen at exactly the moment it was required.

[Johnny Kleso]

All stones make a mess pretty much..

I use oil stones and I get grit and mineral sprits all over my hands and they get black..

What you need is to control the mess..
1 Sharpening board or station
2 pump bottle of hand cleaner and paper towels
3 Box to hold all your stones and tools
4 Mount your stones on a stand made from plastic from eBay or wood designed after store bought models so if you drop a stone its safe..
5 big sheet ob buna rubber 3/32" or more thick to cover your work area and provide a non slip sufrace for sharpening..

187876

[Jim Koepke]

One more suggestion for the separate sharpening area. I have two. One on one side of the shop for the water stones and another across the shop for the oil stones.

Sometimes it is too cold in my shop to use water since it turns solid.

I got lucky at a rock show and got a couple of good hunks of novaculite. One of them has been getting all the use. It has some fast cutting areas yet in some spots it can polish a blade almost as good as my 8000 water stone.

So, I am not a real fan of oil stones, but some oil stones are a lot better than other oil stones.

If you really want to get rid of your water stones, I will be happy to send you my address.

jtk

[Johnny Kleso]

Here is the eBay catagory for plastic

Business & Industrial > Manufacturing & Metalworking > Process Equipment > Plastics Equipment & Supplies > Plastics & Rubber > Polyethylene & HDPE


http://business.shop.ebay.com/Polyethylene-HDPE-/61796/i.html?_catref=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282

Make something like this is on my TO DO LIST
187880

[dai sawyer]

OK,this is my 1st contribution to the creek,hope it throws a different slant on this subject.One thing is certain removing metal is never going to be a clean job whichever method you use,it,s the nature of the game.My method goes like this-1st with a Norton blue stone mounted on a hand crank grinder create a hollow grind,then on to a powered bench grinder with a felt wheel and blue honing paste,polish the hollow grind.Then I work on establishing the honing angle with the blade mounted in a honing guide.I begin with a
medium Dmt diamond plate followed by a fine Arkansaw oilstone and finally a very hard and dense piece of Welsh slate.I add mineral oil to the oilstone and the slate but that is wiped as soon as I've finished with paper towels and that is just about as messy as it gets.Chrome cleaner on a leather strop gives a final flourish,but do this gently so as not to lose the edge by rounding it.This gives me an edge that will polish and finish Oak knots!
Regards,Dai

[tico vogt]

I prefer to hone flat plane blades and bench chisels with micro abrasive paper using soapy water. No swarf, quick, clean, and highly polished results:

[David Weaver]

Blew the TOS right out of the water with that one.

[William Allen]

I subscribe to the George Wilson / David Weaver hybrid sharpening method! :) DMT greeen diamond, Spyrco med ceramic, Spryco extra fine white, all dry or with a small spritz of water, then I go to the David Weaver 12,000 waterstone with a spritz of water, then back to the George Wilson SimiChrome on a leather strop. Of course there is the Tormek hollow grind first and no honing guide.
This is a realativly clean and mess free way to go although I have sink with hot and cold water in my shop so I wash all my stones before I quit.

I perform a variation of this -- DMT red (if needed), DMT green, WoodRiver fine ceramic (mineral spirits for lubrication). I'll be picking up a Spyderco extra fine white. That seems to serve my purpose.

BTW I use the Veritas MK 2 sharpening jig and love it.

[Derek Cohen]

As Pam and David have noted, the Shapton ceramic waterstones require the least water - no soaking and just a spritz before use.

You can take this a step further. The Shaptons still load up when used with plain water. However, if you add a little soap to the water, not only will this keep the stones lubricated and clean, but you can use less water and it will keep your hands clean as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tristan Williams]

I invested in a full set of DMT DiaSharp 8x3" stones - the metal ones, not the plastic ones. I'm very pleased with them - mess is minimal, and they cut FAST. I think I might get a superfine ceramic and/or a strop for extreme honing at some point in the future, as the Extra Extra Fine DiaSharp is "only" 8000 grit.

[David Weaver]

i think it's about a 3 micron diamond size. Until the smarts wear off of the diamonds, it really does do a different thing to the edge than does a 3 micron size abrasive that isn't quite as harsh.

Whether or not that's noticeable, I don't know, but it's good to be aware of how the different abrasives cut. Diamond definitely cut deeper than most other abrasives, ceramic aluminas (i hope i got that right) are probably next in line in the depth of the grooves. What that amounts to is that you do not want to skip a big step and go from a diamond coarse step to a fine oil stone step - it'll take a long time to run the deep grooves out of the metal.

I wouldn't be surprised if you find that a ceramic stone that either allows mud or some loading creates a finer edge than 3 micron diamonds.

At the 1/2 micron level, I'm convinced that honing compounds leave a finer edge than diamonds, which cut like mad. At the same time, a 1/2 micron diamond edge is still really really fine. Plus, the fact that the compound may be more loosely graded (and have some finer particles) than the diamonds could also have an impact.

The trouble with all of these things, and why most people give fairly subjective responses like mine is that even if you have a microscope, you are really fighting to see what's going on at that level, even with magnification. At some point, scratches get finer than light -I don't know what that point is, but it can't be far away.

But it's my opinion that a slower cutting edge will not cut so aggressively and will leave a finer edge grit size for grit size. I know a lot of the razor guys sure prefer a wide slow cutting abrasive until the grits are really tiny tiny in fineness.

[Eddie Darby]

Go with Scary Sharp, and just toss the old sandpaper sheets away.

[Jim Barrett]

Get some Shapton stones and be done with it...use them and forget it....end of story!

Jim

[Mike Davis NC]

At some point, scratches get finer than light -I don't know what that point is, but it can't be far away.

We used optical flats to measure flatness of metal surfaces in machining school. It is around 12 millionths of an inch. One Micron = 39 millionths of an inch so 3 micron is about 10 times the interference interval of the wavelength used to measure flatness.


How to Measure Flatness with Optical Flats by Van Keuren


Introduction

The easiest and best way to test the flatness of a flat lapped or polished surface is with an optical
flat. Such surfaces are found on micrometers, measuring machines, gage blocks, snap gages, ring
seals, valve seats and precision flat lapped parts.

The surface must be sufficiently finished to reflect light; ordinary ground surfaces are too
irregular to show light wave interference bands. However, unless the material is extremely soft
or porous, a few rubs on a flat lap will smooth off the top of the grinding ridges and enable bands
to be seen in monochromatic light.

The Phenomenon of Interference Bands

When there is an extremely thin wedge between two flat surfaces a series of interference bands
or fringes appear. The bands occur at right angles to the slope of the wedge. They represent
intervals of approximately 11.57 millionths of an inch (293.8 nanometers) from the surface being
tested to the optical flat when a monochromatic light of 23.13 millionths (587.6 nm) wave length
is used.

The Van Keuren series of helium monochromatic light sources provide a highly diffused light of
this wave length. Dark bands occur because light reflections from the two surfaces which form
the wedge interfere with each other where the thickness of the wedge is one half or multiples of
one half the wave length of the light. The parallel bands thus form at zones where the wedge
thickness changes by 1/2 wave length. Between each pair of dark bands the reflections reinforce
each other and produce bright bands. When viewed perpendicularly in helium light, the dark
bends are located where the air wedge thickness changes by equal intervals of .00001157" (293.8
nm).

[Tony Zaffuto]

Now that I'm using hand tools almost exclusively, I'm getting frustrated with my waterstones. I bought waterstones originally because all the magazines said so. When using a router to cut a mortise, and then squaring up the ends with a chisel, I was happy with using waterstones. The mess and maintenance was not a big deal. Now that I'm using hand tools, again, almost exclusively, I'm finding the mess and maintenance to be a nuissance.

I'm considering oil stones. I've never used an oil stone, but they seem to be a little cleaner and they need less maintenance. Is this true? Have you switched to oil stones? Am I expecting too much from the sharpening routine? I want sharpening to be as clean and easy as possible. I've spent a lot of time learning to freehand honing. I bought a 6" bench grinder to get the hollow ground. I use my honing guides less and less.

Can you help me with this?

I'm answering without reading the answers you already got, so I don't stray! I started with an old Carborundum stone many, many years ago (35 years or better). Then a dozen years ago I started tried better stones, ranging from india (oil) to waterstones and then to "scarysharp". For the past half dozen years, I've been using oilstones and stropping for honing. If I'm removing a nick or working on a very bad blade, I start on a slow speed grinder with a Norton 3X 60 grit to hollow grind. For oilstones, I used a vintage washita and then a translucent arkansas, followed by a strop. I get blades that easily shave your arm hairs.

Now, the caveat: my blades are mainly O1, with a few A2.

Now the advice: pick a sharpening method and stay with it. A

[Mike Davis NC]

I also started with oil stones about 40 years ago. Used them until I could afford diamond plates. Then discovered scary sharp. And still use diamond plates for basic sharpening.

A full set of 3x8 DMT plates will cost close to $500. A full set of 3-M sand paper will cost less than $10. The DMT will last 30 years for the home hobbyist, maybe 5-10 for a professional who sharpens several times every day. The sandpaper could last a day or a year. Either will get a blade sharp and mirror finished in a few minutes. They will work dry or with a little water. They both stay flat. I can't see any practical advantage for a production minded wood worker to polish cutting tools beyond 2500 grit. I don't know why anyone would continue to use waterstones.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I also started with oil stones about 40 years ago. Used them until I could afford diamond plates. Then discovered scary sharp. And still use diamond plates for basic sharpening.

A full set of 3x8 DMT plates will cost close to $500. A full set of 3-M sand paper will cost less than $10. The DMT will last 30 years for the home hobbyist, maybe 5-10 for a professional who sharpens several times every day. The sandpaper could last a day or a year. Either will get a blade sharp and mirror finished in a few minutes. They will work dry or with a little water. They both stay flat. I can't see any practical advantage for a production minded wood worker to polish cutting tools beyond 2500 grit. I don't know why anyone would continue to use waterstones.

And here it starts (I agree with your statement concerning production minded woodworker). Do you want to be a woodworker or do you want to be a sharpening guru? If a woodworker, find a system you like and stick with it until it is second nature the steps you go through. If a sharpening guru, start buying all kinds of stones, a loupe or maybe a scanning electron microscope. Start experimenting with all kinds of steels so you can buy more stones and so on.

I'd love to see this question posed in FWW or PWW to a dozen of the best living woodworkers to hear their methods. Guys like Allan Breed, Garret Hack etc. Include a Mack Headley to see how he does it at Colonial Williamsburg.

[Maurice Ungaro]

It's not neander, but I got a used LV Mk II power sharpener, and have never looked back. FWIW.

[David Weaver]

Sharpening with powered tools is fair game.

I think I have four tools with plugs that I use to sharpen and grind metal things (tormek, dry grinder and two belt sanders)

I only have one tool that I use for woodworking that gets plugged in regularly (a bandsaw), well, maybe two if you count a spray setup.

I am sometimes the sharpening tinkerer type that tony refers to.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I don't know why anyone would continue to use waterstones.

There are any number of reasons. I liked your message a lot until I hit the above line.

Pam

[David Weaver]

I don't know why anyone would continue to use waterstones.

The fine edge off of a 15k pro stone, a 10k chosera or a nice suita stone (especially the nice suita, which is a pleasure to sharpen with because of the feel as well as the results) pretty much dictates why I probably will never go to all diamonds.

Just like a lot of old timers will not give up oil stones, I don't know if I could give up stones in general - they're too interesting and still, nothing has the feel of a good stone.

[Matt Radtke]

I can't see any practical advantage for a production minded wood worker to polish cutting tools beyond 2500 grit.

I'm certainly not a production working and possibly in the dictionary under hobbyist, but stopping at 2500? I don't know the "actual" grit of my oils stones, and I'm transitioning from an all oil stone setup to a DMT/Shapton hybrid, but 2500? I'd use that grit (or slightly coarser) to establish a bevel!

2500 is where I call an edge "getting sharp" and certainly not sharp. I haven't been happy with my edges with anything less than 4k and currently I take everything up to 12k (just because I haven't bought something in between my DMT fine and my shapton 12k yet).

Mike, I'm curious what you're sharpening to only 2500? Plane blades? Chisels? Both?

[David Weaver]

i'm thinking the 2500 he's talking about isn't equivalent to what shapton calls 2500, but instead something like a 2500 grit sandpaper, which would probably finish an edge not a lot different than a 5000 shapton.

You can get a pretty nice edge off of a shapton 5k and a plain leather (no honing compound) strop - one that easily shaves hair.

But I don't know why that's necessary when you can also easily just go from 1k to 15k and have an edge that's better quality in the same amount of time.

[Mike Davis NC]

There are any number of reasons. I liked your message a lot until I hit the above line.

Pam

Sorry, I didn't mean to slap anyone in the face. I just find it a waste of time. I sharpen everything up to 1200 on a DMT plate then 2500 3-M wet&dry paper then a few strokes on a smooth leather strop with 2 micron diamond paste. Most of the time I strop chisels every few minutes on the leather to keep a sharp edge. I try not to let anything get dull to the point that I have to resharpen while working. At the end of the day I sharpen everything before I put it all away. Lathe tools get a few strokes on 600 grit wet&dry that is glued to the head of the lathe. It is just a habit I got into 30 some years ago. I don't do production wood work now but I try not to waste time because I have so little time for the shop.

Waterstones take time. They are a zen religion of sharpening. If that is what you enjoy doing I can understand that. I don't have time for it and enjoy making things more than sharpening tools. So, I do what is most effective and economical for me. Sharpening is like breathing to me, I do it without thinking about it. It is a habit and a necessity, but not a labor of love.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I really have nothing to add to what's hasn't been said already. Just thanking Derek for the soap in the spray bottle idea, I will try that. Shaptons on a dedicated sharpening station and an MDF strop, can't get any faster than that. And I was a scary sharp user before, this (Shapton water stones) is so much better.

[Mike Davis NC]

So, what is different about this Shapton? Is it a waterstone or a glass plate?

[Andrew Gibson]

I just picked up some Shapton pro stones (1k, 5k, 15k) and love them, also picked up a dmt for flattening and for regrinding bevels.
I generally reestablish my primary bevel every 3rd sharpening or so... or if I go to long between sharpenings. Then I micro bevel on the 15k stone. It works very well and with a lot less mess then with the king stones. I think the biggest difference is that they stay flat longer... and I don't have to soak them.

[Matt Radtke]

So, what is different about this Shapton? Is it a waterstone or a glass plate?

Shaptons are a synthetic (ceramic?) waterstone. Their newest line is a stone-on-glass product, that lets them use less stone. With their non-glasstones (Pros), once the stone is thing enough, it will crack or crumble. The glasstones allow you to use all of the abrasive.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Shaptons are a synthetic (ceramic?) waterstone. ......With their non-glasstones (Pros), once the stone is thin enough, it will crack or crumble.

This is true of all stones. Yet you can avoid this by attaching the stone(s) to some type of base that will support it as you work through its thickness. You can cut the base to the size of the stone(s) or slightly larger if you want. I used silicone to attach mine but you can use regular epoxy or marine grade epoxy.

IIRC Derek Cohen attached his to float glass and David Weaver attached his to some ironwood. I attached mine to 1/4" thick precision ground aluminum plate.

Here is a picture of what I did.

188172

[Stuart Tierney]

Mess and maintenance is heavily dependent on which 'waterstones' you actually use, and less to do with them being 'waterstones'.

Kind of like saying all red cars are fast. Ferraris are red, but so are Priuses. My car is red, and I'm under no illusion that it's a fast car at all. (It's a Mazda 2, called the strawberry. Someone at the local variant of the DMV has a sense of humour I'm sure since they gave us the plate 15-03. Any Japanese speakers will see the joke in that one...)

There are, the last time I bothered counting, at least 10 different 'types' of waterstone, and at least 30 different product lines within those 10 types.

They range from messy/maintenance intensive to low mess/low maintenance to very messy/low maintenance to clean/high maintenance to a right PITA all round to "where have you been all my life?!?"

My two finer stones, I don't remember when I last flattened them and they've done a goodly bit of work I think. I use them on the kitchen sink, next to the clean dishes and nothing on the dishes, nothing on the sink. If I have to break out the #1000, then I've got a bit of goop, but it's kept in check and that one needs little maintenance as it is. Used judiciously, needs virtually no maintenance at all.


I think it's less a case of "I'm sick of waterstones" and more "I'm sick of the waterstones I have".

By all means, if you have the opportunity try out oil stones with your tools. If they work well enough for you, great! If not, waterstones are not all equal, and there's bound to be something out there that will fit in with what you want.

Me, I go with the low mess, low maintenance, high speed variety. Hmm, maybe if I stick oil in them, they'll be oil stones? Won't hurt the stones, and maybe there's an untapped market. Fast oil stones! :)

(No, I'm not kidding. I might give it a shot someday...)

[David Weaver]

.. you can use regular epoxy or marine grade epoxy.

David Weaver attached his to some ironwood.



Yep, pretty much any quartersawn wood would work fine, as long as it's rigid. I put six of those little clear cabinet bumpers on the bottom of mine so it would have some grip.

Glue was epoxy, but it doesn't matter much what is used as long as water doesn't hurt it. 5 minute cheapo epoxy would be fine.

About the only issue with all of the fast cutting ceramic stones is that the swarf is so much metal that your hands get all black using them....but that's not really much of a problem.

[Johnny Kleso]

Here is a seller at eBay that has some Buna (NITRILE) Rubber for a good price,,
http://shop.ebay.com/vsegda2/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686

Not a bad price for a 1'x3' no slip work surface about $25 total

Also works great for sanding..

[Chris Fournier]

Don't like a mess? Sharpening is messy. Oil stones are very messy. Even dry grinding is messy! A dedicated sharpening area is the ticket if you have the space.

Waterstones get my vote because they sharpen the same way every time you refresh them. I don't care for diamond or ceramic because they do wear and clog and you really can't refresh them the same way that you can with waterstones. I do use diamond for sharpening carbide metal cutting tools but only because I pretty much have to in this instance.

[Jeff Ranck]

Me, I go with the low mess, low maintenance, high speed variety. Hmm, maybe if I stick oil in them, they'll be oil stones? Won't hurt the stones, and maybe there's an untapped market. Fast oil stones! :)


So which are those?

[David Weaver]

Don't like a mess? Sharpening is messy.

Yeah, there's that part about where you make a lot of black swarf that there is just no way around. The process it self, even without stone swarf would create a mess.

[David Weaver]

So which are those?

He sharpens with an edm machine.

[Conor Smith]

Frank Klausz uses this neat little box. It works great. Here is the tread on woodnet http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=5306783&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1190300

[Conor Smith]

One more link for Klausz's Box. http://books.google.com/books?id=jPYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=frank+Klausz+water+pond&source=bl&ots=0BcgWwGKac&sig=KD_ajc2iHlImEMki4KZiPOrYdCs&hl=en&ei=8_prTY2CD5SCsQP-8_CmBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=frank%20Klausz%20water%20pond&f=false

[Chris Fournier]

Over thinking it.

I can't understand why everyone gets extra diamond kit to flatten their waterstones. We should all have a granite inspection plate in our shops for several reasons. Buy some 320 grit SIC wet/dry paper and tape it to your granite plate. Flatten your "coarse" 800/1000 grit stone on that and then use this now flat stone to flatten your finer grit stones - cheap and easy. I give my stones a swipe on the surface plate often, taking off very little material. Your chisel and plane blade sharpening will go faster with a flat stone and less tool steel will be gobbled up too.

One final shot, scary sharp should really be called scary expensive. Watersones represent great sharpening value if you maintain them well; which is not hard to do.

[Stuart Tierney]

Me, I go with the low mess, low maintenance, high speed variety. Hmm, maybe if I stick oil in them, they'll be oil stones? Won't hurt the stones, and maybe there's an untapped market. Fast oil stones! :)

(No, I'm not kidding. I might give it a shot someday...)


I just did something so unbelievably perverse and despicable that I wouldn't believe it if I heard it.

Just drowned a water stone in camellia oil...

The perverse part?

I'm not quite sure how to put this into perspective, but, it worked so well I'm disgusted... #1000 stone, pops hair in about 1 minute. It's just wrong.


(Please do not be concerned for the stone. It's one that's been in the freezer, encased in ice for over a month, then taken out and boiled to thaw it out. Oil is probably the nicest thing that's ever happened to it. ;)


This really needs a closer look. Perhaps a thicker oil is required. The camellia soaks in too quickly...

Stu, the deranged one. :D

[David Weaver]

Yeah, you just turned it into a finer stone by putting a relatively thick fluid on it. Basically put fake mud on it to suspend the edge up from the abrasives.

You can start a new movement and then rip on everyone who buys fine stones (you know what i mean, just from the wood central discussions, etc, where you get the types who say that if you don't sharpen your tools with sandy bark and strop them on a piece of tin barn roof, you're just someone with low skills :p)

[Stuart Tierney]

Actually, it cuts and feels like a 5K Chosera.

Not bad considering it's a $10 stone. :)

Hair popping I tells ya, hair popping! Now, what if I go find a lazy 10K and do it to that... Hmm...

Green one, yellow one or white one? I can't decide... :p

Ironically, when that particular little stone is a water stone, because it soaks it's quite clean and keeps it's mud on the stone, no splashing. With oil, it's a disaster. Greasy junk everywhere.

Might throw some diamond paste on there for the fun of it and see what happens. Can't make it any sillier now!

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Loose diamonds might work well.

My prediction, after using mineral oil on a fine oilstone (use WD 40 now in the once-every-blue-moon situation that I get the stones out to use them), is that the 10k will cut slowly if there is much oil left on the surface when you use it.

Diamond paste or powder should charge up any stone that will hold it still. There was a rash of discussion on WC a couple of months ago with folks taking old oilstones and putting diamonds on them and raving about how well they cut with the diamonds in them. Go figure!