Rebuilding the Three Season Porch

[Dan Mages]

Good afternoon everyone.

Wifey and I are going to rebuild our 12'x16' three season porch this spring. The current deck is under structured with 2x6 joists running parallel to the house and only one 2x8 joist running down the middle perpendicular to the house. One joist has a notch in it from its past life as a roof rafter. There is also some rot, the door is hard to open, etc... The roof is fine, AFAIK, but the rest has to go.

I have carpenters and contractors coming in over the next few days to go over the structure and provide quotes. Hopefully I will find one that is reliable and does good work.

The plan with the new porch is to keep the dimensions the same, but add a 3-4' landing on the side so the stairs can meet building code and have somewhere better for the grill. The deck will be overbuilt a bit with larger than needed joists so we can have dinner parties of 12+ people without fear of it collapsing. The screens will be replaced with simple windows or storm windows so we can seal it up during a bad storm and during the winter.

I could use help from the fine folks here to help understand what I should look for in the quotes, questions to ask the contractors, and any advice that you think might be useful. As the quotes come in, I will post the details here.

Thanks everyone,

Dan

PS, for your amusement, the rejected offers I received from Craigslist...


HI MY NAME IS THOMAS xxxxx.I HAVE ALL THE INS.TOOLS AND
EXP TO DO THE JOBMY # IS xxx-xxx-xxxx

THANK YOU


Hi, yes i like to bid that job i have licence end insured,n references my name Eugene,call me xxx-xxx-xxxx.
or send a email...thanks

Thanks, but if your emails are any indication of the quality of your work... I'll pass :rolleyes:

[Brian Effinger]

My only advice, Dan, is to have them give you detailed quotes. No one liner's. That is the only way you'll be able to compare apples to apples, and not some other round fruit. I'd also talk to your local building inspector about the contractors that are interested. There is a good chance the inspector will know the work of some of them, and he'll be able to tell you what the municipality will be looking for (i.e. permits, drawings, etc.).

Feel free to pm me with any questions, if you'd like. I'm an architect in Buffalo, and lately all I've been doing is smaller residential jobs, such as your's. :)

[Jim Koepke]

My wife is always watching Mike Holmes program, Holmes on homes.

Searching this > holmes on homes hgtv < lead me to a page of tips on getting such work done.

http://www.hgtv.com/search/holmes-on-homes/results.do

I was looking for a recent program where he was rebuilding an old deck that had a lot of tips on getting it right.

A few of the things I recall was he said joists should be at 90º to the house. They should also be bigger than the minimum needed. He also installed the joists at an even height with a slope for drainage. His was not enclosed. After the joist were all installed is when the joist hangers were installed. This allows for slight differences in the boards. The level of the deck was also below the door opening into the house.

One of his warnings is if a contractor tells you that permits are not needed, get a different contractor.

My wife has learned a lot from his program. I watch it when I can, but there is a lot to quality construction work.

THIS JUST IN...

Found the Holmes on homes program I was thinking of by searching > Holmes on homes deck <

I can't find the video, but there is a schedule at the site. His program is popular and comes on a few times a week with reruns and one new show.

jtk

[Dan Mages]

I received the first quote back today. Here are the details. If this price is reasonable, then we will have to hold off on the rebuild for a few years. I did not budget for it to be this expensive.


Obtain building (Structural and electrical) permits from the City of New Haven
Demo existing structure while salvaging the roof and roof structure
Pour concrete footers
Frame structure using 2x10 floor joists, 12 inches on center and 2x4 wall studs 16 inches on center
Install vinyl double hung windows on 3 walls of room
Insulate room with r-13 fiberglass insulation
Install drywall, tape and mud (3 coats). (Paneling can be used instead of drywall, homeowners option). Drywall will be left ready for painting, painting not included
Install tongue and groove fir flooring.
Install base and casement trim along all windows, doors and floor
Install 4 recessed lighting fixtures and 1 ceiling light box (homeowner to provide light fixture for ceiling light)
Install 2 electrical outlets along each wall
Install 1 exterior light fixture near porch stairs
Install 1 set of stairs and hand rail to enter and exit 3 season room
Install 1 exterior door to enter and exit 3 season room to back yard and 1 exterior door to enter and exit house.
Install Vinyl siding, color to match house.
All construction debris will be removed from property and property will be swept with a magnet to remove the majority of screws and nails.

Total cost: $34,750

[Jim Koepke]

Getting a job done properly is not going to be cheap.

Getting a job done wrong may be cheap, but in the long run it could be very expensive.

jtk

[Brian Effinger]

Dan, that seems high to me, but price does vary depending on the area of the country due to both materials and labor availability. I would have guessed 10 to 15 thousand less. This quote does leave me with at least one question. What kind of footers are they proposing? Will it be built like a deck with round pier type footers or is he talking about a continuous trenched footer all the way around the structure? That would make a big difference in price.

Also, I don't know anything about you, other than the fact you participate in a woodworking forum. That being said, could you install the flooring and hang the trim work? Are there other "finishing" type jobs that you could take care of?

In any event, I'd wait for a few more quotes before writing this project off.

[Connie Gill]

I don't have any advise...I'm just plain jealous you have 3 seasons to enjoy on a porch! We have summer and winter - summer is hot and dry and windy, winter is wet, cold and windy!

[Bob Riefer]

I agree with waiting for a few more quotes. The one in the middle is probably the best one to use as your guide. I generally get 5 quotes unless I know the contractors that are coming through (like I've used the same excavation contractor for years etc.). Also, I agree that after the structural work, you can do a lot of this yourself - specifically, siding, windows, flooring are not very difficult if you read up on it and take your time.

[Dan Mages]

There are two things holding me back from finishing it myself, my daughter and my health. I am (was) the primary care giver and have no free time to spend working on this project. Secondly, I just had surgery and cannot lift anything over 5 lbs for the next 8-10 weeks. Yeah, I could put my daughter into daycare to do the work once I am healed, but she has already been in it for a month and I don't want to spend any more time apart than I have to. I have 6 more quotes coming. I budgeted $10k for this job... I am starting to think that was foolish.

[Bob Riefer]

I think $10K will be too little to pay someone else to do the work, but see what the bids are. However, you may be able to get a summer porch that can later be converted for that price. Next year perhaps things are different and you can take it the rest of the way (or pay someone at that time). Good luck with your health :)

[Dan Mages]

Another thing we need to consider is whether it is smart to add $20k in equity to the house in this housing market. I honestly don't know if we will see that money back if we had to sell the place in the next 5 years, which is a real possibility.

Dan

[Mike Cutler]

Dan
ew
The initial bid is doing a lot of work. It's basically a new addition. How much is really necessary?
If your main issue is that floor, have it done as a separate item along with the additional 3'-4' landing. It's not going to be cheap, but it shouldn't approach $35K. Pull the floor, run full length joists, or replace the 2x8 ( or double it up ) and sister full length 2x6's to the existing 2x6's. Basically double up the support joists. Redo the subfloor with 2 layers of plywood and add your floor later. The door can also be re-roughed and hung.
If the work is more consistent with a "repair", some of the permits may not apply. For what you were quoted though, the structure will have to meet current codes. Renovating to meet current codes can be fairly costly.
One lingering question is why there is a need to pour footers? Is the structure sitting on grade, or are these new footers for the 3-4' extension?

PS. I just got quoted ~$1700.00 to install a propane tankless water heater, not including the heater or vent. It was going to be almost $800.00 just to hook up a propane storage tank water heater, also minus the cost of the water heater.
I guess there is no recession in CT. ;)

[Randy Moore]

Why do you need floor joist on 12" centers? Most if not all houses have 16" on center floor joist.
Also use 3/4" plywood on the floor now, if you don't roof it now. Next year when you have more money you can put the flooring you want down ON TOP OF THE PLYWOOD.
Just my .02 which isn'y worth that much now-a-days.

[Dan Mages]

Dan
ew
The initial bid is doing a lot of work. It's basically a new addition. How much is really necessary?
If your main issue is that floor, have it done as a separate item along with the additional 3'-4' landing. It's not going to be cheap, but it shouldn't approach $35K. Pull the floor, run full length joists, or replace the 2x8 ( or double it up ) and sister full length 2x6's to the existing 2x6's. Basically double up the support joists. Redo the subfloor with 2 layers of plywood and add your floor later. The door can also be re-roughed and hung.
If the work is more consistent with a "repair", some of the permits may not apply. For what you were quoted though, the structure will have to meet current codes. Renovating to meet current codes can be fairly costly.
One lingering question is why there is a need to pour footers? Is the structure sitting on grade, or are these new footers for the 3-4' extension?

PS. I just got quoted ~$1700.00 to install a propane tankless water heater, not including the heater or vent. It was going to be almost $800.00 just to hook up a propane storage tank water heater, also minus the cost of the water heater.
I guess there is no recession in CT. ;)

If you crawled under the deck, you will see why. The joists run parallel to the house with only one central beam coming from the house. There is no ledger board or any joist hangers or supports. A couple of the 2x6 joists are miss-cut roof rafters with notches cut near the end. If you look carefully under the door, you can see the sag in the structure. New footers are needed. The deck is about 12" off the ground on the high side and about 30" on the low side. The deck is currently sitting on concrete block pillars that only go down a couple of feet. Fixing the problems will be as much work as redoing it.

How is it that I had 12 people over to look at the deck and I only have 2 quotes in my hands? The rest promised by the end of last week. If I don't get their quotes by the end of this week, I cannot count on them being reliable and I will be back to square one....

[Shawn Pixley]

Sorry, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. To be able to rebuild the porch for $10k, you'd need to believe that it could be done for 52$/sf. Unless you're doing a lot of the work yourself, i'm not convinced it could be done. The materials alone could be over that amount.

Is there a way this could be broken down into pieces executed over a period of time? Potentially alowing you time to heal so that you could do the finish work yourself.

[Dan Mages]

Here is quote #2... We are debating this one right now, but there is one MAJOR code issue with proposals 1 & 2. Can anybody spot it?


Proposal 1. Subframe demolition & replacement: We will remove the existing subframe in its entirety, temporarily supporting the existing walls, ceiling, and roof structure. We will rebuild a new pressure treated subframe on new footings, with new flashing tied into the existing walls. We will remove all construction debris. We will then install a new subfloor, ready to receive the carpet or flooring of your choice. We will remove the existing steps temporarily, and reinstall. This does not include any electrical work, or insulation. This also does not include any work to the roof, or walls. This also does not warrant the existing framing of the walls, and roof.

$ 6,100.00

Proposal 2. Subframe Replacement of Proposal 1, plus new 2 x 4 stud walls, and window installation: We will perform all of the work of Proposal 1, plus we will also demolish the existing walls, preserving the roof and ceiling, which will be temporarily supported. We will frame a new 2 x 4 stud wall around the perimeter, with an approximately 2' knee wall with a bead board interior panel, and reinstall the vinyl siding on the exterior. We will reinstall the existing steps. We will install the windows of your choice, priced separately. This also does not include electrical work, painting, or insulation.

$8,200.00, plus the cost of the windows.

For Double Hung Windows (Home Depot: American Craftsmen) add $2,200.00

For Sliders (Harvey Bldg. Products), add $3000.00

For Casements (Harvey Bldg. Products, add $4200.00


Please note, window prices are approximate. The actual cost may be more or less, depending on the final design, federal tax incentives, and if they are excluded from CT sales tax. The window prices do include a 5' wide sliding door, insulated glass, and screens.


Proposal 3. Subframe Replacement, 2 x 6 stud walls, new ceiling, new roof, insulation of the floors walls, and new steps: The structure will be insulated to the following values: ceiling R-30, walls R-19, Floor (subframe) R-30. We will repair the existing cedar shingles that are now missing around the interior door, and install new trim. We will install new roof, and ceiling framing, and re-roof to match existing house. The porch roof will also have ice and water shield over its entirety (not felt). The porch roof will be framed to have front overhangs, to keep water off the front glass. We will install a new gutter, and leader in the front. We will construct new pressure treated stairs, supported by a new concrete landing pad. We will install a new bead board ceiling. We will repaint the existing cedar shingles white.

$13,700.00, plus the cost of the windows.

We called the New Haven Building Department. I spoke directly to Mr. Anthony Rizzo, New Haven Building Inspector. He told me that a permit is necessary, and that we would not have to add electrical outlets along the perimeter wall. He also stated that the permit fee is $57 for the first thousand dollars, and $27 for each additional thousand dollars of the project's value thereafter. He said he would accept hand drawings that show the basic dimensions, and construction, which I will make. Permit fees are not included.

I can provide a licensed electrical contractor who can replace the wiring, outlets, and light boxes. He can also add more outlets to the the perimeter wall, and bring the electric to code. If you would like to do this, his fee would be $1000.00, and the electrical permit fee would be included. He can also add a light box to the exterior porch door (fixture extra) for added convenience, and security.

For ceramic tile installation: add $1200.00, including selected tiles, and other materials.

For skylight installation: add 1650.00 per skylight. (upon acceptance of Proposal 3).

Thank you for reviewing this. Please feel free to ask any further questions. It was a pleasure meeting your family. Should you decide to move ahead, I have a long list of references that you can call, as well as visit some of the jobs that I have completed.


Proposal #1 is a possibility. I can put Abby in day care 3 days a week for a month later this summer and get the majority of the rest of the work done.

Did anyone spot the code violation?? Its the reuse of the old stairs. There are two issues. Code requires a landing at the door that is at least as wide and deep as the door itself. Secondly, the current stairs do not have balusters or hand rails that would meet code requirements. I can only think of three possibilities... He is either trying to cheat us, he doesn't know the code, or just doesn't care. He has been very good at explaining things and claims to have had a civil engineer work on the details of the structure. I'm not sure if I should use this guy.

[Dan Mages]

Delete.....

[Matt Day]

Have you simply asked him about the stairs? He could have simply made a honest mistake or overlooked it.

Either way, I like the suggestion of checking the contractor out with the local building inspector, or asking for references.

[Jeremy van Gelder]

Be sure to find out what percent contractors are allowed to charge you over your bid after you have accepted it. Here in NH, if I remember correctly, you can be charged up to 20% over the price of the bid you accepted. I'm not saying you should count on someone doing that, but know that they legally can, and have the ballpark number in your head.