Lets talk about dog holes

[Pat Barry]

I have seen lots of great looking benches here on this website and am trying to learn so today my question relates to the dogholes, Previously I asked and the consensus opinion was the plain old 3/4" dia holes were the way to go. Now the question is how to place them. What are the rules or best practices related to the row of dog holes down the length of the bench. Is a row of holes 6 inches away from the edge too far to be useful? Is it better to have them be closer to the edge? What is the biggest driver in placing the holes? Any ideas and logic behind them would be appreciated.

[Michael Peet]

Hi Pat,

I went through this when designing mine. Planing closer to the edge is easier for me, so I put them about 2" in. I think I read once that Schwarz recommended about 4" in, so you could clamp at the center of an 8" wide board. Just be aware of where your legs attach to the top so you don't inadvertently place a hole right over one, however some have done this intentionally with a horizontal hole bored out of the front of the leg so you can get a finger in there to push the dog up (see Jim Kirkpatrick's build thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?143323-My-Benchcrafted-Roubo-Workbench-Build)).

Mike

[Andrew Gibson]

I find that the closer to the edge the better. Mine are centered about 2.5" away from the front edge of the bench currently. When working on narrow stock I find myself wishing the holes were closer to the edge, espically for running groves with a plow plane or when using other fenced tools like a rabbet plane. My first bench had holes at 6" or so from the edge. It was not ideal for plaining... but I did not do a lot of hand work when I built it.

At this point my ideal bench would have square dog holes at about 1.5" from the edge of the bench and 3/4 holdfast holes where needed.

[Jim Paulson]

I find this an interesting thread. Are you guys looking at this as holes for just a holdfast?

My question is do you have a end/tail vise? Because if you do, whether the vise includes a dog or whether you put one in the wood attached to the jaws, that to me would determine the distance from the front edge. I have a bench that I equipped with one vise on the front and some of the dog holes I will drill will be perpendicular to the front of the bench and also in line with the vise dog.

Since I don't have a tail/end vise, the holes I drill along the length of the bench are for the holdfast. But I am following you on the suggestions, so far we are talking 2-2 1/2" to 4" from the edge as being the target. Since I just got my holdfast from TFWW, this conversation is timely.

Jim

[Mike Siemsen]

I would think the dog holes would need to line up with your tail vise dog. Closer to the edge is typically better.
Holdfast holes are a different story. There you don't need them any closer together then the diameter of the "swing" of the holdfast around it's center (hole). I like one next to where I chop dovetail waste. The nice thing about holdfast holes is you can auger them in as needed.

[Russell Sansom]

1" for me.

[Johnny Kleso]

I like mine about 4+ inchs in as I like to lean my hip against the bench...

Spacing has to due with how much your tail vise opens and closes and how much you want to open and close it to clamp differnt leagnt boards.. I'd choose 6"-8" even if you have 12" travel in tail vise..

Also note you want a double hole just infront of your front vise as a planing stop as show on my website > My Projects> Workbench> bottom of page> David Charlesworth's Articles with illustrations

[Joe O'Leary]

I believe Chris Swartz (my bench guru) now suggests about 2 1/2 in. from the front edge if, like Andrew, you use a lot of fenced hand planes. Otherwise I'd go 5 to 6 in. On spacing, chris uses about 3 1/2 in. This isn't critical either. As Johnny said, how much do you want to crank your vise? If you space at 6" you can always go back and make it 3!

[Matt Ranum]

When I made this bench I used a vice with a pop up dog as a tail vice. The first hole was as close to the vice as I could put it due to the vice hardware underneath. They are located 8" in from the edge if I recall. Its comfortable at that distance and works well for what I do.

186941

[Chris Fournier]

As has been mentioned by Mike, your dog hole location is a function of your tail vise design. Pick your tail vise and then you can start to think about where you want your dog holes. I have a "Michael Fortune" style tail vise and like Russell's bench my dog holes are about 1" from the front of my bench. I have a second row of dog holes with the same spacing about 12" behind this front row, this allows me to secure wider stock and panels.

No matter how many dog holes you have in your bench top the good ol' clamps come out at some point!

[Jim Neeley]

I'm not trying to commandeer this thread but what do people use here to drill that many holes? I know this sounds strange but following the above spacing a 3'x7' top would have about 11 x 24 holes. With a 4" thick top, the 264 holes equate to about 88' of 3/4" hole in hard maple. I understand that there are many purists (and those young athletes) here who would find boring that manu holes fun but it'd require all of my shop time for quite a long time (not to mention the recovery time! <g>).

I've considered auger bits but the ones I've seen are recommended for soft wood (some ?Lee Valley?) indicating they won't hold up to cutting much hardwood.

One option is to use a plunge router with a 3/4" bit.

Another is to use a 3/4" twist drill.

Another is a forstner though holding it perpendicular to the top may be an issue?

Experiences welcome.. <g>

[Chris Fournier]

I'm not a fan of round dog holes which is not to say that they don't work! I have always gone with rectangular dog holes that I machined prior to glueing up my benches. Takes a bit of time with the dado blade and router but there's no aching triceps in the morning.

[Don Dorn]

Mine are also 4" on center, but the front holes are a mere 1.5" away from the front. I've never regretted as I use allot of combination planes and I need the smaller width boards to be able to hang over the edge slightly so the fence of the combo plane can ride against it. The second row is 10" back from the front also 4" on center - this corresponds with the holes on the tail vise chop. For wide boards, I just set up a plane stop but it is also nice to be able to clamp round edges and tops with four dogs. The front vise is a leg vise. I like the setup enough that if/when I build a new top, I'll do the same with dog holes and tail vise, but would nix the leg vise and go to a quick release with a good chop on the front too.

[Pat Barry]

What I'm working on is starting to look a lot like the top Matt Ranum has pictured with the woodworkers vise (Rockler 7 inch quick release model) mounted at about the same position. I was planning to put 3/4" holes 6 inch on center and was wondering if the y should be centered on the vise, which would put them approx 5 inch back from the front edge. I could possibly offset the holes toward the front, off the centerline of the vise, maybe by a couple inches - not sure if this would play havoc with the vise or not. I was planning to use a Forstner bit to drill the holes (power tools you know), and wasn't going to put in lots of holes other than the single row - to start with anyway. I figured maybe just a couple holes on another line approx midway back on the benchtop (approx 12 inches from the front edge) and that these would provide an anchor point for a planing stop in that direction. I hadn't planned on a leg vise just yet - figuring I could clamp what I need to the top, legs, etc. Anyway, I really liike to hear the pro's and con's of each idea. Thanks for the feedback so far.

[Chris Griggs]

I'm with Andrew et. al. I think the closer to the edge the better. My bench has them 2" from the edge and if I could have I would have put them even closer. I guess if you know that you'll never use a fenced plane then it doesn't really matter but closer to the edge has the potential to make things easier if you ever do.

Regarding end vices with . The row does not need to be in line with the dead center on the vise. The closer one is to the center the less risk there is of racking, but you can definitely offset the dog and still get plenty of clamping pressure. The dog hole in my vise chop is about 2" off the center screw and I have had zero problems with racking.

[Matt Ranum]

Pat- The first bench top I made I put a grid of holes covering the whole top in a 6 x 6 pattern. It worked well in some respects in that I made a series of "blocks" with 3/4" dowel rods that would match up with the holes in either a horizontal or vertical. I thought of making 2 rows of dog holes to give the same effect and use a "block" that would cover the 2 rows and give me a decent sized stop block. I decided to go with the single row and have used it numerous times with my brass 3/4" dogs with no issues. I just figured I could add them later if need be.

[Jim Koepke]

I know this sounds strange but following the above spacing a 3'x7' top would have about 11 x 24 holes. With a 4" thick top, the 264 holes equate to about 88' of 3/4" hole in hard maple.

That is strange. Not much reason for more than a couple of rows of dog holes on the top of a bench. If one is using a wagon vise, then only one row for the tail vise. My tail vise has two holes, so there are two rows of dog holes. Even with an 8' bench there there would be less than 40 holes.

I am not young and athletic. With a 16" swing brace I bet drilling 40 holes even in 4" thick hard maple could be done in an afternoon. A properly sharpened bit can make a lot of difference in how much effort is needed.

With 264 holes you would have a bench that looked like Swiss cheese or something that suffered through a sustained attack by flock of woodpeckers.

jtk

[Frank Drew]

That is strange. Not much reason for more than a couple of rows of dog holes on the top of a bench.
With 264 holes you would have a bench that looked like Swiss cheese or something that suffered through a sustained attack by flock of woodpeckers.



What Jim said. Using my bench full time for over two decades I really never needed more than my single row of (rectangular) dog holes, which line up with the dog holes in the end vise and were about an inch in from the front. I set them out and cut them as Chris described.

I suppose I could have put in some holes here and there for holdfasts, but the need never presented itself, holding the work was never much of a problem.

[Dave Anderson NH]

To Jim Nealey,

When it came time to drill the 3/" dog holes for my 3.125" thick benchtop I started with and electric drill and a3/4" brad point bit. After 3 or 4 holes I gave up. I was a lot of work and the holes went very slowly with my cordless drill. I ended up grabbing my brace with the largest swing and a 12/16ths Russell Jennings bit and drilled thee rest of the holes without difficulty. Not only was the brace and bit easier, it was quicker for each hole too. The icing on the cake was the better quality of the surface on the inside of the holes.

[Jim Neeley]

Thanks, Jim (Koepke). What I thought I was hearing didn't sound valid. I can see the value of keeping the hole spacing down perpendicular to the vise to avoid racking and minimize setup time but I'm glad to know I was misinterpreting that spacing to apply in both the X and Y-axis.

I like the woodpecker analogy... I was thinking of the worlds most expensive pegboard and hoping no one would recommend painting the tool outlines on the board!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Jim Neeley]

Hmmm, Dave... Now that *would* require adding a brace and some bits to my tool arsenal, *wouldn't* it!! :D

[Joe O'Leary]

Auger bits work well in powered drills. Keep the RPM down. They clear chips better than Forstners in deep holes.

Don't know how good the Irwins are. They have a new "quatro" bit that looks interesting and I plan to try it.

[Jim Koepke]

To add a bit to my previous post…

My spacing would be based on the range of my tail vise. Likewise for the face vise if dog holes were wanted to accommodate it. If the vise only opens 8", then the holes would likely be set to 6" from the vise dog and every 6" after that.

A pilot hole of approximately 1/16 - 3/32" would be drilled through from the top if possible. Then the auger would be started from the bottom for only about an inch of drilling. When all the holes are started, then the top would be flipped and finished from the top to meet the bores started on the bottom. With a sharp bit, this would leave the best finish on both sides of the bore.

jtk

[Erik France]

I didn't have a 3/4" bit for my brace when I was doing my bench. I found a fairly inexpensive 3/4" spiral at woodcraft. It was only an inch and a half long though. I started my dogholes with the plunge router and finished them off with a forstner in a handheld drill. By using the router the holes were guaranteed perpendicular and they were cut really clean. A piece of scrap held underneath with a spreader on a box helped to tame any blowout from drilling.

I did a row of holes in line with my left front face vice that were fairly closely spaced. I did another row along the front edge corresponding to the dog on my end vice, they ended up being 4 3/8" away from the front. I intended to have them spaced 5 3/4" apart. That worked well with my bench length and legs. I ended up with 11 1/2" spacing for now though. Instead of drilling holes everywhere I spaced them out and waited to see where I really need additional holes. I eventually added another row of holes across the middle, still with the wide spacing. It's working out fairly well, I use a wonder dog at times to make up for some gaps.

There's a couple more dog holes that need to be drilled. I've been marking the bench at locations where a doghole would have been useful during projects. The first mark is a pencil circle, if that location comes up again it'll get a pencil X inside. I've got a couple circles with multiple lines now, and a few circles to be erased.

[Jerome Hanby]

I'm not a fan of round dog holes which is not to say that they don't work! I have always gone with rectangular dog holes that I machined prior to glueing up my benches. Takes a bit of time with the dado blade and router but there's no aching triceps in the morning.
Sorry if this is a slight hijack, I recall reading in Sam Allen's workbench book a bit about round dog holes making is easy to build bench accessories that have pegs that fit the dog holes. Anyone using gadgets that mount like that?

[Dave Anderson NH]

Absolutely Jerome. For years before Chris Schwarz's bench books came out, Sam Allen's book was the only one that actually talked about how to build and what was necessary in a bench. It was not a great seller because of the few photos and the relaince on diagrams. I've built and used most of the Sam Allen fixtures. They all work though the raised dogs with the screws sticking out don't work well and are pain to use. I finally ended up throwing mine out. He had some great ideas and some of them I use almost every time I use the bench.

[Mitch Barker]

I'm not trying to commandeer this thread but what do people use here to drill that many holes? <g>

I tried auger, twist, forstner and paddle bits. By far, the best was the paddle bit. Just stop before breaking through, and complete the hole from the bottom. I used a "port align" to keep the holes straight. I mounted the base of the portalign to a piece of plywood, and attached a cleat to the bottom of the board to ensure all holes were the same distance from the edge.

Btw: paddle bits are easy to sharpen.

[Pat Barry]

Mitch, what type of wood were you drilling? I have ash. Wondering if that will drill OK with the paddle bits? Not really looking forward to a forstner bit for this

[Mitch Barker]

The top was 2" maple glued to 3/4 mdf. Forsner bits were slow and needed considerable down force. Auger bits grabbed firm and nearly dislocated my shoulder ;-). I bought a new set of Irwin auger bits from HD. I mispoke earlier, I did not try a twist bit. My guess is that twist bits would also require a lot of torque.

You'll be surprised by how fast and clean the paddle bits are.

[Joe O'Leary]

By paddle bits, do you mean spade bits? The augers I used did not have a screw tip, as it sounds like the Irwins have, but rather a non-threaded pyramid tip.
Also. after the first 1/2", the diameter is slightly reduced so that the only function is chip clearing.

[Trey Palmer]

Great thread. I've put way too much thought into this. I'm extremely prone to overcomplicating things.

But, being a neophyte, I'm trying to force myself to keep it simple. And that helped me eliminate square dog holes or a fancy tail vise from the menu. Especially since I don't even have a bench, until I get this one so I can work on it. Which is close -- possibly this weekend. :-)

While it doesn't look quite the same as any other bench I've seen, mine ends up working most like a Nicholson bench. On this type of bench it seems to me the ability to use holdfasts in the front apron is the "key feature", and tail vises tend to be more rudimentary or even omitted.

Nevertheless I do plan to bore in a front strip of dog holes, round ones that I can also use holdfasts in. I bought a Veritas wonder dog, and figure that later I could retrofit a wagon vise if desired.

I have already figured out I like to be "over" the work when planing and not have to "reach" to it, and I use fenced planes a lot. So with a 1.5" front apron I expect mine to be centered 2 to 2 1/4" off the front edge.

[Frank Drew]

Here's at least one advantage to having your dog holes (in other words, the centerline of your holding action) closer to the front edge of your benchtop rather than several inches inboard: You might not be able to clamp a narrow board with dogs, particularly if to do whatever you're doing you have the board overhanging the front edge of your bench.

[David Keller NC]

Hey Guys - Timing here could not be more fortuitous - Lee Valley's latest newsletter has a discussion of sinking 3/4" dog holes with a router, jig, and followed up with a drill bit. I used a similar jig on my last bench, though I used a portable electric drill and one of Lee-Valley's 3/4 super brad points:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/newsletters/Woodworking/5/4/newsletter.htm