jointer and planers recommendations

[George Panagopoulos]

I am setting up a new shop in about a year, so I have been trying to learn a great deal and this site has been very helpful. Since I am starting fresh I would like some opinions on separates vs. euro jointer planers. I am looking for quality equipment and not interested in rebuilding old equipment.

The question I have is if I have adequate room and budget, what would be better separates like Powermatic 16" jointer and PM201HH (22") planer vs. a 16" j/p like the Felder? The costs seems similar for either option. I'd like so select good equipment that will last 15-20 yrs.

[Mike Mastin]

Personally I like separates as I could upgrade one without replacing both and having a limited audience that would be interested in purchasing a Euro style all in one type piece of equipment. Felder is nice stuff, but the Euro systems just have not caught on here in the US for what ever reason. Again Felder makes very nice equipment, but the separate units would allow for upgrades much easier IMO. Who knows, maybe you might consider down grading a unit in the future to one with less capacity (though i would doubt it).

[Andrew Gibson]

I have to say you have good taste.
My dream machine would be a 16" combo machine. I would love a 16" jointer. I really do not see a time in the near future when I would have room for 2 machines of such size. If you have cash and room for 2 large machines I think separate would be more convenient.

Personally I have a hard time believing I will end up with anything larger then something like the 12" Jet JJP.

[Frank Drew]

George,

If you have the space in your shop, and the cost is more or less the same, individual machines make the most sense, IMO. When you consider the greater capacity (just about always a good thing) you'd get in a 22" planer, plus the upgrade/resale issues, plus the ease of using and, inevitably, servicing separate machines...

I didn't know that Powermatic made a 16" jointer; wide is nice, and I'd never argue against more capacity, but I don't think you'd be unhappy with a quality 12" machine.

You wrote: "I am looking for quality equipment and not interested in rebuilding old equipment." Lots of older, excellent machinery is ready to go without any refurbishing beyond maybe some cleaning and having the blades sharpened; don't discount the many advantages of used -- excuse me, pre-owned :D -- equipment.

[glenn bradley]

I'm happier with separates.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have a 12 inch combination machine, a Hammer A3-31.

I went from a General jointer and planer to the Hammer, to increase my jointer capacity without taking up a lot of room.

I'd consider General equipment to be the same as made in USA Powermatic equipment, and I find that the Hammer machine leaves a superior finish compared to the General machines.

The Felder equipment is even better, with a wide range of options.

If you don't like combination machines, buy the Felder individual machines, much nicer than Powermatic.

You really do need to go to a Felder dealer and have a look at the equipment, there's a good reason that sales are growing in NA for the Euro equipment..........Regards, Rod.

[jonathan eagle]

I have a lunchbox 12" planer and a 6" jointer. I'm upgrading to a 12" sch combo machine. I still plan to use the lunchbox and keep the combo setup as a jointer. So my vote is for seperates.
(Except if I think I need good finishes on both sides.) Since you are starting with nothing, it's a different problem.

[John Morrison60]

Much like Rod, I obtained a 12" Minimax Jointer/Planer after using separate machines.
I much prefer the combo machine.
Overall quality is superb.
Changeover between jointing and planing is easy, not a problem.

One huge advantage in my mind to the combo machines, is the fact that when you
want to install a helix head, you only need one head to service both jointing and planing.

I installed a Byrd Shelix head in my Minimax, and I think it is about perfect now.

Good luck
John

[scott vroom]

Other than a small footprint, what are the advantages of a combo vs separate equipment? Are you a hobbiest or will this be for a business? Are you planning to do production cabinet work? If so, have you considered changeover time of a combo JP? If you have the floor space and the money to spend, you might find separate equipment more convenient.

The euro brands were never an option for me due to cost. My son and I launched a small cabinet business last year on new Grizzly equipment, including an 8" jointer and 15" planer (both with spiral cutters). When rushing to get out a job, it's nice to go from jointer to planer without constant changeovers.

[Ryan Hellmer]

I have no experience with a combo, but do wonder it they would be better. I have a 16" crescent jointer and 18" woodmaster planer (hopefully with a 20" PM on the way). I'm running out of room! I like the BIG jointer for facing, but I use my 6" for all edging so that's yet another machine. I think the "inconvenience" that some people think combo's create is simply a lack of planning. When I run my stock I do all the facing, then all the planing, then all the edging, then all the ripping. That way I'm not hop-scotching between and over machines as it's a real hassle with my power cord and dust collector situation (1 hookup each). If money isn't an issue and space isn't an issue I'd buy separate, if either are, I'd seriously consider the combo. I haven't heard too many complaints about Felder.

Ryan

[Paul Symchych]

Before jumping on which machine to get it could be helpful to decide what you expect to use it for.
All very well to say 'buy a Ferrari' because its a fine machine but if its only to run to Circle K and back??

[Ira Matheny]

I have an 8" long bed joiner and a 16" planer. I like the seperate equipment as I can move from one to the other with only the flip of a switch. Time of convert and check accuracy is not to my liking.

I have had only one project that could not be handled with these two. It was a game table top that was 30" square.

I say '2 thumbs up' for seperates.

[scott vroom]

When I run my stock I do all the facing, then all the planing, then all the edging, then all the ripping. Ryan

Ryan, that's an interesting workflow. I prefer to rip first, for 2 reasons:

1) Narrowing a cupped board generally reduces the amount of face jointing required. Face jointing an 8" board with a 1/8" cup means I have to thin the board at least 1/8" on the jointer. If I rip that same board into 3 strips, the cupping on the narrower boards will be significantly reduced.

2) I find that when I rip a board after it has been straightened/flattened it often moves out of square in one or both directions. At that point the boards are useless for that project.

The workflow I prefer is edge joint, rip, edge joint, face joint, plane

[Mike Mastin]

I always give all rough lumber a visual inspection for twist, warp, bow, etc. If there are issues such as these I set this lumber aside. All lumber that is fairly free of these defects, I will skip plane so that i can determine what the color, grain patterns and figure of each board looks like. After this I then plan out the use for a board and cut to size plus 1". I then face joint one face and edge, then I plane the boards to final thickness.
I never cut any board to specific lengths for a project without first skip planing them as I am picky about color, grain and figure of each piece that I want to use in any project. Those boards that were found to be twisted, warped, bowed etc I normally determine the maximum lengths I can get from each board with minimal surface material removal to get a good flat board. I almost always use these boards for secondary pieces of a project, unless they turn out to be something spectacular.

The wood dictates where it will be used in a project, not whether I can get specific number of pieces or lengths from a board.

[David Kumm]

I think a sliding saw shaper can make sense but don't think you should rule out older jointers or planers. You can buy a northfield 12 or 16 hd for 2500-4500. Even an oliver 166bd 12" for less than 3500. Powermatic 18 or 24 inch planers, or rockwell wedgebed 18 can be had for a couple of thousand or so. There is no comparison in the jointer or even the planer area with old cast iron machines. The jointer in particular needs mass and flat tables. I would only trade my porter for a format or martin- at about 25000 more. Old machine prices are down and lots are available if you are a little patient. I started out with new taiwan-at the time- delta type equipment, went to felder and knapp - and upgraded to old oliver planers, and bandsaws, porter jointer, yates american etc. They are a joy to use. Still have the euro sliders and shapers because they are the best at what they do, but the old stuff will smoke anything but the very top end today unless you need the electronics. Dave

[George Panagopoulos]

Thanks for all of the excellent feedback.

[Brian Weick]

you don't want old equipment, but you want quality?

hm,,
I am being serious here....and I would like you to be honest with me. Have you ever had the privilage of working on a OWWM machine; like this Amercan Woodworking 20" hand jointer?

Thank you,,,
B,

[Frank Drew]

I prefer to rip first.
1) Narrowing a cupped board generally reduces the amount of face jointing required. Face jointing an 8" board with a 1/8" cup means I have to thin the board at least 1/8" on the jointer. If I rip that same board into 3 strips, the cupping on the narrower boards will be significantly reduced. I never find that a ripped and re-glued board looks as good as one that's been left full width, without any glue lines. I know that the grain interruption strikes some as rather minor, but it's there, I can see it, and I'll avoid it if I can. That's why I like a wide jointer.


I find that when I rip a board after it has been straightened/flattened it often moves out of square in one or both directions. At that point the boards are useless for that project. No reason to leave it wide unless you want it full width, so any subsequent ripping should be minor at most. IMO.

[Steve Rowe]

George - about 7 years ago I went from separate Bridgewood 8" jointer and 13" planer (both fine machines BTW) to a Felder CF741 full combo with the 16" J/P. I have since gone back to separates for the saw and shaper but stuck with the 16" J/P combo with no regrets. The J/P combo gives a lot of capability for very little shop space. I have used both Minimax and Felder J/P combos extensively and either will do the job equally well. I have never owned any Powermatic equipments so I can't offer any valid comparisons on these. I do know that if I were to go separates now for the jointer and planer (and if I could afford to do so), they would both be Martin.

[George Panagopoulos]

I said I did not want to fix up old equipment. I would be open to fully restored old equipment, but do not have the desire or skill to rebuild old equipment.

[George Panagopoulos]

Steve,

Thanks. I was wondering if the J/P would hold up over time and this could be an option if I run tight on space. I am definitely leaning towards a saw/shaper, but not a full combo machine. Hopefully the $ will not weaken against the euro further in the next year or two.

[David Kumm]

Take a look at woodweb. There are plenty of used machines, from old iron to more recent euro stuff that are plug and play. Many OWWM guys are looking for low priced stuff that have to be fixed, but there are lots of really good machines. Just make sure the bearings and motors are good. The motors usually are, the bearings might not be. The old stuff used really high quality bearings. They last forever, especially if oil cup, but are expensive to replace of equal quality. Just look for the best you can afford and let age be secondary. I bought a new knapp after they went bankrupt- for half price- and well worth the risk. It is as good as the euro combos get. My bandsaws are from 1936 and 1939. If you shop carefully you can find great stuff and still afford to eat-once in a while. Dave

[Curt Harms]

I am a proponent of combo machines for hobbyist/artisan/low volume shops. For high volume shops I'd think the changeover would become an issue as Scott says above. It also depends on how wide your stock typically is. Having an 8" jointer and 9" wide stock is no better than having a 6" jointer and 7" stock. it's not uncommon for me to find 10"+ boards so having 12" jointing/planing capacity at a reasonable $$ makes sense.

[Brian Weick]

well,

Good luck with whatever you decide to purchace...!http://www.contractortalk.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif


B.

[Frank Drew]

It also depends on how wide your stock typically is. Having an 8" jointer and 9" wide stock is no better than having a 6" jointer and 7" stock. it's not uncommon for me to find 10"+ boards so having 12" jointing/planing capacity at a reasonable $$ makes sense.

I'm not familiar with the configuration of the combination machines, but an ordinary jointer can face plane stock up to just under twice the cutterhead width, by flipping the work end for end after each pass. Trust me, it's not difficult and it works fine for flattening one face of a board before it goes through the planer, and it's a good bit simpler than building a planer sled.

[scott vroom]

I never find that a ripped and re-glued board looks as good as one that's been left full width, without any glue lines. I know that the grain interruption strikes some as rather minor, but it's there, I can see it, and I'll avoid it if I can. That's why I like a wide jointer.

Makes sense. I'm building cabinets and rarely see stock that would require a 12" planer. I guess if you're making furniture then paying more for wider/thicker stock might make sense. The point I was trying to make is that the wider the stock, the more likely you are to face joint off more thickness than if the planks were narrower.

[Jim Becker]

I'm an owner and lover of the Euro J/P combo setup. Great capacity in limited space. And since I also have a slider, I rarely edge joint, anyway...for me, it's about flat lumber before I thickness and rip and I do prefer wider lumber.

[dan lemkin]

I have the Minimax FS35 and love it. I just got 150 bdft of 10" maple x 10ft long, and the 14" jointer is great. It also let me plane glueups >12" wide. The 14 and 16 are much more expensive than the 12" models, but you get:

Bigger, heavier machine
Much longer tables which is really nice for longer piece support

[Ray DuBose]

Hammer A3-31 Here with a Byrd Head on it. Space was part of the consideration but the fit and finish of the machine is top quality. Also since Joining and Planing use the same head I didn't have to buy a Byrd head for 2 different machines.

Ray

[Vijay Kumar]

Hammer A3-31 Here with a Byrd Head on it. Space was part of the consideration but the fit and finish of the machine is top quality. Also since Joining and Planing use the same head I didn't have to buy a Byrd head for 2 different machines.

Ray
Ray, did you do the Byrd conversion yourself or did you get it that way from Hammer? I am in the market for a 12 inch J/P so would appreciate all details including costs.
Thank you.
Vijay

[Mark Carlson]

Vijay,

I got a Hammer A3-31 this week. Spent the weekend setting it up and playing with it. I ordered mine with Byrd head installed The machines come over from Austria with the straight knife heads and get replaced in Delaware before they ship to you. I was told I had to get the digital guage so I did. Havn't installed it yet. First impressions of the Hammer are excellent. The machine came in perfect condition, and everything is really high quality. Beds and fence are perfectly flat or as close as I can measure. The best of any machine I've purchased so far. The most time was spent getting the 800lb machine off of the pallet and onto some great lake casters so I could move it around easily. The last thing I did was try to joint and plane a 8/4in piece of stock square and I got near perfect results without having to tweak anything.

My other choice was the 12in minimax but I really wanted the byrd head. I think byrd might offer a head for the minimax that you'd have to install yourself.

~mark

[Vijay Kumar]

Vijay,

I got a Hammer A3-31 this week. Spent the weekend setting it up and playing with it. I ordered mine with Byrd head installed The machines come over from Austria with the straight knife heads and get replaced in Delaware before they ship to you. I was told I had to get the digital guage so I did. Havn't installed it yet. First impressions of the Hammer are excellent. The machine came in perfect condition, and everything is really high quality. Beds and fence are perfectly flat or as close as I can measure. The best of any machine I've purchased so far. The most time was spent getting the 800lb machine off of the pallet and onto some great lake casters so I could move it around easily. The last thing I did was try to joint and plane a 8/4in piece of stock square and I got near perfect results without having to tweak anything.

My other choice was the 12in minimax but I really wanted the byrd head. I think byrd might offer a head for the minimax that you'd have to install yourself.

~mark
Mark, thanks for the feedback. I'll need to check this out, dont really know if my budget will allow this. One question on the casters, did you pry up each corner to slip the caster underneath that corner or was it some other way.
Vijay

[Mark Carlson]

I pushed the jointer, so it was hanging off the pallet by 6in or so, and then used a floor jack, to lift it until I could get my drill under it. Drilled holes, installed casters. Kept pushing the jointer off the pallet, placing two by fours, underneath until it was off the pallet, and then jacked up the other side. Then it was a matter of removig the two by fours slowly until the jointer was resting on the casters.

[sunny nic]

Ryan, that's an interesting workflow. I prefer to rip first, for 2 reasons:

1) Narrowing a cupped board generally reduces the amount of face jointing required. Face jointing an 8" board with a 1/8" cup means I have to thin the board at least 1/8" on the jointer. If I rip that same board into 3 strips, the cupping on the narrower boards will be significantly reduced.

2) I find that when I rip a board after it has been straightened/flattened it often moves out of square in one or both directions. At that point the boards are useless for that project.

The workflow I prefer is edge joint, rip, edge joint, face joint, plane
yup, rip first would be the way to go.

[Curt Harms]

I'm not familiar with the configuration of the combination machines, but an ordinary jointer can face plane stock up to just under twice the cutterhead width, by flipping the work end for end after each pass. Trust me, it's not difficult and it works fine for flattening one face of a board before it goes through the planer, and it's a good bit simpler than building a planer sled.

I've heard of that procedure, Frank. I tried it; maybe I did it wrong but I just wasn't happy with the finished product. For me having one machine taking up space instead of two and not having a screaming lunchbox planer in a basement shop was worth it.

[Frank Drew]

The point I was trying to make is that the wider the stock, the more likely you are to face joint off more thickness than if the planks were narrower. Scott, no question, sometimes the board is too cupped to salvage the thickness you need full width and you have to rip it into narrower lengths first; and if the board is in wind, often you're simply out of luck.


I've heard of that procedure, Frank. I tried it; maybe I did it wrong but I just wasn't happy with the finished product. You certainly won't get a finished surface, it'll be uneven in places and won't look at all like it just came out of your thickness planer, but you can get a flat enough reference surface to go face down on your planer bed to machine the other surface parallel (then you'll have to turn the board over to run the face-jointed surface to clean it up.)

[David Hostetler]

I have to assume that you are asking about this from a business perspective, I just can't see a home hobby woodworker being able to justify the space, infrastructure (electrical) requirements, and cost of such large high end machines. I guess it's possible, but the analogy of buying a Ferrari to run to the corner Circle K is very appropriate.

So the question for you would be, what are you planning on doing with it... What is your budget in terms of space, power, and money like? Are you actually going to face joint 20" wide stock?

For my home / hobby workshop I am doing quite nicely with a 13" lunch box planer, a 6" bench top jointer, and I am in the process of building a 1HP 24" thickness sander. (have the discs for the drum cut out, need to clue them, and true them up on the lathe)... Any greater width and I am taking out the #5, and presently looking for a good #7 bench plane to true up wide stock...

[ron ogle]

I would be leary of Powermatic. I have 8 inch planer with Byrd cutterhead. Cutterhead is great but it looks like the company that bought out Powermatic is just using their name to sell far east machines on the same level as Grizzly for twice the price.

[Ray DuBose]

Ray, did you do the Byrd conversion yourself or did you get it that way from Hammer? I am in the market for a 12 inch J/P so would appreciate all details including costs.
Thank you.
Vijay

No I had Hammer add the Byrd Head. They could put the head on for me cheaper than I could buy the head from Byrd so it was a no brainer. My Total Shipped to my Door with Byrd Cutter installed and a Mobility Kit was $4223.19