Questions from a Newb

[Connor Cunningham]

Hi all, this is my first post here and I had a question for the experts here.

My question is about flattening rough stock by hand. I currently have a ECE Scrub plane and a old tuned up stanley no 4c and i was wondering if I need to consider buying a new handplane to allow me to properly flatten a rough board.


Any help is appreciated,
CC

[Paul Ryan]

Cononor,

I am not a hand plane expert but depending on how long the stock is you are planing on flattening you should get a least a #5 a jack plane. They can be purchased for under $30 off ebay and with a little elbow grease some reading you can tune it up. I have heard of guys using a jack as well there jack of all planes, as their joiner, smoother, scrub, shooter, and everything else. But for most stock over 3ft I think a jointer would be the next plane you should look for to help flattening. A #7 or #8 will run you about $50+ but they are worth it. Again a little elbow grease and tuning and you should be ready to go. I suggest a #4, #5, and #7 or 8 and a low angle block as the planes you will be able to do a lot of work with. Add in a shoulder plane at a later date and you will have everything you need. Sharpening is the most important thing that I have come to learn. A really sharp blade can make a bad plane usable. But a dull blade will make a great plane a POS.

As far as the laminated blade I can't be much help to you. Pictures might help some of the other more experience people on here determine what kind of blade it is.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Connor, and welcome to the Creek. Your profile does not indicate your location. You may live close to a Creeker who would be willing to let you test drive a few of their planes.


My second question is about my stanley no 4c,it seems to have what looks like a laminated blade in it. The blade seems to be original to the plane and it is clearly branded as a stanley sweetheart made in canada. I am not sure if it is actually laminated or maybe my sharpening skills (or lack thereof) is what makes it look like it has two layers. If any one can confirm whether or not stanley made laminated blades it would be much appreciated.

Yes, many Stanley blades are laminated. I do not know when or if they stopped this practice.

jtk

[Connor Cunningham]

Paul,
Thanks for the input, I went and had another look at the blade and found a very tiny high spot on the bevel of the plane blade that was stopping about half the bevel from being polished It is not a laminated blade, I just need to get my eyes checked.

Many thanks,
CC

[Connor Cunningham]

Jim,
Many thanks for the welcome, unfortunatly I don't think any creekers are near me as I live in Ont. Canada. While I remember I have another question, I sharpen my edge tools with a 1000 waterstone, then a 4000 waterstone and then I use veritas green honing compound on a leather strop as a finishing stone, I was wondering if I should go and buy a 8000 grit stone to use before the green compound, or if the green compound will give me the same result as the 8000 stone? any thoughts?

Thanks for the help,
CC

[Jim Koepke]

I used to sharpen with a 4000 stone as my finest stone. The sharpness of my blades improved quite a bit after buying an 8000 stone. It has improved just a little since I started stropping on green compound after using the 8000 stone.

I think the green compound is better for stropping than actually removing metal.

I think we have one or two members in Ontario.

jtk

[Connor Cunningham]

Jim,
Thanks again, the advice is really appreciated, I will pick up a 8000 stone the next time I take a trip to Lee Valley. I have one other question for you. Have you or anyone else found a scrub plane useful when dressing rough stock? I want to make sure I am getting the most out of my money and if the scrub isn't needed, I'll return it and invest that money in a jack plane.

All the Best,
Thanks Again,
CC

[Paul Ryan]

Connor

You can do a lot with a jack plane. As the name implies it can be your go to plane. If you can take back the scrub I would. They are really limited to heavy stock removal. If I have to remove heavy stock that arrives rough planed I use my old #5 with a cambered blade, I dont own a scrub that #5 is my scrub. You could buy a #5 and camber the blade for your heavy stock removal, and buy another blade to keep square and use that as your jointing and smoothing blade. If you buy a veritas standard jack plane they call it the #5 1/4W. The mouth is super easy to change for course or fine shavings and blade changes are fast and easy too. That would be a single plane for most of your stock flattening and smoothing. A scrub is just really limited.

[Greg Wease]

I have an old Stanley #40 scrub plane that I use if I have a major twist and need to quickly knock a lot of material off opposing corners. Usually I'll go with my #5 or #6 with cambered blade. I think you'd find that #5 much more useful than a scrub.

[Connor Cunningham]

Paul,
I can still take back the scrub fortunatly, I should have put a camber on one of the crappy defiance or victory by stanley no 4's that I inherited from my grandfather and used one of those as a scrub. I was looking at the veritas 5 1/4 and it looks great, does anyone have experience with it? or maybe this primus plane? http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32689&cat=1,41182

Many Thanks,
CC

[Jason Chestnut]

Paul,
I can still take back the scrub fortunatly, I should have put a camber on one of the crappy defiance or victory by stanley no 4's that I inherited from my grandfather and used one of those as a scrub. I was looking at the veritas 5 1/4 and it looks great, does anyone have experience with it? or maybe this primus plane? http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32689&cat=1,41182

Many Thanks,
CC

Connor,

For stock prep, I use three planes for three phases -- coarse, medium, and fine. Chris Schwarz has a DVD that is readily available called just that, I think, which goes into detail on how to do stock prep this way. My three planes are a fore plane (mine is an old and rough Stanley #5 with the aforementioned 9" radius cambered blade), a try plane (I currently have a Stanley #7 with the iron cambered about 6 or 8 thou at the edges), and a smoother (I have both a #4 and a #4 1/2, but could do without one of them). You can do a whole lot of work with those three planes.

General process is: 1) Fore plane across the grain or diagonal to the grain to remove rough milling marks and to get the board generally flat. Very heavy (sometimes as much as 1/16", if you feel froggy) cut. 2) Try plane diagonal to the grain with a fairly heavy cut to remove the scallops and to better flatten. Lighten the cut and switch to with-the-grain passes near the end when you want it really flat. 3) Smoother to ... well, smooth.

HTH. Look up that DVD and do some Google searches. There are probably some pretty decent tutorials online.

[Connor Cunningham]

Thanks everyone for the advise, I have another question about the jack, does it have to be longer than the smoother? or just able to take a coarser shaving from the board?. Also how hard is a no 7 to restore? as it seems to me it would be rather difficult to lap the bottom of the plane.

Thanks in Advance,
CC

[Mark Baldwin III]

I'm a fan of scrub planes. I made mine several months ago, and can't imagine doing heavy work without it. If you decide to return yours, you may want to buy a scrub iron and build a Krenov style plane around it. It's a low buck option, and that way you'll have a scrub around when you need it. Of course, making your own planes is another slippery slope. More like a cliff, actually.

[Paul Ryan]

Also how hard is a no 7 to restore? as it seems to me it would be rather difficult to lap the bottom of the plane.

Thanks in Advance,
CC

If you have a table saw or jointer or basically anything with a large very flat surface you can lap the bottom of any plane. 120 grit sand paper and a little sprits of water and start sliding, thats what I did. Just make sure you wipe up and re wax your cast iron as soon as you are done. The fore plane should be longer than the smoother to take out the high and low spots, it does this by how it registers the sole with the stock, the longer the sole the more it follows the highs and lows to make things flat. A smoother is designed to smooth out the marks from flattening and stock preperation, so a long sole is detrimental it wont be able to smooth out every thing because it will follow the highs and lows. That is why there are #1,#2,#3 bench planes, the short soles alow you to get down into the areas the #4 would glide over the top of.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks everyone for the advise, I have another question about the jack, does it have to be longer than the smoother? or just able to take a coarser shaving from the board?. Also how hard is a no 7 to restore? as it seems to me it would be rather difficult to lap the bottom of the plane.

Thanks in Advance,
CC

The jack plane is the multi purpose plane in the group. It is the "Jack of all trades" master of none. It can do smoothing, but is not as good at it as the shorter planes. It can do jointing, but not as good as a jointer. It can be used to dimension wood, but not as good as a scrub or a fore plane. If you are going out on a job though, it is easier to carry one jack plane and a few blades than to carry a bunch of planes.

Restoring a #7 is not terribly hard. Of course it depends on how bad of shape it is in to start with. Lapping the sole is a chore, but it is not always needed. As long as the bottom is good enough to make a square edge or a flat face on a board you are in business.

Here is my adventure with restoring an old #7 that I use regularly:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer

I did carefully dismantle this plane before I bought it. I actually bought it for someone else, but they decided they didn't want to put that much work into a plane. Now, I would likely not trade it for a new LN #7. That plane is part of me and I can feel it every time it makes shavings.

jtk

[Connor Cunningham]

Once Again, Many thanks for the advice guys

I have yet another question, would a LV low angle jack be an acceptable alternative to a jack plane like a no 5 or 6? I know you can buy a variety of different blades for it and I recall seeing a article in fine woodworking about low angle jacks being able to handle many different tasks. I know you guys are probably getting tired of my newbie questions but I hope you guys know I really appreciate the help, I'll try to limit my questions the next time I start a thread.

Thanks Again,
CC

[Jim Koepke]

Once Again, Many thanks for the advice guys

I have yet another question, would a LV low angle jack be an acceptable alternative to a jack plane like a no 5 or 6? I know you can buy a variety of different blades for it and I recall seeing a article in fine woodworking about low angle jacks being able to handle many different tasks. I know you guys are probably getting tired of my newbie questions but I hope you guys know I really appreciate the help, I'll try to limit my questions the next time I start a thread.

Thanks Again,
CC

I have the LN #62. I have used it on edge and face grain, but I usually prefer a bevel down plane for these tasks. The handling is just different. I only have one blade for mine so I am not anywhere near being experienced with the full range of the plane's abilities.

My main purpose for having the LA BU Jack was for shooting end grain. It excels at this task and for me is worth it as being dedicated to just this.

My opinion on questions is one can learn by the questions of others. So if you got 'em, ask 'em.

jtk

[Jason Chestnut]

Once Again, Many thanks for the advice guys

I have yet another question, would a LV low angle jack be an acceptable alternative to a jack plane like a no 5 or 6? I know you can buy a variety of different blades for it and I recall seeing a article in fine woodworking about low angle jacks being able to handle many different tasks. I know you guys are probably getting tired of my newbie questions but I hope you guys know I really appreciate the help, I'll try to limit my questions the next time I start a thread.

Thanks Again,
CC

Excellent plane, and versatile. If you can afford it, I'd highly recommend one. I have it and only use it as a shooting board plane, but it can do about anything you want it to. With a couple of extra irons, you can have it do the job of two or three planes with little work. Grind one iron at a lowish angle (~25 degrees) with a heavy camber (has to be more pronounced than in a bevel-down plane due to geometry) and open up the mouth -- instant fore plane or roughing plane. Grind one low (25 degrees) and perfectly straight and you've got a mondo shooter. Grind one higher and set the mouth tight and you can do great things as a long smoother. Likewise a short jointer. It might not do all of the jobs quite as well as dedicated planes can, but it can do some things better.

[Paul Ryan]

I just purchased a LV LA jack maninly for shooting but will use if for a varity of other tasks as well. The only real con against the LA large planes is grinding a camber on the blade. If you want to use it as a fore plane or a scub you have to grind a ton of material off the blade to get a large camber on the blade. This shouldn't discourage you from buying it thoough. If you are trying to do everything with one plane this is probably the plane for you. But I can almost assure you once you start with 1 plane more are sure to follow.

I would suggest looking for a bailey #5 from someone who has tuned it up already. Or buy one from an auction and learn how to tune it up yourself. Practice sharpening, then you will end up buying a jointer, and a then a smoother and a block plane, and sooner than later a shoulder plane. They are fun, I used to do all my wood working with just "lectric" tools. Now I cant imagine not using hand tools for all sorts of things. My electric saws still get plenty of work, and my 15" planer still gets used frequently, but I dont use my jointer, or my sanders much at all any more.

I was pursuing an 8" jointer when I started using hand planes alot. In the long run I have spent more on hand planes then a new 8" jointer would have run me. In the end the planes are so much more versatile and useful than the jointer would have been. Some days it would still be nice to have the large jointer, but I need it so seldom it doesn't make sense.

[Connor Cunningham]

Many thanks guys,
I bought a no 5 or 6 sized, made in US no name plane from a local guy. Its not a stanley but it is in fairly good shape and was fairly cheap at just over $20. Now I am off to tune it up, Many thanks guys if I have any questions on the tuning I will post again.

Regards,
CC

[Jim Koepke]

Connor,

If you can post a picture, it may be possible for someone to identify your plane.

Before 1902, the only identification Stanley had on their planes was on the lateral adjuster.

The end of the lateral adjuster where the thumb pushes on it can often reveal who the maker was.

Also where the adjuster meets the blade is another identifier.

jtk

[Connor Cunningham]

Well, I finally got my no 5 working and taking a nice thick shaving, thanks for the advise guys. I have some questions as to the value of some other things. I bought a stanley sweetheart no 80 cabinet scraper from the same guy I got the no 5 from, it was thirty dollars, did I get a good deal? He also has a Millers falls no 9 in the original box with a cracked and poorly repaired handle for $40 dollars, would that be worth picking up?