Pocket Screws Over Time

[Joe Angrisani]

My Dad just sent me a Kreg kit. Guess he saw the gadget guys on Woodsmith Shop or something. I have a question regarding the long-term results of using pockets screws:

How does the joint hold up over time, specifically with regards to expansion and contraction over the seasons? I've never had any type of "corner brace", removable "knock-down type" screw-mounted table legs that stayed tight over the years. After a year, or two at most, I have to tighten the leg attachment screws slightly. They appear to loosen slightly with the drying part of the year, then they stay loose.

I realize the pocket screws are in the wood in an orientation that minimizes wood movement, but there is still some movement in all planes. It would seem to me that pocket screw construction will also loosen slightly over time, just like knock-down legs. What have you folks found a few years down the road after construction?

[Lee Schierer]

I've not noted any loosening over time, you don't get much wood movement in the grip length of the screw.

[jonathan eagle]

You will use glue as well.

[Joe Angrisani]

I've not noted any loosening over time, you don't get much wood movement in the grip length of the screw.

I guess that's true. But the legs I'm refering to only have about 3/4" of hanger bolt thread between nut/washer and leg (where it is actually passing through the 45-degree support plate).

[Joe Angrisani]

You will use glue as well.

Yea, but I still don't count on end grain glue doing all that much in a butt joint. Do you?

[Brian Effinger]

My grandmother had store bought end & coffee tables that were from the 60's (or maybe earlier - I know they are definitely older than me) that were put together with pocket screws and they are still tight, even after moving with her a few times, a trip up to Buffalo to live with me for several years, and a trip back to Rochester to my brother's house, where they still reside.

[William Hamilton]

The idea of using them bothers me, just from an aesthetic or purist standpoint.. I'm probably misguided, but I plan on trying never to use them

[keith micinski]

I love pocket screws and don't see any problem with using them in hidden areas. As far as being a purist unless you are going strictly windmill power and hand tools you have already broke the rules. I quit using glue on butt joints with the screws because like you I figure the end grain glue is doing almost nothing in the way of holding power and just created more clean up. I am probasbly only 5 or 6 years into pocket screws but so far no issues.

[Lee Ludden]

I was reading an article on fastener loosening. One of the reasons they get loose is due to movement of the two mating pieces. While end grain is not a very strong joint in itself, the glue would tend to reinforce the mechanical connection, helping prevent the fastener from loosening which makes the over all joint longer lasting.

I glue all of my pocket screw joints.

[keith micinski]

I agree it probably helps a little but my hope is that it doesn't help enough to matter. I guess only time will tell.

[Don Morris]

Joe,

If it's the aesthetics of them, sure, use M & T or whatever. My LOML didn't like the idea (of those "Holes") at first too. Her father was a cabinet maker (before when pocket screws were perfected). But on cabinets or furniture where the joint is absolutely out of sight, there is nothing wrong with pocket screws. I've written before, I bought a piece of high end furniture (Stickley) recently which cost me a pretty penny. When moving it into place I noticed a couple of the out of normal sight joints were done with pocket screws. I'll bet Stickley wouldn't use them if they thought their reputation would suffer because of poor construction. After I showed them to LOML, she now feels somewhat differently.

[glenn bradley]

As Brian observes, I have very old furniture inherited from family that I found pocket-hole construction in. Everything is still tight but they only hold trim or provide a mechanical assist to a tongue and groove mating in my case. Dad has drawers out of BB ply and pocket-hole/glued butt joints. We happened to be moving things around in his shop yesterday and I had to pull the drawers out of the carcass. All still tight despite a heavy load and lots of use. I personally use PH for convenience in utility items but very, very, very rarely in furniture pieces. Its a personal choice, not a physical issue.

[Phil Thien]

Gotta use glue. End grain has gotten a bum rap when it comes to glue and joints. I've assembled face frames with glue and pocket screws, then tested to failure after removing the screws. The glue holds better than you'd think. Many times the joint breaks in the wood of the stile, meaning the glue joint is stronger than the wood itself.

Just make sure you apply some glue to the end grain, wait a minute or two, and then apply a little more glue. That guarantees the glue doesn't disappear into the end-grain (which is very absorbent).

In terms of long-term holding power, well, I've only been using them a year or so, I don't have any data yet.

[Jim Becker]

I employ pocket screws for convenience and speed of assembly. When I feel that the screw and glue alone isn't enough to stand the test of time, I'll put in glue blocks after the fact to reinforce the joint. Rarely have I felt the need to do that, however.

[jonathan eagle]

There was an issue in fine woodworking where they compared joint strength. They actually do the same testing every few years. They do MT, biscuits etc. Pockets were pretty strong as I recall. Obviously for face frames, there is little force applied to the joint in any case. You can build up a face frame in short order and you don't have to clamp afterwards. These jigs are great. By the way, I've pulled apart a glued joint and it ripped end grain didn't break, it pulled the fibers out of the other side, if you know what I am saying. This is because you normally drill your holes into the end grain piece.

[Joe Angrisani]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the input and experiences. I'm not opposed to the use of pocket screws at all. My only thoughts concerned loosening-up over time.

[Gregory King]

Reminds me that I should find a project so that I can use my Kreg kit that I bought 4 years ago. I did a couple of test ones when I first bought it and then tucked it in my storage cabinets. I'm amazed at the design of the holding power of the screws. With glue, virtually as close to perfect as one will ever achieve. Why did I not invent this myself?

[Cody Colston]

Why did I not invent this myself?

You would had to have gotten up pretty early. The ancient Egyptians actually used pocket holes with glued-in dowels to join wood totether. :)

[scott vroom]

I use pocket hole screws for cabinet face frame joinery.....would never consider using any other method. There are studies out there comparing strength/relibility of various joinery methods including pocket screws.

Joinery asthetics are a subjective bias and every woodworker is free to choose whatever method he/she is comfortable with. I wouldn't let others opinions on the asthetic suitability of pocket hole screws sway you.

[Joe Scharle]

I built this shop cabinet around 4 years ago. It's on casters, bottom drawer holds 2 3hp routers. I built it as an experiment so, not a drop of glue anywhere.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/970/Rolling_Shop_Box.JPG

[Phil Maddox]

I concur with Phil - end grain joints get a bum rap - they have a lot more strength than you might think. I wouldn't design for JUST a butt joint with end grain but pocket screws and glue is very strong

[Neal Clayton]

There was an issue in fine woodworking where they compared joint strength. They actually do the same testing every few years. They do MT, biscuits etc. Pockets were pretty strong as I recall. Obviously for face frames, there is little force applied to the joint in any case. You can build up a face frame in short order and you don't have to clamp afterwards. These jigs are great. By the way, I've pulled apart a glued joint and it ripped end grain didn't break, it pulled the fibers out of the other side, if you know what I am saying. This is because you normally drill your holes into the end grain piece.

such tests, imo, are inherently flawed.

i can show you some window levers/pulls that were bent as much as 1/8" over a span of a century or so. we're talking solid brass, as much as 1/4 to 3/8 thick, and only 3 or so inches long, typically. some even start to crack under the continued stress when they can't flex any further.

no wood joint will ever be as strong as solid cast metal. yet even solid cast metal will fail at certain points of pressure and stress.

the whole point of better joints is not how strong they are before they break, it's how gracefully they fail, how repairable those joint failures are, and if repairable, how valuable is something to make it worth repairing. something put together with pocket screws isn't worth repairing. you throw it away.

you can get printing shops to print digital pictures on canvas too. or, perhaps a painter painted the same scene by hand. which is worth more? which is worth having professionally touched up decades later, and which just gets tossed and replaced?

maybe it's just me, but all of the work i do on my own house is done to the same standards that it was originally done to over a century ago. that means all joints in windows and doors and cabinet faces and what not are properly mortised. that means no caulk, even if it's going to be painted. that means glue is for making pretty joint lines, not for structural integrity. will it matter to the average person? probably not, but it matters to me, and it'll matter to someone else when that stuff i built is still here after another 100 years. that's what some piece of art or architecture's value is defined by, its quality. and i don't see how building things with pocket screws gives me any quality. seems like a waste of time, i can buy things built with pocket screws at wal mart, i don't need to go to the trouble of building them myself.

[Terry Wawro]

Joe,

I know what you mean. We have two end tables and a coffee table that have the legs mounted as you described. They work themselves loose ever couple of year or so. Yet, I've been using pocket screws for four or five years and all the joints with them are still tight. Some with glue, some without. Strange but true. Must be some magic in that angle.

[David Larsen]

I would limit there use when it comes to something that could move or be subject to stresses or I would find a way to reinforce the joint. The pocket screws have a place, but don't have to be used for everything.

I see there is a die-hard restoration post. If it wasn't built with pocket screws 100 years ago, then I wouldn't put them in now, but if I were building an heirloom piece I wouldn't have a problem using pocket screws as long as they were used appropriately and ended up covered by trim (not plugged).

I don't see anything wrong with them, but I wouldn't use them everywhere like some people.

[William Hamilton]

perhaps it's my thinking that as a newbie, I don't want to jump and take the easier way out at first. I'd rather learn the basics and different ways of doing things before using pocket screws. -ps- my windmill powered laptop is holding up

[Charles McKinley]

I built a set of shelves for my bathroom a long time ago (7+ years) based on an article from "Fine Homebuilding" (man did that author get flamed) using only pocket hole screws. and it is holding up fine. I will move it when I leave unless the people buying the house want it. The point of the article was that a very nice set of shelves could be made quickly.

[Neal Clayton]

well my opinions probably border on political so the mods can smite me for that if they want, but yeah, i would be one of the ones to rip that guy too. that has no place in a publication called "fine home building".

the problem is people who read such things will think that's what quality is. the typical homeowner might know from being told that certain ways are better than others but they don't know why. it's up to people who do skilled trades for a living to tell those people why, and thus justify their prices and their business to their customers.

when their customers can go get a magazine at home depot that says "look here pocket screws are good enough, fine home building says so", then some guy building cabinets for a living just lost a potential customer, all for the sake of trying to trick the average homeowner into thinking that those ikea cabinets are luxury items.

it's not enough that the lumbering corporate gorilla has managed to completely eliminate the hardware stores, a good bit of the tool companies, and local millwork shops. they need ads for cheap cabinetry disguised as architectural journalism too? kinda like kicking a dead dog.

[John Coloccia]

Next we'll be saying that Dominos and dowels are bad. Oh wait, we already do say that.

BAH.

I say use whatever you want, Joe, and let the work speak for itself. I don't have a use for pocket screws, but I've played with them out of curiosity and they make a fine joint.

[Larry Edgerton]

well my opinions probably border on political so the mods can smite me for that if they want, but yeah, i would be one of the ones to rip that guy too. that has no place in a publication called "fine home building".

the problem is people who read such things will think that's what quality is. the typical homeowner might know from being told that certain ways are better than others but they don't know why. it's up to people who do skilled trades for a living to tell those people why, and thus justify their prices and their business to their customers.

when their customers can go get a magazine at home depot that says "look here pocket screws are good enough, fine home building says so", then some guy building cabinets for a living just lost a potential customer, all for the sake of trying to trick the average homeowner into thinking that those ikea cabinets are luxury items.

it's not enough that the lumbering corporate gorilla has managed to completely eliminate the hardware stores, a good bit of the tool companies, and local millwork shops. they need ads for cheap cabinetry disguised as architectural journalism too? kinda like kicking a dead dog.

I agree, that is it in a nutshell. The very idea of quality is under seige by conglomerates that could give a rats heiney about such things, but in order to further sales it is in their best interest to teach people that what they make/sell is quality. But you are not going to win this battle, you don't have enough time or money.

[Joe Angrisani]

My original question was one of "loosening up over time". Not sure why the ethics of pocket screws came into play, but a dozen+ posts sure ran with it.....

[keith micinski]

I was just thinking that same thing. There are a few hot button topics around here and apparently pocket screws has worked it's way into being one.

[jonathan eagle]

My original question was one of "loosening up over time". Not sure why the ethics of pocket screws came into play, but a dozen+ posts sure ran with it.....
Just ignore it. By the way, I think it was a very thoughtful gift you got from your Dad. Very impressed.

[scott vroom]

My original question was one of "loosening up over time". Not sure why the ethics of pocket screws came into play, but a dozen+ posts sure ran with it.....

Joe, EVERYTHING loosens up over time......my knee and shoulder joints remind me of that every day :(

[Jerry Olexa]

I use them always in cab construction where out of sight and always glue...Where xtra strength needed, I do hidden glue blocks at corners....Have had no problem over the years...

[Philip Rodriquez]

Joe,
I have had a pocket hole jig for years. While it doesn’t get a lot of use… it sure can be handy. Like others have said, I would not hesitate to use it if the joint will be hidden and it wouldn’t be subjected to a lot of stress.

[David Hostetler]

I had a pocket hole assembled set of end tables, coffee table, sofa and 2 chairs (all VERY rustic) that I dontated to Purple Heart this past spring when I finally tossed out the last piece of furniture I had with my ex... The furniture was fine, not even the slightest loosening.

[Tom Ewell]

25 some odd years ago I built my kitchen using nothing but joinery (M&T) for face frames.

I needed to rearrange some cabinets and add a few for a little remodel, used pockets for the face frames. Needless to say, I had the new face frames assembled and clamped up to the cases in the time it would have taken just to setup for M&T.

Surprisingly, aside from a slight difference in the patina of the finish, the new ones look and function just like the old ones.

I have some old cabinets in my shop that are well over 20 years old with pocketed face frames, the joints are fine.

[Matt Meiser]

I also built a set of end tables and a coffee table with pocket hole joinery. They are all still very solid after 7 years and there's no detectable loosening. The coffee table really takes a beating as my daughter plays around it so she's always sitting on it, leaning on it, etc. As far as end-grain joints, when I was building face frames for cabinets I discovered about an hour after assembly that I'd made the rails on one too wide because I'd used the face frame measurement no the rail measurement. No problem I thought--I'll just take out the PHS and knock the glue joints loose on one side and cut the extra 3" off. Wrong--the wood on the stiles tore out. That was just 1.125 sq in of glue surface at each joint.

[Rob Holcomb]

Joe, my post has nothing to do with pocket hole joinery as I have no knowledge and therefore no input but since you mentioned how you noticed that the topic had changed from whether pocket hole joinery will loosen up to the ethics of pocket hole joinery, I'll comment. In most forum posts, this happens and I rather enjoy it. Many times, I learn something about something that is posted that is completely off topic that I never thought of. It's like a 2 for 1 sale. I get the answer I was looking for and learn something else at the same time. Sometimes I learn many things! On the other hand, once in a blue moon, there is a question posted and none of the responses answers the question and that's ok too. The only problem I have is when I'm looking to purchase a tool and come here looking for which brand people like, I never get a definitive answer. Everyone has their favorites and I leave here and buy what I think I will like best and what will work best for me. So to get back on topic, Norm did a series on building kitchen cabinets and he used pocket hole joinery and glue. I can't imagine a Master Craftsman, would use that type of joinery if it had a high failure rate.

[Erik Christensen]

well when it comes to aesthetics - it's all in the eye of the beholder. I have built a few things where the easiest assembly was with exposed pocket holes - it took a tad more time to lay them out even and symmetrical and make sure to drill slowly to avoid any tear-out - I filled the holes with contrasting wood plugs you can get online and shaved flush with a plane. sand & finished as usual and the pocket holes became part of the design - I liked the final look and so does management.

to me they are like any of the joinery options - M&T, dowels, domino's, dado's, etc - depends on project & tooling at hand

[Neil Brooks]

Gotta use glue.

Agreed.

Glued and screwed (w/my Kreg jig) ... in the few places where I've used them ... they seem durable and appropriate.

They get a bad rap, but -- like most things -- I think there's a time and a place for pocket screws joinery.

[keith micinski]

I love when a post gets brought back from a long time ago and you read through it and realize you posted in it and don't remember any of it.

[Bryan Cramer]

Keep pocket screws for what they were made for - face frames. I follow this (and use glue) and I have had no problems. Problems might show up if they are used elsewere (joining aprons to table legs). Pocket screws are fast and great for face frames where extra strength comes from the face frame being gued to the cabinet.

[michael veach]

Agreed.

Glued and screwed (w/my Kreg jig) ... in the few places where I've used them ... they seem durable and appropriate.

They get a bad rap, but -- like most things -- I think there's a time and a place for pocket screws joinery.
+1 pocket screws can have a place even in fine furniture or cabinetry. But, I don't use them where they are visible.

[Lex Boegen]

Pocket screws are a fine technique when used appropriately. Sometimes I use pocket screws, sometimes biscuits, sometimes mortise and tenon. They have their place. If the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail. My own experience with Kreg pocket hole joinery has been positive, but I wouldn't use it just anywhere. If a joint is going to receive a lot of stress, then a mortise and tenon is probably your best choice. If it's not under stress and you can hide the pocket holes, then why not use them? IMHO, the more tools and techniques you have at your disposal, then the more choices you have for design and construction. There is no "one size fits all" tool or technique.