options for the hobbiest aspiring to be full time one day

[Derek Voigt]

Hello all,

I was looking for a way to add some detail and personalization to some of my work. And have a few paths that I'm looking at. First let me list what I would like to do:
1) Engraving words on flat work, like personalization.
2) Add carved details to work, like a pattern around a rail on a chest, or carving the face of some crosses that I make with some detail.
3) Be able to make small router templates for inlaying woods and repeat shapes.

So what are my options?
1) I was contemplating a compucarve, but i have heard such hit and miss story's about the quality and things going wrong that I'm a bit gun shy. I was considering only buying a used one locally so I could see it work... that way I can get a feel for the use of it.
2) Is there another cnc router option that I should look at (that isn't $4-5k) that can do what I'm looking for (and maybe more)?
3) Find someone in the Detroit area that I can sub the work out to when it comes up so i don't have to monkey with it at all...

Let me know what you guys think, keeping in mind that I'm not a production shop and said equipment would not be used on a daily, or even weekly basis.

Thanks,
Derek

[Dan Hintz]

If it's not going to be used even weekly, I would sub it out. It simply will not be worth your time, in my opinion, to learn all of the ins/outs of a full CNC system. You'll spend many many hours trying to perfect things, break a lot of expensive bits, etc. when you could hand over your design and $100 to someone who already knows what to do and have it back in a day or two. At $2k for a CompuCarve, it's not out of the ballpark and may be easier for you to learn, but that's probably more of a personal choice.

[Mick A Martin]

Derek,
If you are a hobbiest and you have the time you might want to consider building a CNC machine, there is a lot of information on the forum do a search. As Dan stated there is a learning curve but that is not too bad once you understand the basics.

Mick

[Connie Ratisseau]

Hello all,

I was looking for a way to add some detail and personalization to some of my work. And have a few paths that I'm looking at. First let me list what I would like to do:
1) Engraving words on flat work, like personalization.
2) Add carved details to work, like a pattern around a rail on a chest, or carving the face of some crosses that I make with some detail.
3) Be able to make small router templates for inlaying woods and repeat shapes.

So what are my options?
1) I was contemplating a compucarve, but i have heard such hit and miss story's about the quality and things going wrong that I'm a bit gun shy. I was considering only buying a used one locally so I could see it work... that way I can get a feel for the use of it.
2) Is there another cnc router option that I should look at (that isn't $4-5k) that can do what I'm looking for (and maybe more)?
3) Find someone in the Detroit area that I can sub the work out to when it comes up so i don't have to monkey with it at all...

Let me know what you guys think, keeping in mind that I'm not a production shop and said equipment would not be used on a daily, or even weekly basis.

Thanks,
Derek

The latest model of the CarveWright Version C meets all of your requirements to a tee.

I know, all of the bad reviews would make me gun shy too, but the CW has come a long way since those reviews. Check the dates, most are old. Many of them are from customers that weren't properly told what they were getting by sales associates that often times, did not even know what a CompuCarve was. (Version C is not available through Sears.) Customers that know what they are getting, learn how to properly operate it, maintain it and yes, just like a car, check the air in the tires (head pressure), make sure it's lubricated so it doesn't run hot (lubricate flexshaft), and change a spark plug (replace bit) from time to time, are having great success!

LHR has learned a thing or two since 2006 as well. Customer Service has been revamped and the website is now full of tools to assist customers in learning the how to's and what if's. It might be time for a second look at the new Version C.

If you get a used one, you could upgrade it to the CarveTight Spindle and retro-fit your decorative bits & probe, but make sure you factor that into the price. It won't have all of the upgrades of the Version C, but it will be as close as you can get with the A or B model machine. (first letter of serial number indicates what model machine it is) Also, call LHR with the serial number to get some history on the machine.

Good luck to you in your search.

[james mcgrew]

i am sure the carvewright has refined the machine, they had too or it would not still be in business, i had a lot of fun with mine before it conked out (6 weeks) and the cost of the shipping made repair a bad idea, sears was worthless on it at the time. i am a commercial end user of my cnc machines and think industrial in my tooling as well as value if it had to be sold (no sense in purchasing if it drops by 1/2 the day you buy it) another criteria is will it do all i want or may possibly want to do in the future, the CW has a limited width this can be worked around yet you will not cut a single part wider than 14" on it, i found real quick that the CW was not the machine i would ultimatly need yet it did bring me into the world of cnc (i had vowed i would never use a cnc) i had some extra money in 06 so it did not hurt so bad to try it.

at the end of the day i have camasters www.camaster.com (http://www.camaster.com) (look at the stinger)

and i use the vectric software www.vectric.com (http://www.vectric.com) see you guys this weekend!!

[Connie Ratisseau]

We have indeed learned a few things. One being, there was no need to ship machines around or swap out for new ones, because of things like sawdust in the electronic board sensor eye or melted flexshaft. These are simple fixes that with the right information, which is now available, can be avoided or easily remedied.

The width limitation per piece is 14.5" inches, but with the tiling technique, you can produce much larger size pieces. Here are two examples.

187730187731187732

The HP sign is made of foam (pink insulation) and measures 23" wide x 20" high.

It is still meant for the hobbyist and is a great introduction tool to cnc, as you discovered. Many customers, both commercial and hobbyists, use and have both in their shops.

As far as Derek's requirements, it does seem to fit his needs.

Also, FYI...Thanks to Vectric for sponsoring the CW Conference in May! With the new STL Importer for bringing in 3d designs, the CW customers can't wait to find out more about how to use the software in conjunction with the CW Project Designer. Michael Tyler, an Aspire user, will be hosting a workshop called CW Project Designer & 3rd Party Software, as well as, Advanced Importing with DXF & STL Importers

[Jim Underwood]

Connie thanks for the information.

I have a couple questions about the carvewright.

Do you have some folks/models nearby that can demo these? I'm near Athens, GA and wouldn't mind taking a look at one.

I'm assuming this machine does not have a controller or spindle similar to commercial models? (I work with a KOMO VR510 w/ATC)

[Connie Ratisseau]

I do! I've got a guy near you in Snellville. Send me a PM and I will hook you up with Capt. Bruce.

I am embarrassed to say, I am not familiar with the bigger commercial models. We use a 1 HP AC cut motor which drives our spindle with a flexshaft at a maximum of 20,000 RPMS depending on the operation. The CW is a servo control system developed by LHR and all of this is included.

There are lots of add-ons available depending on your need, skill level, etc.

[mark anizan]

If you keep your machine clean and lubricated you should have very few problems with the Carvewright.I have 3 of them each one has lots of hours on it.Never had a problem I couldnt solve in a short time.I make a lot of larger projects taking 10-16 hours each run time in the machine. Most problems are operator errors.Yes you can make money with them.

[Derek Voigt]

So as I'm doing the math and the research on this, as I'm sure many other have, I price out a Cravewright to end up running me about $2500 with the addons that I would use. Add on the bit set that they sell and I'm up in the $3000 range. That puts me within easy range of a Shark Pro setup, which seems to be a more durable system. I think that the CW has a pretty week standard warranty (which makes me question quality), and most people say that you should get the extended warranty... I, as a matter of principle, usually make it a point to not buy additional warranties. And why do so many people say it is needed? Because of issues that are likely to happen 6-8 months after purchase?

The CW size is a big plus because I don't have the room for a CNC much bigger then the Shark... So I'm just spinning my wheels here..... and will drive myself nuts thinking about it.

[Dan Hintz]

Why include bits in your price.... every system will need bits.

[Derek Voigt]

That is a good point.... I was just thinking about it from the stand point that I have alot of standard router bits that I could use with a system that takes a regular router, although I'm sure I would need to by a few more.

[mark anizan]

You can do tons of projects with the 2 bits which come with the machine.Add a 60 deg and 90 deg Vbit and the rest you can pretty much do without.As far as the router bit set its way faster if you have a router to do the edge work with it instead of letting the Carvewright do it. The only add on software that you really dont want to be without is centerline text and conforming vectors.The others are nice but can be added later I also use my scanning probe often. The Carvewright is also open ended so the length of your project board can be very long I have done several on 8ft boards that were 14 in wide.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Personally, I'd suggest going as big as you can. $4-6k should get you a 4x4 8020 machine with just about everything you need to get started. Now some people are going to disagree with the prices I listed below. Examples: You don't have to buy everything from FLA. You can get the metal cut from a 8020 supplier and do the drilling yourself. That saves about $400 I believe. $200 for the router is probably $50-100 higher than some people would spend. Others would spend a lot more. The dust collector you might have, or you might go smaller. Easy way to save $100-200. You might have an old PC you can use to run the router so you don't have to spend $400 on that. You might not need VCarve Pro and might choose something less expensive or with less features. Could save you hundreds of dollars. You might find yourself only needed 3-4 bits to get started. That could drop the price way down. Lastly, your misc charges might be far less depending on what you have laying around the shop. Personally, I'd argue strongly to keep $400 as the budgeted number. Limit switches, E-Stop, wire chain, ect all cost money. If you want, you can also purchase a Super-PID which allows you to control the RPM of your router very accurately. I believe that is about $200 shipped. It's pretty easy to use up that Misc fund.

FLA-300 - $3300 (includes Mach 3 & electronics/motors)
Router - $200
Router mount - $80
Computer to run CNC - $400 (optional, but strongly suggested)
Dust Collection - $200
Dust Shoe - $50
V Carve Pro - $600
Misc - $400
Starter Bits - $200

Total: $5,430

[Connie Ratisseau]

The thing about CarveWright's pricing is, you can get into CNC with as little as the current retail price of $1599.99. That is everything you need to get started, machine, Project Designer software w/over 50 patterns, memory card & programmer (so computer is never subjected to the dust) 1/16" carving bit (main bit) and 1/8" cutting bit.

From there the add ons such as accessories, advanced software, sanding mops, scanning probe, decorative bits, additional patterns, projects, acrylics, are all optional and up to the users skill level. You are not forced to buy all of the bells and whistles, because frankly, there are a lot of users that will never use 3d graphics software to design their own patterns. There are customers that are not buying the machine for sign making and don't need Centerline Text.

For $5430, you could pretty much get all of the bells and whistles, plus a second machine! You get a machine that is much smaller than 4' x 4' taking up space in your workshop, but still produces much larger projects!

By the way, the full bit set that he was referring to is a bit box that has 11 different "decorative" bits in it - v-bits, ball nose, routing bits, etc. If you already have these bits or better yet already have a router, you don't need them. If you don't have a router (I know sounds unbelievable to this group, but it's true, some people don't! ;)) then you may want to get these.

The two main bits, do come included and are not extra unless you just want a spare to keep on hand. There are other bits as well, 1/16" cutting bit (for thin materials & intricate cut outs), 3/16 cutting bits for more heftier projects like the 5' Dinosaur and a new bit being announced soon.
http://www.carvewright.com/2010CWweb/gallery/dxfgallery/images/SDC14871.jpg

Derek, I'm with you! I don't buy extended warranties either and you don't have to! The new Version C machine came out in June 2010 and we restructured our pricing, took the one year / 200 hour warranty out of the cost of the machine and reduced it from $1899.99 with one year/200 hr warranty to $1599.99 with a free minimum warranty.

Why did we do that? Again, so users didn't have to buy more than they needed. Specifically, industrial/commercial & international users were buying the machine. The machine is built for the hobbyist, not industrial or high volume commercial use as we all know, plus it is UL certified for use in the United States. Machines taken outside the US or machines used for industrial/commercial use voids the warranty. But, because of the low price point and all of the other benefits, they were buying them anyway and we were voiding the warranty. Now, they don’t have to buy a warranty. Nor do you, but should you decide to get the warranty, it is still offered for up to 90 days after purchase – even after the free minimum warranty runs out.

Plus, because of our confidence in the new version C and, because customers keep asking why we didn’t offer an extended warranty, we made an Extended Warranty available. But, again, you don’t have to buy it! I wouldn’t, but it is there if you think you might need it or just feel more comfortable having it.

I want to add what one of our main Troubleshooting forum members posted this morning:


...I feel like the MAYTAG SERVICE MAN......

Just a Testament to the Increasing Reliability of the Machine....

AL

Sorry for the lengthiness. ;)

[Mike Heidrick]

There is quite a bit of difference in the quality of electronic components used in that FLA design vs a CW. The expanability of features to that FLA is huge. The FLA design has nothing propietary and no software restrictions. It uses a high quality Gecko brand G540 controller (if you buy their electronics kit) that is remarkable for the price. Every part in the plans are universal and generally available by many many vendors. No offense but I would not trade one FLA 4'X4' for a bench full of CWs. I think having to join up 14.5" strips of work is severely limiting and would be a major annoyance. I am guessing ALL your customers that do it - do NOT like it and would change that "feature" in a second!

[Ross Moshinsky]

Could you please put you are a CW rep in your signature. Sounds more like a sales pitch than actual facts.

By the way, the only reason I use the FLA system as an example because it's the only "ready to assemble" CNC kit I know of. Joe's is 90% DIY but I've never been on their forums so I don't know if anyone offers any service where they will send you a kit where all you need to do is assemble.

[Connie Ratisseau]

Signature fixed. It is and has been in my About Me, but now it is in my signature too. My intention is not to do a sales pitch, but the CarveWright reflected on this forum is the older models, and not a true reflection of what the system has grown into.

No doubt, the FLA is a fine system, my point was only that not everyone, including Derek according to his specifications, can afford it.

[Mike Heidrick]

Joe's is 90% DIY but I've never been on their forums so I don't know if anyone offers any service where they will send you a kit where all you need to do is assemble.

I have not seen anyone offer a preassembled Joes or even a materials/parts kit other than unassembled MDF carriage pieces or unmachined castcnc carriage parts. I imagine it would drive up the cost accordingly - at least the price of a FLA machine I bet. Lots more steel in the Joes design so it would be pricey (as built to spec in the plans) to ship.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I have not seen anyone offer a preassembled Joes or even a materials/parts kit other than unassembled MDF carriage pieces or unmachined castcnc carriage parts. I imagine it would drive up the cost accordingly - at least the price of a FLA machine I bet. Lots more steel in the Joes design so it would be pricey (as built to spec in the plans) to ship.

I'm not sure why no one approached Joe to offer ready to assemble kits. I think that is why FLA gained some notoriety. A lot of people want a CNC, are willing to assemble, but do not want to deal with 10 different vendors and/or drilling and tapping to a high level of accuracy. There is nothing special about the FLA kit and in fact, is kind of costly due to the use of 8020 everywhere. I think someone providing ready to assemble Joe's kits would do fairly well. Joe's design is tried and true. I'm sure people would buy it under those circumstances.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

Maybe Joe doesn't want anyone else selling any type of kits, as it would cut into the sales of the kits he sells, which would appear to be quite profitable.