DC Duct Routing - Looking for your opinions

[Anthony Whitesell]

I hope we can have some fun with this.

As I have mentioned in some other posts, I have been working on mocking my shop layout in Sketchup. I have finished as much as would be beneficial to the drawing. Anything else would make it more pretty than practical.

Here are some of the details about my shop.
- It is in a walk out basement
- The beam at the bottom of the screen is the center joist, the floor joists run from the top to the bottom of the screen
- The tractor is 45 years old and gets a place of honor in the basement as I don't have a garage. It's actually a 2 wheel tractor, but I couldn't find a model of it so this one was scaled to fit.
- All the tools are on wheels. The planer and drum sander are used in the open space between the tractor and bandsaw. The tools could be rearranged, but I have found that they work best in these locations.
- Under the center joist is a wall. Just 'south' of the center joist is the furnace and chimney. In my layout, I'm taking a page from Alan Schaffter's book and running some of the duct in "another space". I'm hoping to snake the duct between the chimney and the wall and above the furnace piping.

I will modify this thread or reply to it as questions are asked about the shop and what can be done.

So let's see how this goes. I'm eager to hear all of your suggestions.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I thought of a few more details that would be required for your evaluation.

The DC is a Oneida C950 cyclone body with a Marathon 2HP motor and 12 impeller producing 950CFM at 8"H2O SP (as mentioned elsewhere.

The main trunk is 7" and all drops are reduced to 6" just before the blast gate, with two exceptions (the router table and bandsaw) where the reducer is installed in the main trunk.

To provide some scale, the left room (with the TS) is 10'6" x 7', the lumber rack behind/over the jointer is 7'6" wide.

The black space at the end of the lumber rack represents a walk way entering into the right hand room.

There is a shelf running above the tractor, planer, and drum sander storage. Removing it completely is not and option, but I may be able to shorten it for a really good reason/idea.

The duct run from top to bottom in the left room, must follow one wall or the other as on the other side of the wall (bottom/southside) is a stairway. The three center floor joist spaces (center 4') are taken up with blocking and supports for the stairs.

[Paul Wunder]

Anthony,

Very creative with your tight space. Any chance of running two ducts (one to each room)? Your band saw is at the end of the run and many people run two pickups from that machine. If you can relocate the cyclone to the right side (where the tractor is) I believe that you will get more cfm to the B/S and planer without sacrificing any to the left room.

Paul

[John M. Smith]

The thing that I noticed first was several of the lateral wyes are backwards.

John

[Anthony Whitesell]

Hmm....how do you figure the wyes are backwards? The airflow is clockwise, sucked in through the bandsaw, then down, then to the left, then up and then to the right into the DC. Though the branch to the TS may be better of is reoriented. I'll get back in a few.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Let me work the suggestion from a few angles.

The vague black spot on the floor to the right of the lumber rack is a walkway, so I can't block that.

There is actually a shelf that runs the full length (top to bottom) over the tractor, planer, and drum sander storage. I didn't show it. I don't think putting the DC at the blower end of the tractor would work so well. I would not be able to come across in front of the door to pick up the bandsaw.

What if I was to cut the shelf short and place the DC at the other end in place of the DC and sander. That would put the BS and planer at the mid-point instead of the end?

[Jeff Bratt]

My 2¢...
Going all the way around the loop (25-30'?) from the bandsaw back to the DC makes no sense. The actual distance from the bandsaw to the DC is what, 3'? Definitely try to route a main duct to each room, each running as directly as possible back to the DC. I'm guessing there must be some other considerations that are not shown in your sketch that are limiting the routing of your ducts...

[Anthony Whitesell]

The biggest problem I have is the take-out for the bends. The take sooo much space to make a turn that it's hard to fit them in. I'm all for your suggestion but I'm at a loss to figure it out. I'm keeping a list of the considerations in replies by me to the original post, have a look, make suggestions. If I've missed a consideration I'll add it, if not I'll try to incorporate it.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Based on your thought that some of the Wye are backwards, I reviewed the orientation of each to see if rotating them would buy me anything and I came up with this arrangement. I lose a reducer by changing a wye from 7-7-7 to 7-7-6 in the TS branch. Down stream of the jointer branch, I was able to switch out a 90 for a 45 and include a piece of straight pipe in between which is good for CFM.

I'm not sure about the TS branch change, but I will probably keep the jointer change.

[Chris Fournier]

Your initial layout is pretty much dead opposite of what Oneida suggest on their website - you've the ring road layout. The horizontal filter kills a ton of the filter capacity as the fines will drop to the bottom of the cartridge rather than fall to a pan. Cleaning you filter is gonna really be a PITA.

This being said your space is very small and compartmentalized so you have a ton of compromises to make. Given the size of your operation the only compromise that I would be unprepared to make is the above your head horizontal filter, I think that this is the only killer flaw.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Yep, I saw that too. I have almost everything they don't want to see.

I noticed a pic posted here that someone else has their filter mounted hoziontally which is where I got the idea. I don't know if it will fit (according to sketchup it doesn't) to rotate the blower output 45 clockwise and stand the filter behind the spine of the bandsaw. Luckily I don't have a cartridge filter yet so I have options. I noticed the Wynn filters tend to be short and fat opposed to the Penn State filters which are tall and skinny. The filter system that came with the DC was a series of 5 shaker bags. I am some what tempted to try to figure out a horizontal method of mounting 3 to 4 of them attached end to end. That idea might be a little far fetched.

[Chris Fournier]

The output collar can be rotated every 45 degrees as shipped from Oneida. It would not be difficult to drill more holes in the cone flange to allow you to move the output collar in 22.5 degree increments - this might help you in your tight layout.

[John M. Smith]

Sorry Anthony. I didn't look at it correctly. The wyes were correct.

John

[Jeff Bratt]

What does the duct routing look like if, as you mentioned, you locate the DC in the lower right corner - where the planer and sander are now. The main duct could run under the ceiling joist, with branches for the bandsaw, jointer, tablesaw, etc. The shelf would have to be shortened, but then the filter can be vertical, and I think the ducts will work out better. It easy to try in a drawing...

[Joe Angrisani]

Anthony.... What else is beyond that south wall besides the furnace and chimney? I can't imagine they take up the whole width. Any chance the cyclone can go south of the wall somewhere along it's length? You could frame in a room of sorts that is open to the shop side for return air flow. Alternately, could you frame in a room/alcove for the tractor to sit south of the beam, yet open to the shop side?

[Joe Watson]

How tall/high are your ceilings (wondering about clearance above doors) ?
Are both doors the same width (more so, can the tractor go in ether room) ?
Can you tear down the interior walls ?
What are the dimensions of the rooms split up like you have them, and if the interior walls can be move/torn down, whats the dimensions of the full room ?
What do you plan on building; how much room do you need to run planks through the jointer (eg, 8' plank needs 16'+), planer; sheet good through table saw, etc ?
How much room do you have behind the south/chimney wall (assuming thats the wall with the full green background)?

Putting the tractor, DC, lumber and a "light, not used too often tool which is on wheels" in other room might work, plus you can isolate the DC alittle for sound.

_

[Anthony Whitesell]

How tall/high are your ceilings (wondering about clearance above doors) ? The ceilings are 91". The interior doors are 82", the exterior door is 78". There is about 8" above the interior doors and 3" above the exterior door (as the exterior door sits on a 10" rise)


Are both doors the same width (more so, can the tractor go in ether room) ?
The interior doors are the same width 26", but the exterior door is 32" wide. So the tractor will not fit through the interior doors.


Can you tear down the interior walls ? I suppose I could and I have thought of doing so, but then I loose a bunch of wall space and have to figure out were to store that stuff instead.


What are the dimensions of the rooms split up like you have them, and if the interior walls can be move/torn down, whats the dimensions of the full room? The left room is 7'6" wide and the right room is about 9'6" from the wall to the far side of the door and 14'6" from the interior to the exterior wall.


What do you plan on building; how much room do you need to run planks through the jointer (eg, 8' plank needs 16'+), planer; sheet good through table saw, etc?
I don't tend to build anything overly large (not that I wouldn't like to, but large stuff takes lots more time, money, and space), When I need to run long boards through the planer I move it so I can am them through the exterior door. Same for the jointer. Longer boards on the table saw are cut by pivoting the saw and aiming them in one door and out the other. Anything over 4'x4' I use a circular saw and saw horses to cut.


How much room do you have behind the south/chimney wall (assuming thats the wall with the full green background)?

That wall is not solid green, that's just the background color. I didn't include that wall so the shop was see thru for the 3D view. But you are in the right place. I have about 8" between the chimney and the back of the lumber rack. The furnace starts at about the middle wall and runs 3/4 of the way across the back of the lumber rack.

[Joe Watson]

Heres one option which i would check out in Sketchup.

Widen the interior door to 32" and take that 'jog' out of the wall by getting rid of the longer leg and extending the shorter one strait across the room (it looks like you have tried this being there is a "stud" just to the right of the router table) so in the end you will have two rectangular rooms, small on the left, larger on the right.

Putting the DC where the table saw is; depending on the furnace, running the DC's ductwork in that 8" cavity as much as possible - wyeing down inside the 8" cavity and if you have access to the floor joist bays above use one of them to get the DC's duct across the room.

Put the tractor on the "new wall" in the small room.

(Main) Lumber rack in the same room as the tractor, opposite - running parallel to it.
Maybe for the ease of taking lumber in and out, the tractor and lumber rack would need to be revised.

Then you could roll the router table (or band saw) between the tractor and lumber rack; you would get the tractor out of the room which you would be creating saw dust in along with getting the DC into a position where you could flip the filter and "pipe" it a little more efficiently.

Or a 36" wide interior door (for the ease of moving things in and out), lumber in the larger room and store the sander, planer, bandsaw in small room with DC and tractor.

I would try and utilize the larger room for work space and use the small room for storage.

8" above the doors can come in handy for a small shelf - small tools (routers, circler saws, hand sanders, etc) which are not used all the time but still want easy access to or thin, long scraps of wood.

Just some ideas.
Good luck.

[John Eaton]

My biggest problems with the overall designs:

1. Horizontal filter - any way you can turn the whole cyclone body so the fiter is through the wall on the left? I don't think you're going to be too happy with it laying in the ceiling.
2. The ducts break plane - meaning they to up, then down and across, before going back up to then come down to the unit. I know the ducting takes up space but by just ceiling mounting (below the joists) you eliminate the up-down-across-up-down. You can also run wyes along the ceiling to create more than one run.
3. If the walls between the rooms aren't structural I would take them down so you have one continuous space (be easier to ceiling mount ducting too).

-- John

[Jim Becker]

That crossing back over the beam to support the drops in the same space as the cyclone is pretty inefficient. It would be better for you to branch in the same room for those drops to keep the duct length shorter.

The other thing is that unless your filter is designed to work horizontally like you show it, it will not be the best choice, either.

[Anthony Whitesell]

That crossing back over the beam to support the drops in the same space as the cyclone is pretty inefficient. It would be better for you to branch in the same room for those drops to keep the duct length shorter.

I agree, but I can't figure out how to make the branch and swing in the same room. Granted I'm not 100% sure the take-off measurements for the wyes and bends are correct, I did my best with an HVAC parts order manual I found online. With the body oriented as pictured, I can't make the turn to the bandsaw. If I turn the cyclone body 90 degrees (point inline down/south), I can't clear the top of the bandsaw and provide a drop for it in the space behind it. Though I am open to suggestions because most of the census is the pickups in the "cyclone room" are more important (ie., make more and larger chips) than the TS/RT room.


The other thing is that unless your filter is designed to work horizontally like you show it, it will not be the best choice, either.

Any suggestions on how would I find if it is deisgned to work horizontally or find one that is? I re-searched the few filter sites I have and they aren't specifying.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I have made some very serious concessions to improve the layout. I swapped the DC to the corner in place of the sander, losing almost 4ft of the shelf that is (not pictured) over the planer and tractor. I'm thinking I might able to install some shelves over the sander to make up for it. i could not however afford to lose 25% of my lumber storage by running the duct across the top shelf to get to the table saw and down the first row to get to the jointer. I have left the run for the tablesaw and jointer on the backside of the center joist while the DC and runs to the bandsaw and router table are on the front side. Any ideas or suggestions for connecting to the without descimating the shelf space of the lumber rack? Don't forget that on top of the walls and center joist the floor joists run from top to bottom.

[Alan Schaffter]

Now you are getting closer, but I can't figure out what is going with the ducting just to left of the DC.

Can't you put the DC south of the wall or better still outside, to the right in the general area? Having the DC so close to everything really makes it tough.

Can you angle the duct from the DC so it is a straight shot down to the TS? Put the drop for the jointer where it falls along the sloping main. That would eliminate a 90 and some other ducting.

Overall space comments- build a little shed and get the tractor out of there! Remove the wall that snakes, N to S from BS to the TS. Since it is parallel to the joists it is probably not structural.

[Paul Wunder]

Anthony,

Picking up on Allan's thought, have you considered mounting the cyclone in a small shed attached to the house. In addition to resolving space issues, cyclones are extremely noisy beasts and you have a very small enclosed area for you and your tools and your cyclone to inhabit.

Paul

[Anthony Whitesell]

I have no land to build a shed outside and that tractor (as depicted) is the snowblower and like most 40+ year olds doesn't start so well in the cold. I can't place the DC south of the center joist (just on the other side) there is a built in workbench there that is nearly part of the foundation, was there when I purchased the house, and is not part of the WW shop. The only option of putting the DC outside would require an additional 10 feet of duct as un-attached buildings not requiring building permit and UBC requirements must be a minimum of 10 feet from the primary residence, not to mention drilling two 7" diameter holes through the 8" thick concrete foundation. OOOF!

P.S. Being a basement none of the walls a structural.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Now you are getting closer, but I can't figure out what is going with the ducting just to left of the DC.

That's where I ran into problems. I place the ducting from the empty wye tot he jointer and planer and relaized I was losing WAY too much real estate, both in floor space and storage space. I can't figure out an elegant DC efficient way to connect the two pieces. So I thought I would put up the layout as it stands and ask for some help, ideas, and options.

I can tie into the over head duct anywhere between the jointer and TS. But I have also learned that without replumbing the piece of the heating system near the expansion tank (and I've considered it and it's slightly tempting) that the duct in that location must follow the center joist as pictured. I cannot raise or lower it even 1". It's the perfect space if I can figure out how to make it work.


Can you angle the duct from the DC so it is a straight shot down to the TS?

I'm not following you on this one Alan. I REALLY don't want the duct in the same room as the TS. As the TS on on wheels, when it is not in use I roll it back against the wall. Because the wall is 2x4 and the center joist 3*2x10, the wall is narrower than the joist set away from the TS buying me an extra 1 1/2", losing those 8 1/2" would be some of the most valuable.


Put the drop for the jointer where it falls along the sloping main. That would eliminate a 90 and some other ducting.

Not following you here either.

On a different but related note. One thing I researched and noticed about most (if not all the jointers I looked at) is that the chip exit is under the outfeed table therefore REQUIRING a bend to get the duct out of the way of the outfeed. One way to mitigate the double bend as in my case would be to have it run through the floor like your system but unfortunatelt that's not an option for basement systems. Would it be more DC efficient to build a box on the outlet and plumb straight into the box rather than have a hood and a bend on the chip exit?

[Alan Schaffter]

I have no land to build a shed outside and that tractor (as depicted) is the snowblower and like most 40+ year olds doesn't start so well in the cold. I can't place the DC south of the center joist (just on the other side) there is a built in workbench there that is nearly part of the foundation, was there when I purchased the house, and is not part of the WW shop. The only option of putting the DC outside would require an additional 10 feet of duct as un-attached buildings not requiring building permit and UBC requirements must be a minimum of 10 feet from the primary residence, not to mention drilling two 7" diameter holes through the 8" thick concrete foundation. OOOF!

If you can't move it outside I would try real hard to figure out a way to get the DC in the room south of the center beam- solves TWO REALLY BIG ISSUES and helps with a third: Reduces noise, doesn't take up valuable shop space, and makes it easier to run ducting!

Can you squeeze the snowblower into a garage? How about a small leanto off the back of the shop, just outside the door?


P.S. Being a basement none of the walls are structural.

Then get rid of that wall!!

[Anthony Whitesell]

If you can't move it outside I would try real hard to figure out a way to get the DC in the room south of the center beam- solves TWO REALLY BIG ISSUES and helps with a third: Reduces noise, doesn't take up valuable shop space, and makes it easier to run ducting!

Can you squeeze the snowblower into a garage? How about a small leanto off the back of the shop, just outside the door?



Then get rid of that wall!!

Let's say I move the DC south of the center joist, then the DC, TS and jointer are connected. How do I connect that segment to the bandsaw, router table, and plane on the other side. I still have the same issue...I think. Any chance the house would fall down if I drilled a 7" hole in the center joist? (just kidding)

Not an option, no garage. Unheated outside storage is only an option for the summertime. In the winter the tractor has to be warm, or atleast above freezing.

I have removed the wall and closet in sketchup. I don't see that it buys anything for the DC routing or tool placement. The shelves moved to the other side of the closet against the outer wall, and the pegboards hung on the other two closet walls went away. As it is in the latest layout, the back of the wall is supporting the BS drop.

[Alan Schaffter]

That's where I ran into problems.

Another reason to put the DC south of the beam.

Looking at the back of the south wall (from the other room), the duct would run from the DC at the upper right, diagonally across the wall down to the TS at the lower left (on the back side of the wall like you have it.) There is no reason for the main needs to run horizontally with vertical drops coming off of it- take the shorter route- the hypotenuse- unless there is something in the way- and make it all one run from the DC down to the TS.


Not following you here either.

Just tap off the diagonal main I just described for the jointer blast gate. At most you might need a very short drop for the jointer


On a different but related note. One thing I researched and noticed about most (if not all the jointers I looked at) is that the chip exit is under the outfeed table therefore REQUIRING a bend to get the duct out of the way of the outfeed. One way to mitigate the double bend as in my case would be to have it run through the floor like your system but unfortunatelt that's not an option for basement systems. Would it be more DC efficient to build a box on the outlet and plumb straight into the box rather than have a hood and a bend on the chip exit?

The chip exit is always on the outfeed end due to the rotation of the cutter head. I don't know why you would need a double bend unless your jointer is located with the fence on the shop side instead of towards the south wall. With the main running down the back side of the south wall, it would pass relatively close to the discharge of the jointer. You could do a nice neat installation for both the jointer and TS by mounting the drop ports right in the wall. I have a different setup- my duct angles up from the floor instead of down from the DC, but the idea is the same:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P1010088a1.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P4020018.JPG

[Anthony Whitesell]

Another reason to put the DC south of the beam.

Looking at the back of the south wall (from the other room), the duct would run from the DC at the upper right, diagonally across the wall down to the TS at the lower left (on the back side of the wall like you have it.) There is no reason for the main needs to run horizontally with vertical drops coming off of it- take the shorter route- the hypotenuse- unless there is something in the way- and make it all one run from the DC down to the TS.

Ahhh! Gotcha now. I will do that as much as possible but just about dead center (left of the center lolly-column is the expansion tank and inlet plumbing for the heating system, so the duct must be at the height of the center joist at that point, But I will put in a double 45 instead of the joist side 90.




Just tap off the diagonal main I just described for the jointer blast gate. At most you might need a very short drop for the jointer

Though not obvious in the drawing, to the right of the right-most lolly-column is a black square on the floor representing a walk way for north-south access. If I move the DC south the routing would still have to go up and over this walkway. So incorporating on the above double 45, I have the best based-on-constraints routing for these two pieces.

Any idea of how to connect the south of the joist to north of the joist trunks?




The chip exit is always on the outfeed end due to the rotation of the cutter head. I don't know why you would need a double bend unless your jointer is located with the fence on the shop side instead of towards the south wall. With the main running down the back side of the south wall, it would pass relatively close to the discharge of the jointer. You could do a nice neat installation for both the jointer and TS by mounting the drop ports right in the wall. I have a different setup- my duct angles up from the floor instead of down from the DC, but the idea is the same:

By double bend I mean the exit turns 90 to meet with the gate which is on the end of another 90 (hence doube bend). Would a box on the end of the chip chute help? One side of me says it's still a 90 just made of sheetmetal or plywood, the other side says the duct enters straight so it doesn't count.

[Alan Schaffter]

Let's say I move the DC south of the center joist, then the DC, TS and jointer are connected. How do I connect that segment to the bandsaw, router table, and plane on the other side. I still have the same issue...I think. Any chance the house would fall down if I drilled a 7" hole in the center joist? (just kidding)

How high off the floor will the intake of the DC be? Do the joists run perpendicular to the beam and sit on top of it or do they butt it and are attached with joist hangers? If the DC can be mounted with the intake just below the beam- (1) Put the DC on the south side of the of the wall in that right corner. (2) come straight out of the intake for a foot or so, then add a 45 wye oriented so the branch angles both into the shop and up towards the shop ceiling. Then run a diagonal to the BS (correction) and router table. (3) attach a 45 el to the straight through branch of the 45 wye so it angles down at a 45 along the back side of the south wall. (4) use a 45 wye and a 45 el for the jointer port and and two 45 els at the end for the TS port- both ports can be neat, flush like in the photo in my last post that you use with short lengths of flex and quick disconnects. Blast gates can be mounted behind the wall, on the surface of the wall, or on the machine if you make them like I did.

If you send me your SketchUp file I can modify it to show you what I mean.

[Alan Schaffter]

I have removed the wall and closet in sketchup. I don't see that it buys anything for the DC routing or tool placement. The shelves moved to the other side of the closet against the outer wall, and the pegboards hung on the other two closet walls went away. As it is in the latest layout, the back of the wall is supporting the BS drop.

Right now it doesn't look like you have any infeed room on the jointer. With the wall segment between the TS and jointer gone you do!

[Anthony Whitesell]

The bottom of the intake will be about 66" from the floor. The floor joists run perpendicular to the center joist and sit on top (no hangers). I cannot get the top of the intake up to the bottom of the center joist. The motor and blower are just too tall, and an 8" 90 to mount it elsewhere is exactly the same size (I have one and measured it). Other than a north-south duct run, nothing can be above the height of the walls or center joist.

The DC cannot be installed directly to south of the center joist. There are things there that can't be moved. I also think you are running directly across the walkway with the DC south of the joist.

How do we send sketchup files? Can we attach them to posts?

[Anthony Whitesell]

Almost true of the infeed, but taking out the wall also removes those shelves and I haven't found a place for them and doesn't buy me any outfeed. There's 4' of infeed when used in place which I'm usually working 3-4 foot long pieces so it works out. The jointer is on a mobile base and I pivot the infeed side around towards the bandsaw depending on the length. Using the doorway for up to 6' of infeed; and rotating further to use the basement outside door for 12' of infeed and additional outfeed.

[Alan Schaffter]

Ahhh! Gotcha now. I will do that as much as possible but just about dead center (left of the center lolly-column is the expansion tank and inlet plumbing for the heating system, so the duct must be at the height of the center joist at that point, But I will put in a double 45 instead of the joist side 90.

What is behind the TS? Is that a pass-through or did you just leave out the wall studs? If it is a wall, then my recommendation changes- reverse everything and put the DC in the left, lower corner.

[Anthony Whitesell]

The black and gray quarter-circles on the floor represent the door swings and walkway areas. So directly to the left of the TS is a doorway and to the left of the TS operator (just north and to the right in the drawing is a second door (the one you'd like me to remove).

I was thinking of trying to put it south of the beam in the lower left, but the outlet would be away from the wall.

[Jeff Bratt]

I didn't realize that there was another walkway between the jointer and the latest location for the DC (even though I now see you did mention it), that does make this location trickier. What about some sort of custom-fit plenum that mounts underneath the main ceiling joist that can join your two "main" ducts together with the DC intake? Good sheet metal guys can work wonders in these situations...