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Joe Pelonio
03-17-2011, 9:11 PM
Out of curiosity, I'd like a rough idea what people would charge for this job.

I gave the guy what I thought was a great price, below which I am not interested, and he claims he had several lower quotes from other people.
I offered them at the price I did because I thought it might be fun, but I still want to make money. It was for quantity 100 9" hammers, engraving words and a simple small logo over about 90% of the handle (one side). One line of text,
about 1/2" letters.

Chris S Martin
03-17-2011, 9:28 PM
No picture and what did you quote the price at?

Doug Griffith
03-17-2011, 9:59 PM
So about 7" x 1/2" of engraving on an odd shape that takes a little bit of work to align the first batch. Multiplied by 100. 4-5 hundred dollars depending on how many I could gang up and the customer PITA factor.

Dean Fowell
03-17-2011, 10:03 PM
Yes I would say 4 to 500 we have to eat

Joe Pelonio
03-17-2011, 10:12 PM
OK, maybe I was high then. My price was $700.

Doug Griffith
03-17-2011, 10:21 PM
$700 is more realistic. I think I'm on the low side because I double dip when lasering (ie. sit next to the laser and program other work while it's running).

Rodne Gold
03-18-2011, 1:47 AM
Joe , without any offense , it appears $700 wasn't realistic as the customer had multiple underquotes , I don't even feel $4-500 is realistic for this job. In my part of the woods I wouldnt get more than $2 per hammer and would probably even lose the job if I quoted at $2!!!
In determining pricing for a job one has to take into account what other marking tequniques would cost , what the cost of the item is , what competiton you have around you willing to cut your throat.
The problem these days is that you can buy much cheaper machines to do more or less the same as our more expensive ones can do At $3k , anyone with a bit of spare cash can afford a laser and all are fighting for a piece of the marking pie - driving prices downwards big time . Thats one of the reasons I am currently avoiding the promotional marking field .. no real profit in it and multiple problems. No matter how good you are in quality and turnaround , promo co's are fickle to a 1c price differential..
One of the hassles of quoting for a job like the hammer and being radically underquoted is the fact that what was once a good customer , now sees you as a "rip off artist" , albeit you are NOT.

Dan Hintz
03-18-2011, 6:06 AM
$4-500 is probably where I'd be.... I wouldn't touch those things for $2/each.

Rodne Gold
03-18-2011, 7:27 AM
It's worth my while at $2 - I have multiple machines and operators to program , run and load the machines , my operators get paid $200 a week , which is actually quite a good salary over here. Like in a lot of other countries , you cant really equate US$ with exchange rate $'s as exchange rates don't translate to what $2 is worth in the US , $2 here is worth more if you exchanged it to Rands and bought local goods etc.

Dan Hintz
03-18-2011, 9:02 AM
my operators get paid $200 a week...
:eek: I'd expect to pay close to $200/day out of my pocket for a good operator when you add in all of the taxes, benefits, etc. For that money, I am the operator ;) Paperwork, setup, laser time, etc. for those hammers is several hours, easily, which brings the "hourly rate" dangerously close to dipping far below the magic $60/hr rate.

Ron Hartl
03-18-2011, 9:25 AM
I would charge $2-$3 each. If the laser was already running 8 hours a day, I would say 4 or 5 dollars each.

Tom Sieczkarek
03-18-2011, 9:54 AM
I would think $6.00 to $7.00 each is a fair price. Run time of about 2-3 minutes each,+ set-up time.
Plus the customer supplied the item and there is that risk factor. The problem with customers is they want the highend look of laser engraving but want to pay sublimation pricing.

Ross Moshinsky
03-18-2011, 10:17 AM
This comes down to business model and overhead. If you run a commercial business where your machine is idle until you get a run, you'd probably be more competitive. If you run a smaller shop or work out of home, your bid will be more competitive.

I see this as an 8hr job. If it makes you feel any better Joe, I think we'd bid at $7-10. I see this as a, I have to come in on Sunday and work all day baby sitting the machine, type job.

Richard Rumancik
03-18-2011, 6:22 PM
Hmmm . . . . if I quoted $7-10 I think I would have my Sunday free . . .

Tim Bateson
03-18-2011, 6:40 PM
Probably $3-$4 each depending on how much work I currently have waiting. Could be $5 or more if I was already busy and really didn't care if I got the job.

*** NOTE: I still have a day job. I believe this is Joe's living.

Michael Kowalczyk
03-18-2011, 6:42 PM
Base your price on one hammer, set up a jig to run multiple hammers, it is almost always a time savings doing it this way with engraving if they can line up in the same area. Just like engraving text is always less time than a photo because of white space between sentences. So if your engraving took 3 minutes to run a single hammer, then doing 5 at a time would probably drop the time to at least 2 1/2 minutes each. So charging the $60.00 per hour wholesale cost would gross $300.00 for them but add a one time 25.00 set up fee with a 10.00 reset up fee if the same file is ran without modifications. make a jig to line them up and you have an extra 50.00 in there to play with. $6-10 to me is way to high for 10 units.
Maybe less than 10 units could justify that much. Just my humble opinion

Joe Pelonio
03-18-2011, 9:25 PM
Actually, Tim, I have had a day job now almost two years. Before that 17 years I lived on my sign business.

Just because he said he had lower quotes doesn't mean he did, of course, but we are in a high cost of living area, and now I will tell you that the customer is a lawyer, if that makes any difference.

Richard Rumancik
03-18-2011, 10:40 PM
Base your price on one hammer, set up a jig to run multiple hammers, it is almost always a time savings doing it this way with engraving if they can line up in the same area. . . .doing 5 at a time would probably drop the time to at least 2 1/2 minutes each.

I know what you are getting at but I don't think you can line up 5 hammers end-to-end unless you have a very wide laser. I could fit two on mine along the y axis. Now if you mean put them parallel to the x-axis you could fit 5 but then you add a lot of "white space" between the hammers. So hard to say what the net result would be . . .

Frank Corker
03-19-2011, 6:06 AM
..........and now I will tell you that the customer is a lawyer, if that makes any difference. well I think $15 a hammer is fine really :)

Dan Hintz
03-19-2011, 8:14 AM
Just because he said he had lower quotes doesn't mean he did, of course, but we are in a high cost of living area, and now I will tell you that the customer is a lawyer, if that makes any difference.
In a recent thread I mentioned I had to fire a customer (for only the second time in my career as a businessman)... the rate was absurdly low, and in the end they came back and said they found several other people who were willing to do it for that price. Good for them. If they continue to take on clients like that, it means I'll be able to take on the clients who don't expect miracles for peanuts, and I can afford to live a little.

The customer's profession, bank account, etc. should mean nothing (does Wal-Mart charge you more than a poor family simply because you can afford more?)... cost of living in the area should be taken into account, however.

Scott Shepherd
03-19-2011, 9:33 AM
If they continue to take on clients like that, it means I'll be able to take on the clients who don't expect miracles for peanuts, and I can afford to live a little.

+1

I have a client we do some work for. It's very specific work. I've watched them for several years now go through vendors on a part of their business we could service. I've seen all the issues and seen how they treat the issues and it's not someone I'd like to work with on that side of the business. For the things we do, they are very reasonable, on the other things, they are unreasonable. I've watched them fire vendor after vendor over that side of their business. They repeatedly ask me to help them and I repeatedly politely decline.

There are several companies close by that do some of what we do. Every time I get the feeling I'm dealing with a bargain shopper, I tell them "I'm sorry, we're not setup to do it, but you know who is? This guy here......." and then they thank me for being so helpful :) I never get the calls from those people thanking me for the referrals.....humm....I wonder why.......... :confused:

Joe Pelonio
03-19-2011, 9:54 AM
The customer's profession, bank account, etc. should mean nothing (does Wal-Mart charge you more than a poor family simply because you can afford more?)... cost of living in the area should be taken into account, however.
Dan I said that with tongue in cheek (lawyer) but yes, the area you are in makes a big difference. Also, having lower prices elsewhere is often not true, but just a ploy to get a lower price.

Joe Pelonio
03-19-2011, 9:55 AM
well I think $15 a hammer is fine really :)
Frank, I just noticed what big ears you have.

Tim Bateson
03-19-2011, 10:54 AM
In a recent thread I mentioned I had to fire a customer (for only the second time in my career as a businessman)... the rate was absurdly low, and in the end they came back and said they found several other people who were willing to do it for that price. Good for them. If they continue to take on clients like that, it means I'll be able to take on the clients who don't expect miracles for peanuts, and I can afford to live a little...


So true! I've recently lost business locally to a retired couple doing this full-time. They were quoting prices that are "at cost" for me. Not sure if they have found a way to buy supplies at a great price or more likely have no clue how to manage a business and money. Even if you are retired and need something to keep busy, I find it hard to believe someone would work all day for nothing....but they do.

Martin Boekers
03-19-2011, 11:55 AM
There will always be someone lower and always be someone higher.

Service and quality can make the difference. I have been under quoted
a bit and sometimes I end up re-doing the job because the lower priced
competitor quality wasn't as expected.

I have had clients come back to me a day or so before the product
was needed, again, because the lower bid decided they couldn't make the deadline!

I have had them come back, because either the quote wasn't valid or the underbidder
suddenly had a service or set up charge.

Typically I have charged $2.50 - $4.00 aver per piece(for larger quantities)
if they supply the item
(+ few extra just in case) I do a lot of wine glasses for events only because of the
pricing, I send the client to Old Tyme Pottery and they buy the glasses at less than
a buck each so for under $4ea they can get 100 or so glasses.

Usually I am under 3 min all time included so I gross $60-$125 per hour on these
type projects depending upon effciencey. I try to keep laser time under a minute
and a half for it to work.

I don't like bidding wars and typically if I bid a job and they come back to me
to see if I can do it for less because someone else said they could, I usually bow out
at that point. If the client has so much free time to bounce back and forth to get
the low, then lower and even lower bid I don't really want to be a link in the chain.

I do find it amazing that there are those that will spend hours and $$ on gas to save $.10
an item.:confused:

John Noell
03-19-2011, 3:49 PM
Like in a lot of other countries , you can't really equate US$ with exchange rate $'s as exchange rates don't translate to what $2 is worth in the US , $2 here is worth more if you exchanged it to Rands and bought local goods etc. In Fiji, the hourly minimum wage for many types of work is less than US$1. "Poverty" here is a different thing when many live rent free in villages, need little clothing, and grow most of their own food or get in from the sea or the "bush." I pay way above mimum wage, just under USD$2 per hour. I have to charge less for engraving than in the USA or almost no one would buy.

Martin Boekers
03-19-2011, 4:34 PM
In Fiji, the hourly minimum wage for many types of work is less than US$1. "Poverty" here is a different thing when many live rent free in villages, need little clothing, and grow most of their own food or get in from the sea or the "bush." I pay way above mimum wage, just under USD$2 per hour. I have to charge less for engraving than in the USA or almost no one would buy.

It is enlightening to have such a vast forum of people from all around the world share their experiences.
And I agree it is even harder to figure out pricing as it is, and has to vary by the country and economic situation.

The way this world seems to be headed, those there in Fiji may have one up on many of us. Don't think many I know more
than a handful that could actually live off the land if it would ever come to that.

Marty

mike berry
03-19-2011, 5:22 PM
The best part about the folks buying the 3K machines and working for free is they won't be around long. Sadly, long enough to hurt the industry. Ya can't work for free....the word profit is not a dirty word!

Rodne Gold
03-19-2011, 6:11 PM
I dont agree that the folk doing it for cheap or "free" wont hurt the market , they drive prices down and eventually the market segment they are throat cutting in is no longer profitable or worth competing in. Those that give better service , quality etc at a higer price are eventually forced into niche markets. (which is not always a bad thing)
What was a nice bread and butter earner is now gone. Dont fool yourselves, price is an extremely important factor , many many folk will accept lesser quality if the price is right, times are still tough out there.
I'm buying a few cheap machines and can tell you my pricing pn certain jobs will tumble as even at lower prices , volume jobs will still be as profitable as im not servicing the extreme captial cost of expensive machinery which is a substantial part of my cost.
My accountant has a good saying , turnover is vanity , profitability is sanity..with cheaper costs you can boost both.

Bill Cunningham
03-20-2011, 10:51 PM
90% of the work I do comes to me over the internet. The balance are local customers I have worked with for over 20 years. The internet ones email me, describe what they have/want/need and I email a quote back including shipping charges. When It's something I can't do, I try my best to send them to someone that can. this pays off in these same potential customers coming back to me to do something for them that I 'can' do. I'm sure I get under cut on jobs I quote but never materialize, but then again, that does not really bother me. I have work booked 10 days in advance. Most times I can deliver in less than 10, but I have the extra time for some jobs that may have an unexpected problem.
The ones that drive me nuts, are some of the local ones that send me an email and tell me they need it in two days. I can usually handle 'some' rush jobs. So, if I can do what they want, and they can give me what I need to do the job, artwork etc.(I send them a link to the artspec page) AND I have their order coming out of my fax machine by noon the next day (I ONLY accept written orders with c/c info. mailing/billing addresses, ph number, and the sig of the cardholder)..
Sure enough, the order comes through, and they then email a totally useless .docx file with low res image that won't import into anything, or a 75 dpi bitmap full of 12 point serif text. Now, they have already wasted my time, and they expect me to go back and read them the artspec page I sent, then hold their hand while I explain how to create files that can actually be used, and still have their order done on time for the quoted price.
At this point, there is always an amount of smug satisfaction on my part, when I tell them, 'sorry', with these delays we no longer have enough time to complete this job for when you need it. At this point I am also thinking "See dummy! this is what happens when you leave things to the very last minute, and expect others to fix your mess".. hmmmm rant off...:o.. Can you 'tell' whats bugging me this week..ha..

lucas kreft
03-21-2011, 7:43 AM
i would charge 100/h in my case.
The best was when I was going to architects in my city one wanted to do 50 glass windows, from the dimensions and what I could remember, I said something like $500(5-8 hour laser time/piece).
He said that was a little too expensive, 50 a window, I kinda laughed.

Dan Hintz
03-21-2011, 7:56 AM
The best was when I was going to architects in my city one wanted to do 50 glass windows, from the dimensions and what I could remember, I said something like $500(5-8 hour laser time/piece).
He said that was a little too expensive, 50 a window, I kinda laughed.
Was a laser the proper tool for the job? Unless it had very fine detail that only a laser could have done, a sandblaster would have been significantly less expensive in terms of time. Even then, though, I would have laughed at $50/window, too, unless the design was something like a big circle.

Mike Lassiter
03-21-2011, 9:55 AM
In many areas we see prices remain the same, but the quality becoming less and less. It seems generally speaking that for different items there is a set mental price that people are willing will spend, and beyond that sales suffer. For example we purchased Christmas stockings from Walmart starting in 2001 when we got our commercial embroidery machine. We could sort through their stock and get only the best ones, and didn't get any that didn't meet our standards. The material was very thick, they were good stocking for the price. Every year the price has remained the same, but the thickness of the fur has gradually became less and less. Now they have to put a piece of heavy paper inside the stockings so they will sort of look like a stocking when you hold it up to look at it, and will not droop too bad. I have some of these over the years as our own family has grown (grandkids) and it is an eye opener to compare the same item, purchased from the same store over about 5 years and see the quality first hand of them all side by side. They do have a better stocking for triple the cost, but it isn't that much better either. I notice those don't sell very well, the cheap crappy ones are still the ones that continue to sell each year. That reason was what motivated us to start making our own stockings and buy our ILS series laser from ULS.
The material we use comes from a mill in Wisconsin, and cost us more on a roll than what the finished stockings were costing us when it is all calculated out. I have a vastly better quality stocking than what we were able to obtain to embroider on. We make them ourselves from "scratch", and have ask the same for them as what we were asking for the lesser ones. NOT made in a factor in China, but in a small building in West TN; and it has been a challenge to sell them. We got into this part just as the economy dropped. This has been pretty frustrating to say the least.

Next thought is about how prices remain the same as with the stockings and you continue getting less. Look at candy bars, fast food burgers, etc. I ate a honey bun this morning that was perhaps 1/2" thick and about 1/3 the diameter of the ones I remember from days gone by. I see TV ads showing us the burgers with the meat hanging out of the bun all the way around - that's cute because that's not what I get when I buy one! The standard fast food hamburger bun now resembles a biscuit is size, and the meat still is hide by the bun on what is sold around here. What choice do we have as consumers for it is the same everywhere? What choices do we have as businesses trying to compete against those that sell by lowest cost and those only interested in the lowest cost? Look at how Walmart has became the largest retailer, and how many mom and pop businesses that are no more because they couldn't compete on price against Walmart. They probably did give better service, but it seems generally speaking most want the cheapest thing.
While in Hobby Lobby I was looking for a specific spray can of paint that was referenced by members here. Hobby Lobby had it for $4.97 a can. I bought the SAME brand, same size, exactly the same can of paint at Walmart for $3.97. That's roughly about 20% difference for the same exact item. We are guilty of wanting the best price too -and comparing apples to apples is a good way to do that. However, we can't source our items from India, and all the other countries where people make nothing for a wage. We have people see a shirt in Walmart embroidered all over for $19.99 and a plain shirt with no embroidery for $14.99. Look at the tag, and they both come from India, and several other countries I can't spell. Who in the US can embroider on a shirt for $5 much less all over front and back AND profit doing it? It seems what is expected of all is having your cake and eat it too. We think we should get super quality and the lowest cost together in the same item. When we were getting laser and other things for our home business, I tried to source American suppliers because I believe we are sending our jobs overseas by thinking only about the lowest cost. People here work and generally speaking make a decent wage. That's why the products come back here to be sold. The people making the products would have to work weeks to be able to afford one shirt oversea. I wanted to do my part to help keep fellow Americans working. As Rodne said about machine cost and product cost, the more expensive machine cost more than the lesser one. It is a big factor in trying to make a living when (in my area anyway) everyone thinks Walmart is making "a killing" and became the largest retailer. They surely are making a lot of money, so they think you should be able to sell to them for less than Walmart for similar items. The truth is, some of the items we have sold locally came from the local Walmart store. We find we can't buy small quantities that we can afford to spend for items any cheaper "wholesale" then have to add shipping cost on top of that.
Sorry for length - I'll shut up now.