Gutted my WHOLE shop and looking for input to do it right this time!!

[Tim Morton]

I am starting over...from scratch. The majority of things should be put inside the 14x22 area and some things can spill out into the other side, I am trying to see if you guys can get a sense from the drawing ove what I'm up against.

1. In the middle you should be able to see 3 black small squares and a small rectangular light grey area. The black squares are 6x6 beams holding the house up (can't be moved and in the worst spots) The grey area above them is a wall that can be moved or removed. I am trying to get a feel for what you guys think in terms of work benchs along any of the walls? I am considering sticking the DC up between the temp wall and oil tank.

2. I would love to put my table saw someplace permanant and build around it, but with the beams in the way and all the tables I had against the far left wall I was always moving the saw. Tonight I ripped out everything and am starting over.

3. I am thinking about storage and adding over head cabinets to store hand tools and glues and fastners.

4 wood storage I think is going to move out to the garage to save space....but i would like to use some space to store some wood.

5. I have a jointer, miter saw , planer all on mobile bases that can be stored out of the main shop but I want a way to move them easily when I need them.

All suggestions would be welcome.

[Jim Becker]

Storage and the "tool coral" over towards the heater...keep the other area as open as possible for maximum flexibility. You don't have a lot of width, so that need to be considered. Permanent base cabinets on the wall could present a problem, but if they are necessary, be sure to keep the counter heights compatible with your tools for materal movement without hang-ups! You might do lumber storage along the immovable beams on the tank side since that's space that really can't be used from the other side.

[Tim Morton]

Thanks for the advice Jim, heres my thoughts and I will take some pictures once I clean up some wood scraps tomorrow night. One thing you cautioned me on was "base cabinets"...I'm not doing any base cabinets, In fact i have ripped out almost 30 feet of table top space i put in when we moved...I meant over head cabinets only.

Maximizing the space "outside' the 14x22 space is something i want to do. What should be inside the 14x22? I was planing on a bench against the back wall the one with the electrical panel on it). And putting a couple shallow cabinets hanging off the wall above this table. This would be my work bench, because I don't think I would have room for a bench in the center of the room. I was also planning on a second 6' table outside the main area to the right of the entrance door near the household storage area. I have a cubby type wall to tuck this table into. I would use this for a flat area to use for glue-ups and stuff. Does this seem like enough table top space? I was planning on a 4" drop down table that would be mounted on the long 22" wall but on hinges so I could open it up and use it as an outfeed table for my table saw. (still in the thinking about stage).....I will not plan on anything else on any walls inside the main area. I will also look into using the pillar area for wood storage, where should the DC go? This is kind of important to figure out because I need to lay out electrical outlets in the shop. For all practical purposes i have no outlets in there now. I need 220 for jointer and DC, and possibly TS, And I want to be laying out the outlets this weekend.

[Jim O'Dell]

A couple of questions...Is it possible to move the entrance door? How close are the stairs to the workshop door? I would put the door all the way to the left so that when the door is open, it is flat against the left wall, or to the right and either spin the door to open into the hall if possible, or go with a door that opens to the right. Or leave the existing door opening there, but open it up to a French Door. You could align the table saw up so that sheet goods when being cut could spill into the hall way temporarily.
If you want some permanent base cabinets for storage, I'd take the center wall out, and put them around the posts where the face is on the edge of the 14' wide room portion, and extend into the 12' wide room toward the oil burner. This will maximise the biggest space you have, although it would dimenish the smaller side. You could put some wood storage against the back side of the cabinets. You could also have some upper cabinets if needed. This doesn't address a need for an open work bench, but you could put one perpendicular to the bank of cabinets facing toward the wall with the entrance door. Or, (can you tell I'm writing and thinking at the same time?) have the base cabinets open on both sides for easy access, whichever side of the room you are in, and let the tops of the cabinets become your work bench. That way it would be uninterupted space. Is the household storage area actually walled off? or is this just a "roped off" area of the room? If walled off, the bench could go against that wall, or the bench could be the dividing fixture instead of a wall, you know, to keep dust off that stuff ;-).
Then you could play with your larger area and see where the different tools work best for you. Sounds like most of your bigger tools are mobile, so that should help a lot. I think your idea for DC/Cyclone placement is good, and might help cutting down some of the noise. Good luck!! Let us know how it goes. Jim.

edit: Ok, so I post and then see your reply to Jim B!! Scrap the base cabinets and work bench idea. I concur then to put the wood storage on the right side of the center wall. Maybe put peg board, or slatwall board on the other side of the wall, and be able to hang jigs, calibration tools, and other items that don't stick out into the room very far. But I still like the idea of the bench on the right side of the wall toward the oil burner. It would be a better, though somewhat small, space to do finish work a little further away from the majority of the dust. Just a thought. Jim

[Jerry Olexa]

Tim,are you allowing space to hang the Redsox and Patriot champions pennants?Also, did you notice Jim Becker's signature (helmet) sneaking up on you? :) :D
Seriously. its difficult to visualize your situation but the 6X6 posts are a factor you need to consider and "work around". I'm a big believer in mobility forALL my power tools including TS, BS, CMS, Planer, etc. In your case, its even more important. I think the job you are working on dictates the tools you'll be using most and sometimes you need to adjust with bigger stock for cutting angles, access,etc. When space is at a premium, flexibility to adjust/move is key. A wild idea that I use is to do all the "rough" work:TS cutting, planing, etc in a garage bay (easy access and open air 1/2 the year). The more precision jobs like routing, gluing, joints, assembly, etc are done in the basement shop. Anyway, IMHO . What do I know? I picked the Steelers..:D

[Tim Morton]

A couple of questions...Is it possible to move the entrance door? How close are the stairs to the workshop door? I would put the door all the way to the left so that when the door is open, it is flat against the left wall, or to the right and either spin the door to open into the hall if possible, or go with a door that opens to the right. Or leave the existing door opening there, but open it up to a French Door.

Its not really possible to move the entrance, and the wall that the door is on is seperates the shop from the finished basement side....I go through that door after going down a set of stairs and turning into a hallway to get into the shop.

[Norman Hitt]

Since you've already got suggestions Tim, I can only say, It's a real pity you can't just put in a steel pole or concrete column at each end of the 22' length in line with the existing support poles and put a steel I-beam across the top of them to hold up the house. You could then remove the gray wall & the existing support poles and have a "Completely Open Shop Area". "Wouldn't That be Loverly"????

Good luck Norm

[David Klug]

If your drawing is close to scale I like the I beam idea because it looks like a 12' I beam would support it. That way you would only have one post in the middle of the room. It probably be a bouger to put it in.

DK

[Tim Morton]

It's a real pity you can't just put in a steel pole or concrete column at each end of the 22' length in line with the existing support poles and put a steel I-beam across the top of them to hold up the house. You could then remove the gray wall & the existing support poles and have a "Completely Open Shop Area". "Wouldn't That be Loverly"????

Would be ideal, but the reality is I think it would be too expensive. I have toyed with the thought of moving them, but I would hope they were not just randomly placed down there.

[Tim Morton]

just some ideas here...reason for puttng the DC in the corner is i have plumbing
pipes all along that 22 foot wall where I could maybe "sister" the DC pipes too?

[Jim Becker]

Tim, I forgot to mention it in my original post, but consider using the french cleat system that WOOD Magazine incorporated into their Idea Shop #5. It would give you the ultimate in flexibility for moving things around like your upper cabinets, clamp racks, tool cabinets, etc. Since your "stripped", now is the time to do it! (I wish I could do that in my shop, but don't have the wall space due to all the windows and doors...)

BTW, the layout you show isn't too bad. Any way you can get the DC into the "other" area to keep the main room clear at that end?

[Tim Morton]

Any way you can get the DC into the "other" area to keep the main room clear at that end?

I will take a look at the french cleating, and yes I can put the DC to the right of the Oil burner( or any other place since I'm just getting started) tucked in against the wall. I was just trying to minimize long runs, both to save money and make the dust sucker more effiecient? Plus without a remote control yet, i still need to turn it on and off at the DC.

[Charlie Woods]

Tim:
What is the height above the CMS to the ceiling. Is there away to utilize the beams behind the CMS to make a lumber rack for long stock? I have worked in a number os scene shops where a rack was placed there so that materials for a single project were in easy reach as needed.
I don't know if this next item is helpful, but I have found that it works great for me in the scene shop for placement of hardware. The photos below ( sorry they are not that good!) are of several sections of an old library card file system that I found being stored in the schools warehouse. The drawers are just the right size for almost all of my hardware needs, especially long bolts. I will put rolling dollies under each stack so that I can move it around in the shop or on stage if I need to have access to the hardware. I have several different types so the size varies a little, within a range of 17"D x 24"H x 34"W This might be something to look at, to save cabinet space for tool storage. There might even be away to roll it under a table or work bench. I know that our school puts this kind of stuff on auction at least once a year, so checking local school auctions etc... might yield some left over.


Hope this helps

[Tim Morton]

Tim:
What is the height above the CMS to the ceiling. Is there away to utilize the beams behind the CMS to make a lumber rack for long stock? I have worked in a number os scene shops where a rack was placed there so that materials for a single project were in easy reach as needed.

I have 8' ceilings...nice idea :D I may switch the jointer with the miter saw, although they are both mobile. reason is I use the miter saw more frequently and to get the jointer closer to the bulhead where rough lumber would come in and closer to the DC if I move it to the right hand wall.

[Chris Padilla]

Tim,

Is this a basement shop? I don't see any windows and only one door...how do you get lumber in there?

[Tim Morton]

Is this a basement shop? I don't see any windows and only one door...how do you get lumber in there?


Yes it is a basement shop. Up in the upper right hand corner there is a "bulhead" entry door and stairs that lead up to my garage. This lets me carry down 4x8 sheetgoods fairly easily. And no i have no windows.... :mad: The black outler lines of the drawing represent cement walls for the most part, except the ones leading into the shop by the hallway..those are framed walls.

[Bart Leetch]

I'd find a builder to give you a bid & listen to what he's going to do to put the beam in. You can rent the jacks & put the beam in your self.

I guess I'm not afraid of doing this because I helped my Dad move a house & also jack to take the weight off & install beams so we could dig under our house & make a basement.

I would encourage you the it really isn't as hard as you think to do this. It shouldn't cost you anything besides the materials & equipment rental.

This is really an inexpensive fix that you won't regret doing.

[Frank Pellow]

I will take a look at the french cleating, and yes I can put the DC to the right of the Oil burner( or any other place since I'm just getting started) tucked in against the wall. I was just trying to minimize long runs, both to save money and make the dust sucker more effiecient? Plus without a remote control yet, i still need to turn it on and off at the DC.
I plan to use French cleating when I start to construct wall cabinets.

Re the lack of remote control, my dust controller can be turned on and off with 4-way switches that I have in 3 appropriate places in the shop. Rob Russell described some different ways of doing this in the thread: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8251

[Frank Pellow]

I'd find a builder to give you a bid & listen to what he's going to do to put the beam in. You can rent the jacks & put the beam in your self.

I guess I'm not afraid of doing this because I helped my Dad move a house & also jack to take the weight off & install beams so we could dig under our house & make a basement.

I would encourage you the it really isn't as hard as you think to do this. It shouldn't cost you anything besides the materials & equipment rental.

This is really an inexpensive fix that you won't regret doing.
I'm with Bart on this. I helped a friend do just about the same thing a few years ago and it turned out to be much easier that we had anticipted.

[Tim Morton]

I'd find a builder to give you a bid & listen to what he's going to do to put the beam in. You can rent the jacks & put the beam in your self.


It might be easier than I think to do this. where the posts are is a run of 4 2x10's running the whole span, and open on both faces. Might be as easy as 2 pieces of steel and some really heavy bolts and then see if I could eliminate as many of them as possible. But still I would think it would get to be real money for the steel. I have a friend who is a builder, maybe it would be worth a call to him. He would not charge me his labor for it.

[Brian Hale]

My thinking might be a little different....

....Jointer and planer over next to the oil burner.
...Tablesaw where it is but setup so you're feeding from the end where the breaker box is. Having your back to a door while working at the TS is dangerous. DAMHIKT
...Consider hanging the CMS on the wall above the extension table of the TS but shifted towards the breaker box. The space above the extension table most often doesn't get used.
...DC next to the oil tank. This is a short wiring run from the breaker box and one trunk line can run from the DC along the posts with branches going to the TS/CMS on one side and the jointer/planer on the other.
...Lumber storage next to the entry hallway door (sheet goods) and over the oil tank (hardwoods)
...Turn the area between the posts into a shelving unit
...Consider a mobile table for the TS outfeed table

My shop is very similar to yours, post and all (just flipped in both directions) and i'll redoing it as soo as i get this last project done so i'm real interested in what you come with.
Have Fun !!!
Brian :)

[Bart Leetch]

"It might be easier than I think to do this. where the posts are is a run of 4 2x10's running the whole span, and open on both faces. Might be as easy as 2 pieces of steel and some really heavy bolts and then see if I could eliminate as many of them as possible. But still I would think it would get to be real money for the steel. I have a friend who is a builder, maybe it would be worth a call to him. He would not charge me his labor for it."

Go for it Tim you won't regret it. :D

[Rob Russell]

My brother ripped out a few lolly columns from his basement and replaced it with a single carrying beam. He's a civil engineer and calculated that he needed a steel I-beam to carry the load. They are happy not having the columns in the way now, but it definitely wasn't as simple as just bolting some steel plates to the sides of the 2x10's.

My thoughts on shop layout ...
Move the CMS to the wall where the jointer is and setup a long wall of workbench and overhead storage. Just leave enough clearance in front of your electrical panel.
Use the space in front of your bulkhead door as storage for the jointer and planer. When you want to use them or get lumber down, move the machines out into the main part of the shop.
Plan for space for a drill press. Where the planer is right now would be a good location.
Run DC for the saw and jointer/planer out to the middle of the shop with a drop down to hook up the jointer and planer when you roll them out from the bulkhead doorway.


Rob

[Chris Padilla]

Tim,

Call your builder buddy; I'm sure you can work this out; it absolutely will be worth it even if it costs a bit more than you want to spend. Look into gluelams; they might work, too, instead of a steel I-beam. With today's technology, I'm sure you have a lot of options. Don't rush into this without thoroughly exploring your options for getting rid of the 6x6s.

[Tim Morton]

OK...heres another layout..I like it alot. I have tried to take everyones advice and it was all great advice. I appreciate everything that is here and I will read it over several times along with other peoples threads on shops...I think Frank has one as does jim and chris and others.

The one thing I have decided is that the poles will stay for now.I know it would be nice to lose them, but lppking at it tonight its not as open as i thought..I have floor joists running the opposite direction and it would be more involved than i care to get right now.

Alos, the wall with the oil burner is full...I have a well pump and water heater and all my plumbing is on that wall, so I can't use that wall. BUT, I am thinking i will build a wall in front of it all and enclose that as a seperate room giving me a wall to use for clamps and my miter saw ot jointer. Bit i will listen to peoples thoughts on this last plan, and do some more research, but I think it will work if I can map out the dust collection pvc...which i think I can.

Thanks!!! :D

[John Weber]

Tim,

The guys are right about moving the beams. While it can be done by you and a buddy, an engineer needs to look at the site and design a solution. You might need to pour some footings, and install post or lay block for the beam to rest on. You'll fight the beams the whole time you are in the shop - not terrible, but well worth the cost to take care of. Just don't engineer it yourself - hire an engineer!

John

[Jerry Todd]

Tim,

Since you are starting over have you considered the LIGHTING for your shop? I would recommend an article by JACK L. LINDSEY "LIGHTING FOR THE WORKSHOP", Fine Woodworking Feb 2002. When I built my new shop I followed his advice and have been happy with the results.
Good Luck,
Jerry Todd

[Frank Pellow]

Tim, I too like your latest layout. But, is it safe to put a wall that close to the oil burner?

[Tim Morton]

Tim, I too like your latest layout. But, is it safe to put a wall that close to the oil burner?

Thanks Frank..I have been studying your layout and I wish I could set it up like yours with the tools in one area and the work benches in there own space, But I will move things into postion this weekend and see how functional it will be.

As for the wall surrounding the oil burner and other mechanicals, I had one in my last house and had no problems. I will do bi-fold doors or something so I don't "close it in too muchand affect airflow"...it would be more of a partiton wall than a room.


Tim,

Since you are starting over have you considered the LIGHTING for your shop? I would recommend an article by JACK L. LINDSEY "LIGHTING FOR THE WORKSHOP", Fine Woodworking Feb 2002. When I built my new shop I followed his advice and have been happy with the results.
Good Luck,
Jerry Todd

Lighting will be a combination of floresents(sp) over the table saw and work benches...with "canned" lights spread out over the rest.

[Jim O'Dell]

Tim, I take it with the latest design that the planer and jointer will remain on mobile bases to pull out when in use? That's the only hang up I see. I think I would still pull the wall off and just leave the posts by themselves. It would open up avenues for maybe using the jointer without having to pull it out. Would need to make sure that the workbench is the same height as the jointer beds, of course. You could still hang items on the rest of the posts/divider. Time will evolve the final plan you will decide on. Jim.

[Tim Morton]

Tim, I take it with the latest design that the planer and jointer will remain on mobile bases to pull out when in use? That's the only hang up I see. I think I would still pull the wall off and just leave the posts by themselves. It would open up avenues for maybe using the jointer without having to pull it out. Would need to make sure that the workbench is the same height as the jointer beds, of course. You could still hang items on the rest of the posts/divider. Time will evolve the final plan you will decide on. Jim.

Yes, the planer and jointer (and CMS and TS) are all mobile ...and the table in the middle of the room will be the same height as the TS so it can be an outfeed table when needed.,,,I will thinking about pulling down the wall and making the table in back the same height as the jointer...great idea!!

I posted this topic yesterday to get hese kinds of ideas..I tried asking LOML for help but she said ..the basement is all you!! I don't even think she knows its gutted. Of course the pile of scrap wood outside in the backyard waiting to be burned might tip her off in the morning :D

[Tim Morton]

Tim, I take it with the latest design that the planer and jointer will remain on mobile bases to pull out when in use? That's the only hang up I see. I think I would still pull the wall off and just leave the posts by themselves. It would open up avenues for maybe using the jointer without having to pull it out. Would need to make sure that the workbench is the same height as the jointer beds, of course. You could still hang items on the rest of the posts/divider. Time will evolve the final plan you will decide on. Jim.

Jim it tok me a week but i have followed yours and others advice to remove the short wall, and I also added a new wall back behind the door to close off the strage area and give me a wall to use for tool storage and a working top to use for whatever comes up. I have tentatively moved the DC and jointer planer and Miter saw area to try and minimize the problem with the 6x6 posts..(they are staying!!! :D ) its still tentative But i am going to start laying out electrical outlets during the week so its getting more permanant. i will lay out outlets to allow as much flexibilty as possible.

[Jim Becker]

Much nicer, Tim. And that arrangement also gives you a nice clear and straight path from your bulkhead door into the shop. The TS/outfeed table also remains available for "large" assembly work if the space where your bench happens to be too constrained at that particular moment.

Shop layouts tend to evolve over time...this speeded up evolution has been good and will likely make for less rearrangement down the road.

BTW, you could put the planer opposite the jointer with the posts between and share a drop, too... ;)

[Tim Morton]

BTW, you could put the planer opposite the jointer with the posts between and share a drop, too...

I will have a plug drop in place for the planer on the post..thanks!!! I am also thinking now that I should flip the jointer to the other side of the post so i can drop the Table saw plug down that same post and not have to walk on the plug when using the jointer. I am painting a clear sealer on the floor right now but when it drys i will put things in place and get a better feel.

[Jim Becker]

Tim..."pictures"!! :D

For your TS power drop, (and DC drop) just to the right end of the saw extension table is a good spot for those things, although I don't recall if you have a router setup over there...which would make that less desireable.

Are you sure you want your planer that close to your bench? The next slot up would be where I would probably put it...where the jointer originally was. Add "infeed/outfeed" blocks (just some light color) relative to each "stationary" tool to see what work flow would work like. John Y showed that in his recent Fine Woodworking article and I think it's a terrifc idea when planing positions for tools that you feed lumber through.

[Jim O'Dell]

Tim, getting that wall down on paper seems to make a HUGH difference. I bet it really shows up in person! I like the evolution. You should be able to use most all of the stationay tools where they sit, at least for most of your work. And since they are still mobile, if you get some boards you need to work on that are just a tad too long, you can easily move things around for a temp fix. And you can still hang some tools on the posts, especially those that you would use for the power tools that are there. Congrats! Look forward to seeing pictures as everything starts going together. Jim.

edit. I just noticed, is there actually that short of a space between the bench and the door? or is it a space/ratio thing? If it is that close to the wall behind, I think I would push the bench up against the pole. Although that poses a problem with the jointer outfeed, unless it is built to act as an outfeed table at the same height as the jointer. I'd want a little more room behind me when working.

[Tim Morton]

Tim..."pictures"!!

Nothing to see yet except an empty basement with wet pain on the floor :D Hers a "before" when it looked horrible!!! This would be looking for the door and in the same direction as the drawing.

[Tim Morton]

Heres a lo-res pan of ther basement with my daughters camera...

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the pictures. Hey, I can now see that you have LOTS of space. :D And, you certainly seem to be making good use of it.

I have really enjoyed seeing how this layout has evolved! Keep up the good work.

[Tim Morton]

I have really enjoyed seeing how this layout has evolved! Keep up the good work

Thanks Frank..Here is the FINAL plan...I'm moving foward. I found I could move the table saw much closer to the left wall giving me a ton of space to the right side of the saw for a workbench. And I hated the idea of putting the wood inside that precious area. Jims voice was in my head..."get everything that you can OUT of the main area." The router table will be put into place one I get or build one, and the paner will be stored where you see it and when in use I will move it between the table saw and work bench, using the saws out feed table as the planer outfeed if i can line up all the table heights. But unless smoen points out an obvious flaw i think this plan is complete....and i have ALL of you to thank!!! So Thank-you!!!

[Jim Becker]

This is pretty good, Tim. And the pictures really helped with visualizing the space. The nice thing about the way's it's evolved is that you can get your table saw almost to the wall excepting space you need for your duct drop since the right side "stops" when you can't move the fence any farther. That leaves plenty of room to the left of the saw for all kinds of things as you need to do them.

Suggest that the bench next to the miter station and the miter station be the same height for obvious reasons. Same for your workbench and TS/Outfeed.

[Brian Hale]

Looks good Tim!

One final suggestion..... If you have plans for a future TS upgrade (I'm NOT saying you need a new saw) you may want to consider it's height when you construct your new benchs.

Please keep us posted on the progress 'cause we're having as much fun as you are!!

Brian

[Tim Morton]

If you have plans for a future TS upgrade (I'm NOT saying you need a new saw) you may want to consider it's height when you construct your new benchs.


What did you see my shopoholic thread? I would LOVE a cabinet saw, but i would have to find someone to buy my contractor saw first, and even then it would be tough to justify. But I'm buying all these tools as an investment in my future...I'm figuring money will be tighter when I retire :cool:


Suggest that the bench next to the miter station and the miter station be the same height for obvious reasons. Same for your workbench and TS/Outfeed.

Yes, i will plan on the bench matching the CMS. The reason for the bench is because I have one of those portable stablemate CMS bases, and it feels like I need a flat surface over there. I'm not sure the height of the planer yet, as I haven't set up the mobile stand yet. But i will try and work all the heights to be the most adaptable to mix and match.

All in all I think its working out OK. I will whip up a quick workbench out of MDF and 2x4's to make sure it all fits together. And I will start working up the electrical this week and I'm guessing next weekend will be planning the duct work for the DC. And of course Sunday is the SB. I wish I had frank's energy...he would have this thing done by now!! :D

[Frank Pellow]

...
I wish I had frank's energy...he would have this thing done by now!! :D
I'm retired. That makes me seem more productive, but I doubt that I am.