When mail ordering machinery [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

glenn bradley

03-10-2011, 6:07 PM

I was unable to vote as I "expect" everything to be correct. I buy quite a bit of stuff that gets shipped;some small and some heavy. On the rare occasion that I have had an issue over the years, I have never had a seller give me anything but great response. I believe a lot of this has to do with who you buy from, how things get shipped and by all evidence, how the items make the last few miles of the trip.

I am on the coast so many items come straight from the dock or the distribution warehouse of the seller. A couple of my larger machines arrived on the truck they were originally loaded on to by the seller. My most painful experience was my Orion tablesaw. They kept sending me the wrong wings. They were extra extension wings so the impact was minimal. I have been blessed with no lemons or dropped crates, knock on wood . . .. no better yet, go saw some wood ;-)

Rod Sheridan

03-10-2011, 6:13 PM

I ordered 2 Hammer machines from the local Felder dealer.

All their stuff is "mail order" you design the machine you want from a large list of options, pay a deposit and a few months later it appears in your garage.

I guess they were mail order since I mailed the cheque.

I also bought General stuff that way through the local dealer, except I picked it up at the dealer when it arrived.

If I had problems with any of the above machines, I expect to see the field service guy at my house taking care of the problems unless it's as simple as a small item that they forgot to ship, like a guard perhaps.

Short version is I couldn't vote since there's no option for "Vendor provides field service"................Rod.

Matt Winterowd

03-10-2011, 6:18 PM

I'm pretty sure I'm one of the guys that Richard is referring to, and I probably just shouldn't even reply to this post, except that I don't like having my remarks mischaracterized.

What I, and others, actually said was that any product can be defective regardless of where you buy it. Not that it's going to be faulty, or even likely, but it is a possibility. Buying mail order puts you at risk of having to put some extra effort if something does go wrong - e.g. returning the product, waiting for parts, installing the replacement parts, etc.. Nobody said anything about "expecting" to have a major problem except for Richard.

Richard, have you really never in your life purchased a faulty product before? I can assure you, it happens occasionally to most people. I got a bad carton of milk at the grocery store just last week. I then had a choice: do I just pour it out and write off the loss, or do I schlep it back to the store for a refund/replacement even though that's a pain for just a carton of milk. Even though it was bummer, not for a second did I think that the dairy or the store had somehow wronged me, nor that standards of quality have gotten lax. In fact, just the opposite, it happens a lot less than in "the good old days".

Again, I'm just offering my opinion. I can respect that others may disagree. That's all.

Matt Day

03-10-2011, 6:26 PM

I'm not really sure how to vote on this. If the machine doesn't work or isn't up to par, I'd expect parts to make it right or if it's easier enough to send it back. After unpacking and setting up a jointer or bandsaw, I'm not sending those back but woudl expect to spend some time disassembling and reassembling the mahine. A good company would probably compensate me more than just the parts to fix it.

Sean Nagle

03-10-2011, 6:34 PM

I understand what the original poster is trying to discern. I voted for "Do you expect to repair or rebuild with compensation".

When you order a machine, whether it was sold through a local dealer or "mail / internet order", the product is usually shipped to your premises. So there you are with 400 lbs of cast iron lying there with directions saying "some assembly required". If something is amiss, it's not necessarily practical to pack it up and send it back. There is an expectation though that all the parts should arrive without damage incurred either at the factory or in shipping. All the vendors I've ever bought machines from have graciously met this obligation. However, it is usually up to the buyer to "install" the replacement part. If I feel the work I have to put into the correction is excessive, I'll request some compensation from the dealer or manufacturer in the form of some accessory.

This is not a new expectation. When I was tooling up some 20 years ago, it was generally accepted that you weren't buying a tablesaw, you were buying a tablesaw kit. Also, as a woodworker, it's expected that you should be adept enough to service your own machinery.

Gary Max

03-10-2011, 7:47 PM

I think most companies are cutting back on service to save a buck so they can stay afloat.

Callan Campbell

03-10-2011, 7:58 PM

I'm probably too used to "tweaking" a new machine purchase to complain much about it anymore. Worst case, I'll contact the supplier or factory to see what they want to do in the case of something really out of whack. Shipping damage is something else entirely , I've rarely had to deal with it, so that's a plus. Once something large and heavy is out of its shipping box/crate and in my basement shop, I'd rather not have to repack it and send it back. Compensation?, heck, I struggle to get paid for fixing things at work that are under factory warranty and belong to someone else!

Jim Finn

03-10-2011, 8:40 PM

Do I expect Who to repair with or without compensation? First three options are confusing to me. Who do you mean to repair....? the buyer or the seller?

Ken Fitzgerald

03-10-2011, 8:54 PM

What price point machine are you buying.......the cheapest or.....Rod's high end stuff?

Dave Lehnert

03-10-2011, 9:04 PM

I think it has more to do with price. If I buy a 18" bandsaw for $800 I expect a few tweaks to be made or have to do some repairs myself. If I buy a 18" bandsaw for $4,000 I expect a higher standard in quality and service.

david brum

03-10-2011, 9:46 PM

I voted "Don't order mail order machinery for this reason". Of the three machines I've mail ordered, two were bandsaws that were completely destroyed by the shipper. Those were both major hassles which made me wish I'd bought at a retail store. Not that a store is any guarantee either. I bought a cabinet saw which had a defective top right from the box. That was a major hassle too.

My last several purchases were used machines from craigslist. No shipping required, no cosmoline to remove, crates and pallets to dispose of, and the bugs are already worked out. I won't mention price.

Dave MacArthur

03-10-2011, 9:53 PM

Wasn't a category for my answer... the possible answers all seemed skewed towards a predetermined result.

I expect and hope the product will be correct when it arrives.
I REALIZE the world isn't perfect, nor shipping, nor quality control, and I might have an issue.
I expect a company to honor it's written warranty--NOT what I wish was written or my fairy-tale version of the warranty, but the honest-to-gosh written warranty.
I expect NOT TO WHINE if the company honors its warranty, despite me wishing it had been a stronger warranty or that I'd actually read it before and realized what it meant.
I expect to post negative comments only after company fails to honor it's warranty, and I've contacted them per the warranty and tried to execute the approved legally binding contract for settling matters.
I expect there might be small items I might decide to fix myself rather than hassle with the company on like a bolt-hole or threads. I'll post a comment on those being bad if it happens.
I expect anything major I'll probably get replaced per the warranty, or at companies decision per the warranty, the whole machine replaced if it's cheaper for them.
And yes, I do expect that I'll likely have more issues when purchasing by internet than at a store, and I'll accept that risk for the reduced price cutting out a middleman who performs quality control gives me.

Matt Kestenbaum

03-10-2011, 10:05 PM

I bought from a big green and cream mail/web house...my 8" parallelogram jointer. It caused/had plenty of problems, including but limited to bad bearings, drive pulley/shaft issues, and the like. The warranty seemed strong, and there were plenty of lovers of the tool company on this board. But in the end they gave me weeks of runaround, a $150 in store credit for future purchases (thanks a lot!)...AND I GOT A $325 bill for tracking down and wooing an independent machine tech to come to my shop. I'll never buy another tool from them again. And I am consequently becoming quite particular about the retailers with whom I'd do business.

When I buy used I expect the purchase to be a 50/50 crap shoot unless I am friends with current owner, not with new equipment.

Once burned, twice shy.

Richard Coers

03-10-2011, 10:06 PM

No Matt, I've been woodworking for almost 40 years and I have never had to tear down a machine and place two orders for parts before I could use it. Heck that even includes a saw from Montgomery Wards in the beginning. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever gotten anything that didn't work the first time I used it. But then again, my memory isn't too good. I couldn't even remember what you said the other day. LOL! I am positive that every single one of my woodworking machines could be plugged in and used. Adjusted yes, but never had one that I couldn't use. I think I'm so frustrated on this because there so few moving parts on a band saw, and I paid extra for the larger machine with cast iron wheels.
I asked for others opinions, that is what the poll was for. Sorry I didn't quote you correctly. Thanks to everyone.

johnny means

03-10-2011, 10:27 PM

When I go through the drive through at McDonalds I expect them to get my order right. Yet, if they don't I'm not shocked upset or willing to make a big deal of it. When I eat at Red Lobster I expect the correct entree and my drink to stay filled without having to ask. As long as the entrees correct and hot it doesn't irk me to remind the waiter to refill my drink. If I am at the Peking Gourmet Inn (D.C.) I expect not to have to look at a soiled napkin for more than a few seconds before it's removed and replaced and will accept nothing less.

In short I expect companies to aim for perfection, but realize that the more I pay the closer they will get.

Matt Kestenbaum

03-10-2011, 10:31 PM

What price point machine are you buying.......the cheapest or.....Rod's high end stuff?

It makes no difference what you paid!! Only what the thing you bought claims to do and that they entered into a contract by taking your money. If the arbor runout or table flatness prevent straight cuts, then a table saw at any price is not a table saw.

Here is the law!

A promise, arising by operation of law, that something that is sold will be merchantable and fit for the purpose for which it is sold.

Every time goods are bought and sold, a sales contract is created: the buyer agrees to pay, and the seller agrees to accept, a certain price in exchange for a certain item or number of items. Sales contracts are frequently oral, unwritten agreements. The purchase of items like a candy bar hardly seems worth the trouble of drafting an agreement spelling out the buyer's expectation that the candy bar will be fresh and edible. Implied warranties protect the buyer whether or not a written sales contract exists.

Implied Warranty of Merchantability

Implied warranties come in two general types: merchantability and fitness. An implied warranty of merchantability is an unwritten and unspoken guarantee to the buyer that goods purchased conform to ordinary standards of care and that they are of the same average grade, quality, and value as similar goods sold under similar circumstances. In other words, merchantable goods are goods fit for the ordinary purposes for which they are to be used. The Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), adopted by most states, provides that courts may imply a Warranty of merchantability when (1) the seller is the merchant of such goods, and (2) the buyer uses the goods for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are sold (§ 2-314). Thus, a buyer can sue a seller for breaching the implied warranty by selling goods unfit for their ordinary purpose.

There is rarely any question as to whether the seller is the merchant of the goods sold. Nevertheless, in Huprich v. Bitto, 667 So.2d 685 (Ala. 1995), a farmer who sold defective horse feed was found not to be a merchant of horse feed. The court stated that the farmer did not hold himself out as having knowledge or skill peculiar to the sale of corn as horse feed, and therefore was not a merchant of horse feed for purposes of determining a breach of implied warranty of merchantability.

The question of whether goods are fit for their ordinary purpose is much more frequently litigated. Thomas Coffer sued the manufacturer of a jar of mixed nuts after he bit down on an unshelled filbert, believing it to have been shelled, and damaged a tooth. Coffer argued in part that the presence of the unshelled nut among shelled nuts was a breach of the implied warranty of merchantability. Unquestionably, Coffer was using the nuts for their ordinary purpose when he ate them, and unquestionably, he suffered a dental injury when he bit the filbert's hard shell. But the North Carolina appellate court held that the jar of mixed nuts was nonetheless fit for the ordinary purpose for which jars of mixed nuts are used (Coffer v. Standard Brands, 30 N.C. App. 134, 226 S.E.2d 534 [1976]). The court consulted the state agriculture board's regulations and noted that the peanut industry allows a small amount of unshelled nuts to be included with shelled nuts without rendering the shelled nuts inedible or adulterated. The court also noted that shells are a natural incident to nuts.

The policy behind the implied warranty of merchantability is basic: sellers are generally better suited than buyers to determine whether a product will perform properly. Holding the seller liable for a product that is not fit for its ordinary purpose shifts the costs of nonperformance from the buyer to the seller. This motivates the seller to ensure the product's proper performance before placing it on the market. The seller is better able to absorb the costs of a product's nonperformance, usually by spreading the risk to consumers in the form of increased prices.

The policy behind limiting the implied warranty of merchantability to the goods' ordinary use is also straightforward: a seller may not have sufficient expertise or control over a product to ensure that it will perform properly when used for nonstandard purposes.

Ken Fitzgerald

03-10-2011, 10:39 PM

Matt,

It's absolutely absurd to think that you can pay $1,000 for table saw or pay $13,000 for a table saw and get the same quality. That is an unreasonable expectation and I don't care what the law is.

Are you saying the folks who buy Tannewitz or Martin or Northfield or Hammer or other similarly priced machines are being taken advantage of ...or just being foolish......

You pay extra for quality.

Matt Kestenbaum

03-10-2011, 10:49 PM

Its about the promises that they make. Frankly, I read the OP as about machines that come out of the crate unfit to work properly...once the promise of the tool turns to differentiated benefits (zero vibration, dead flatness, accuracy to .00001, etc.) then there is absolutely the expectation that high end manufacturers should and do elevate the expectations.

The issue generally is at the low end where big claims are made and delivery on their promise is...lets say...less often enforced by law. If you sell $$$ machines and they don't do what you claim, you have a better chance of ruining a small customer base or winding up in court. Firms that sell more machines (higher volume) at bargain prices...expect to overcome reputation problems with their own messaging (ads and deals) and beat the laws by assuming its not worth trying to beat them in court.

Nobody expects to pay for a top of the line luxury car and have it run on and knock when you take the key out...or better yet it need to be able to go in reverse. Nobody buys a Ford Focus with the expectation it'll fail to run.

Ken Fitzgerald

03-10-2011, 11:18 PM

Matt,

I have Oneida, PowerMatic, General International, Ridgid, Delta, Jet, Mini-Max and Grizzly in my shop.

The Oneida, Powermatic, and Mini-Max are better quality and frankly I paid around $3,000 each ....a little less.....a little more...but in that range. I did get better fit and finish.

When I bought my Grizzly disk / oscillating spindle sander....I didn't expect as good a quality but I didn't pay as much.....and the same for my G0490X ......an equivalent 8" jointer from PM....twice as much...from Northfield....10 times higher...... I understood that I was taking a chance that I would have to play games with repair parts from the moment I opened the crate.

You have to expect you might have to return stuff to Walmart or K-mart.....it's low price stuff.....

I am the oldest of 6 kids. My father worked on oil rigs..it can be a seasonal occupation....my Mom worked in factories when we lived in areas where there were factories. I wore my fathers shoes to school my sophomore year in HS until we could afford to buy me a pair. I know what poor is. I wore Japanese made clothing in the 60's when 1 washing would destroy the thread work and a new shirt. Low price and lesser quality is not a new problem. I don't take buying the cheapest product lightly because of my childhood experiences but you have to have reasonable expectations.

It's not reasonable to think you can buy on price alone and get the highest quality. Sorry.....that's setting yourself up to be disappointed.

The business model that a lot of companies in the US are using today is this very one. You can rant, rave and whine about it but in the end, it is what it is.

Point blank....buying US made products is not a solution either. Since the late 70's, Made in the USA has NOT meant you would get great quality. With few tools being made here in the US, that's not a solution either.

The US consumer bought into the Walmart/K-Mart buying philosophy where lower prices is the primary concern when shopping. This is part of the reason business models like this used by tool manufacturers works so well.

Beyond that, most of the companies manufacturing woodworking tools are aimed at the hobbyist/amateur woodworker. Of the 58,000+ members here at SMC, most probably couldn't afford to buy the most of the tools they have if they had to buy TRUE professional quality tools. I am not talking about the cheap ones that call brand themselves as professional quality. I am talking about the TRUE professional quality tools. Most of us either couldn't afford them or wouldn't justify them for a hobby.

Obviously companies are delivering more tools that work than not work or they couldn't stay in business as the cost of repair parts and shipping would eat up their profits.

However, the good deliveries don't get as much "press" as the rants of those that aren't so good.

In the end, part of the chance you take when you buy the lesser priced tools, is you may have to deal with a less than desireable situation. That's the price you pay for a lower price. I accept that when I make those buying decisions and take the responsibility for it.......and I stand a good chance of getting a machine that is a lot of bang for the buck.

The alternative decision is to save your money and buy a higher priced, maybe better quality machine....or give up the hobby......

Don't think I'm not sympathetic to people getting new tools that don't work. I am.

Neil Bosdet

03-11-2011, 12:50 AM

Paul Johnstone

03-11-2011, 9:41 AM

There isn't an option for my answer. I expect to buy and receive what I pay for. I have had excellent results buying local and through mail order. I've also had some issues both ways. Mail order doesn't concern me. Misrepresentation and crappy workmanship does. I go with companies I've come to trust or who come recommended by folks I trust.

Yep, that's why you need to get feedback from people that have used a given vendor. And you have to make sure you get the feedback from a live person or a website that is not sponsored or censored for the benefit of an advertiser.
That's one reason why the woodworking magazine reviews are totally useless. I can read the specs and know that Brand X has an extra inch of quill depth or whatever.. (Amazingly, the magazines leave stuff like this out in their comparisons sometime).

American consumers largely buy on price, not quality. Just about every company on the planet caters to this to some degree.

Ken Fitzgerald

03-11-2011, 10:14 AM

David Hostetler

03-11-2011, 10:33 AM

I fully expect the manufacturer to make good on a working machine. Now I DO expect to have to tune, adjust ANY new machine, I don't care what price point, but say for example a table saw with a warped trunion, the manufacturer should either pay to ship it back, fix it, and return it to me, or send a tech out to me to fix it. BARRING that, they had BETTER give me compensation at what my billing time is worth, and that's not cheap!

Ken Fitzgerald

03-11-2011, 10:48 AM

Paul Johnstone

03-11-2011, 10:54 AM

Reading anything on the internet whether the site has advertising or not should be done with a little skepticism. Advertising has nothing to do with it.

You can't verify the truthfulness of a rant or the skills, knowledge or personality of the person ranting.

Well, I tend to believe the vast majority of people that complain have a legitimate reason. They aren't just making up a story for entertainment. Most of these "rants" have pictures or enough detail to back them up. Do they blow the issue out of proportion? Maybe, but they are still unsatistified customers for a reason.

How are we supposed to verify all the happy customers are really happy? For all we know, a company could be sending in moles to write false glowing reviews of their products?

When all negative opinions get deleted, the site becomes worthless for gathering information about a product.

Harry Hagan

03-11-2011, 11:41 AM

My experience with “mail ordering machinery” started after the local Woodcraft store refused to assist me in getting a shop-full of Powermatic equipment into my shop. This was back in '06 and after the owner had printed the grand total on my list of Powermatic equipment: cabinet saw, bandsaw, drill press, jointer, sanding station, mortiser, planer, mobile bases for each machine, assorted accessories, plus a Jet drum sander.

As I was writing out the check I said, "Please call me a day in advance before you deliver this. I’ll need to make arrangements to be there when it arrives." He replied, "We don’t deliver. You’ll need to find a lift truck or some other way to load it yourself."

I looked at him and then proceeded to fill in the rather substantial total on the check I was writing. Making sure his fingers were on the check as I handed it to him—I pulled it back and said, "I just remembered, I don’t deliver either."

To make a long story shorter, several days later a freight truck delivered a truckload of machinery from Amazon.com. That was when my priorities went from trying to patronize local businesses to taking care of “Numero Uno” and his pocketbook. I saved a boatload of money and the machinery was delivered and placed inside my garage at no charge. Nothing was damaged, and everything assembled without a hitch and ran smoothly.

That was several years ago and my opinion of Amazon has diminished somewhat but I’d still consider a major internet purchase and routinely save money and usually get better service dealing with internet based companies.

Neil Brooks

03-11-2011, 11:41 AM

When all negative opinions get deleted, the site becomes worthless for gathering information about a product.

IMHO, WORSE than worthless.

Having NO information is useless.

BAD information (which ... I think ... is what you're describing) can be harmful.

This basic discussion has been had, and had again, on the Creek. My basic position hasn't changed: nobody wins, when we accept an inferior product -- not the consumer, and not the company.

I don't think the Wal-Mart analogy is particularly apt, though, unless we're talking about something you bought at Wal-Mart that weighs 400#.

Machinery is kind of a separate animal. If you put hours into assembly, and it simply isn't right ... that's a thing that doesn't have too many equivalents.

A car would be one ... if it didn't have wheels and a motor. And even then ... if it can't get to service, under its own power, most of the time, it gets fetched by the seller, and then fixed.

The particulars of our major purchases are pretty particular.

I DO agree, though, that my expectation correlates pretty closely with how much I spent, and -- even then -- only over time.

The cheap HF stuff I FIRST bought ... I rather hoped would work as advertised. Only after years did I decide that ... that wasn't quite the deal ;)

Ken Fitzgerald

03-11-2011, 12:19 PM

Ruhi Arslan

03-11-2011, 1:01 PM

I have not voted because I am not quite sure if I understand what are the options to vote for. Who is repairing or rebuilding what? Why would I expect to send it back "if usable for repair"? Not sure... :confused:

Regardless where I buy it from, if it is a heavy equipment, I would expect the seller to take care of it, if it does NOT do what it is supposed to do regardless of the cost. "Taking care" means sending someone if necessary and practical or arrange it to be picked up and replace/repair it in a timely manner.
If it is high-end "expensive" I do NOT expect to "tune" it out of the box to make it function properly.

Tom Walz

03-11-2011, 1:05 PM

Far and away the great majority of tools do get delivered in 100% condition.

The kind of service and quality you get depends on what you buy and from whom you buy it.

We sell an awful lot of Woodpeckers tools and just had our first real problem, ever, with them.

We placed an order and they promptly shipped it to California. Unfortunately the customer was in Idaho. The customer waited three weeks and then called to see where his order was. (Incidentally, this is much too long to wait if your order doesn't arrive.) Once we realized that it had been shipped to the wrong address we immediately offered to replace it and ship it overnight at our expense. We told Woodpeckers about the problem and they shipped an entirely new order the same day and they picked up the $229 shipping. We offered the customer a $50 refund or a $50 credit.

We never did find out what happened to the order that went to California.

By the time it was all through woodpeckers was out about $500. We were out about $50 and some time.

Again, the point of the story is that there is a huge range of how people do business. As a retailer we want a manufacturer who really believes in quality and customer service as woodpeckers does. We have been burned by manufacturers with quality products and bad service and vice versa.

As a retailer I can say that almost everything we sell arrives to the customer on time and in good condition. When there is a problem we think the customer is entitled to be able to speak to someone who really cares about their problem and who has authority to fix it. This certainly includes replacing damaged parts immediately and by overnight shipment if the customer requests it. In addition, I think it is just good business to compensate the customer somehow for their time and trouble.

We are certainly not the only company that does this. Personally I have always had great service from Lee Valley, Rockler, Cabella’s, Bridge City and many others.

Neil Brooks

03-11-2011, 1:09 PM

Neil,

The Walmart analogy is applicable from a price vs quality standpoint.....You could buy Northfield, Tannewitz, Hammer, Martin......pay more and you have a right to expect more...

And if you don't get more why pay more?

Okay. That's fair, and I see what you're saying.

But ... if you can buy a $3,000 product from WallyWorld -- one that weights 400 pounds, and must be assembled, by you, at your house ... I think the rules should change ... if only a bit.

So ... (here we go :)) Grizzly sells low-priced AND high-priced machines. Hard to say, then, if they're a "discounter," or "low end."

As you know, you can pay more for A machine, from Grizzly than you can probably buy A Northfield machine for (not the same machine, obviously).

I don't mean to be argumentative, but .... even a discount store ... if they sell a particularly expensive product ... that is TOUGH to get in place, and "up-and-running" should distinguish between THAT product and the dead-blow hammer they just sold you for $7.99 :)

And since the OP referenced "machinery," THAT's the ONLY reason I have a slightly different take.

And ... since "tone" never appears in posts ... let me just reiterate: you and I have comparable backgrounds, at least for part of our respective careers, so I value and honor your opinion on this.

Sincerely :)

Ken Fitzgerald

03-11-2011, 1:48 PM

Neil,

I can only state.......I believe you should get what you paid for........if you paid more....you have a right to expect more....but if you paid less, having to deal with fewer inspections might have saved you some money but you might also have to deal with some issues. That's the potential cost of getting a "good deal" on a machine......but you have to be reasonable.

I realize we are talking a tool that could weigh 400-1,000 lbs. but in the end, the amount profit of in the lower cost machines prohibits the kind of service people wish they could get. I suspect that the manufacturers of my more expensive tools would require me to send them back or accept replacement parts and do the work myself. But even then.......I didn't pay the price of the high end Northfield or Tannewitz or Martin.......

Retailers could provide it at a cost to the selling price of the machines....and a lot of us wouldn't be hobbiest woodworkers as a result because we couldn't or wouldn't pay those prices.

Hey....Hammer....Felder.....Tannewitz.....Martin.. ..Northfield....they'll be happy to take your money......

I will leave you now....I have toilet tank to disassemble. I paid high dollars for it and it's been leaking into the bowl the last couple months. The LOML is gone and will be home in a few days. I promised I'd fix it before she got home. I contacted the manufacturer...ordered a repacement part.....Paid big bucks for the part as it's different and there are no generic substitutes. I need to buy a large sponge so I can get the last of the water out of the bowl before removing it.

If you have a couple hours I will tell you how much I hate my own cooking and the only thing I hate more is plumbing.

Matt Day

03-11-2011, 2:13 PM

I'm just glad I don't work in the Customer Service departments!

I have to agree with Ken, that you get what you pay for. That being said, I think tools from Grizzly/Shop Fox and the like for example are an excellent bang for your buck.

I would like to think that all negative reviews that are written clearly and not a rant are left posted on this site. I would be disappointed if they are removed for advertising reasons.

Neil Brooks

03-11-2011, 2:14 PM

If you have a couple hours I will tell you how much I hate my own cooking and the only thing I hate more is plumbing.

Well ... for good or for ill ... there's a rather difficult-to-deny connection, between them ;)

Good luck ! I'm with you: there's a REASON plumbers are well paid !

Paul McGaha

03-11-2011, 2:24 PM

I didnt vote because I didnt see any selections that suited me.

Most of the tools in my shop were bought new and from internet stores (Toolcrib at Amazon.com, Toolsplus, etc.). So far I've been lucky and none of them came in damaged or with any serious issues. If I had one with a minor issue that I thought I could fix myself I would do that. Anything serious (any kind of rebuild) would not be done by me. It would either be done by a service tech or the tool would go back.

I probably should do a better job of supporting my local Woodcraft for this sort of purchase. It's good to have the stores available and I would miss it if it wasnt here. I would guess I go the store monthly but I dont tend to spend a lot there. Drawer slides, knobs, finish matereial.

PHM

Matt Kestenbaum

03-11-2011, 3:40 PM

Neil,

I can only state.......I believe you should get what you paid for........if you paid more....you have a right to expect more....but if you paid less, having to deal with fewer inspections might have saved you some money but you might also have to deal with some issues. That's the potential cost of getting a "good deal" on a machine......but you have to be reasonable.

I realize we are talking a tool that could weigh 400-1,000 lbs. but in the end, the amount profit of in the lower cost machines prohibits the kind of service people wish they could get. I suspect that the manufacturers of my more expensive tools would require me to send them back or accept replacement parts and do the work myself. But even then.......I didn't pay the price of the high end Northfield or Tannewitz or Martin.......

Retailers could provide it at a cost to the selling price of the machines....and a lot of us wouldn't be hobbiest woodworkers as a result because we couldn't or wouldn't pay those prices.

Hey....Hammer....Felder.....Tannewitz.....Martin.. ..Northfield....they'll be happy to take your money......

Ken - Don't you think there is any minimum or floor on product performance? If the motor won't turn on...you're thinking is, "well I didn't pay top dollar so that's what i should expect to get!" Really?? Sort like Stockholm syndrome for tool users...I bought this car at a special end of year clearance price with no interest financing so I deserve to sit by the side of the road waiting for AAA.

Ken Fitzgerald

03-11-2011, 4:13 PM

Matt,

As an invited, unpaid volunteer Moderator, I can tell you that there has never been any discussions that negative reviews with supportive factual information be removed, edited, deleted etc. That has never been discussed in any form. Negative reviews with supported facts about equipment sold by advertisers here is just as much fair game. Anybody that wants to believe different ....they're are wrong...they are mistaken.....they WANT to believe that and there is nothing I or anybody else can do to convince them differently.

Generic rants against retailers without supporting factual information aren't allowed. It doesn't give the retailer an opportunity to check their records, verify the facts about the incident, defend themselves and is unfair to them.

Irate, emotional rants where both parties have argued in public view and there is a huge discrepancy in the facts as both parties see them will be removed. As Keith has said we are not in the position to be judge and jury and often, these arguments should be decided by a court of law and not SMC.

Frankly...I don't know who advertises here. I have the advertisements turned off and the only time I see them is when I read about somebody having a problem with the forum. Moderators have a slightly different view of the website, so sometimes I log out and come in as a "Guest" to see what others are seeing in an effort to help resolve their issue. Then and only then do I see any advertisements.

There are a number of people who need to read the Terms Of Service they agreed to abide when they registered here at SMC. All we try to do is interpret and enforce the TOSs. They are designed to try to be fair to everyone involved..... members and businesses.

There was a time when SMC wasn't' relying on advertising dollars for financial support. There were a number of people who claimed then the staff at SMC was favoring the retailers. In my years as a Moderator favoring retailers, businesses or advertisers has NEVER been a subject of discussion. It's just not true.

and with that I need to go back to the hardware store to get a wrench that will fit a 6" or larger nut on a flush valve......:(

David Hostetler

03-11-2011, 4:35 PM

David,

If you pay top dollar I would agree with you.........but when you buy the low price item, I think you have to accept some of the responsibility. If not, why would anyone ever buy the higher price item?

Do you have to take things back to Walmart or does Walmart send someone out to fix it?

In today's world, quality is expensive. If every online retailer provided what you expect, you wouldn't be buying from them as they would be as expensive as the local retailer selling the same item.

True, but Walmart has local centers, where I can take returns. Grizzly for example doesn't. Like I said it depends. Is the issue a fault of the machine, damage in shipping that sort of thing? Or is it an adjustment type of issue? I fully expect to have to adjust and tune each and every single machine from my cheapest Harbor Freight machine, to, well in my case my high end stuff isn't the woodworking, so say my Snap On impact wrench. What I don't think I should be responsible for is shipping damage, or just manufacturing sloppiness. And again, I don't care if the vendor is Harbor Freight or Laguna. And from what I have been reading, users have had an easier time with Harbor Freight's customer service than Laguna... (or Powermatic, or Delta...) Not praising HF in the slightest. Just hate what customer service from the so called "quality" vendors has become... It would seem by your logic, the high $$ tool companies should be the ones bending over backwards for customers, while HF should just be giving lip service to customers... So yeah, why then would somebody pay extra for the premium brand?

Now I understand your assertion that buying on lower price usually means lower quality. However there is a certain amount of "as delivered" function that should be expected no matter who the vendor is.

To use the food analogy on a more Tex Mex scale...

When I go to lunch at the local Taqueria, I expect my order to be right, or the place to make it right without hitting me in the wallet. I do however expect more of a chance of getting the order messed up, and virtually no service. Just walk up, order my food, pick up the tray sit own and eat or carry it out...

But let's say I go to Estaban's Mexican Cantina. I expect my Fajitas to be top notch, made to order with added stuff like Nopales, grilled peppers, and pico de gallo, my Margaritas to be perfect, with Patron Tequila keeping the Jose Cuervo junk for the tourists, and never empty, everything to be spot on perfect. I expect to pay substantially more for that level of service, and quality, but I will not accept having to pay extra to any business to straighten out a mess they caused. I don't care if it's belt sanders or burritos... (I have lived in Texas FAR too long I fear!)

Scott Vigder

03-11-2011, 4:41 PM

I started woodworking as a hobby in 2004. Since then I have made the following purchases:

Delta X5 Table saw from Hartville Tool. Brought it home and set it up. It was missing the correct wing (got two lefts) and Delta immediately sent out the proper part. Therefore, buying it "hands-on" still produced a defective product that needed attention before being used.

Delta 735 Planer. Got a great deal at Hartville tool during the annual spring sale. The planer lasted two years and quit completely. Delta replaced it with a brand new one. Once again, the "hands-on" purchase required further attention.

Grizzly 8" G0490 jointer. Mail order arrived with slight dent in cabinet, since it did not effect the mechanics I elected to accept it. Four years later it still runs fine. Mail order, slight problem, but nothing that affected the usefulness.

Metabo 12" SCMS. Mail order, and I can't recall from where. No problems. Great saw!

Craftsman 14" Professional bandsaw. Picked it up, assembled it, no problems. Replaced the blade with a higher quality one.

General Benchtop mortiser: great tool, and it replaced a Frisch that I thought was underpowered. Picked it up at Hartville Tool, no problems.

Delta 1.5hp dust collector. Hatville Tool , picked it up and assembled. No problems.

Delta Drill Press from WoodCraft. Self-assembly, no problems.

I find myself lucky- what needed attention was easily fixed or replaced. Frankly, I don't think it matters where you get the tool. Even if you buy it at the store, it has to be shipped to their location, so shipping is involved regardless. Do I prefer the hands-on experience? You bet! Have I had great mail-order experience? You bet!

David Hostetler

03-11-2011, 4:52 PM

Neil,

The Walmart analogy is applicable from a price vs quality standpoint.....You could buy Northfield, Tannewitz, Hammer, Martin......pay more and you have a right to expect more...

And if you don't get more why pay more?

No matter how much you paid, you have a right to expect an item to perform the function it was advertised to perform, in the manner it was advertised to perform that function. It makes no difference if it is a 50 cent piece of candy, or a 50 thousand dollar car.

Ken Fitzgerald

03-11-2011, 5:16 PM

David,

That's right but it's absurd and unreasonable to expect or believe that a cheaper item will have the same quality or should a defect occur, that the it will be taken care of onsite. When you buy at the low end budget prices you didn' pay for that type of service and in fact, if you look at the retailer's warrantee or sales contract...that type of service isn't mentioned. You should get what you paid for yes...but when you pay Yugo prices, it's unreasonable to expect Cadillac service.....

Scott Vigder

03-12-2011, 8:42 AM

David,but when you pay Yugo prices, it's unreasonable to expect Cadillac service.....

How refreshing to see Yugo references alive and well!

Ken Fitzgerald

03-12-2011, 10:10 AM

Scott....I am surprised I remembered them.....they were around so briefly.

Shawn Pixley

03-12-2011, 11:07 AM

I didn't respond to the poll as my choice wasn't represented there. I do order some equipment via the internet. I fully expect it to work to the particular items (not generically) expectations / tolerances, and be undamaged. In my experience they have all met this but one item that had a cracked cover which the OEM replaced.

Unfortunately the thread has deteriorated into a larger discussion of quality / performance vs price. I think that most people would acknowledge that both Honda and BMW make a quality car. They both perform the basic function of going down the road safely and dependably. Some people seem to imply that they should be therfore of equal quality and performance, regardless of price. The price and performance of an entry level Honda Civic (a fine car) is not equivelant to the quality, price and performance of a BMW M5 (another fine car). But to expect that these cars should be equivelant is unrealistic in my opinion. This to me demonstrates a lack of sophistication as a buyer to those who would like to apply a "one size fits all" standard to these types of discussions.

If we took this to the late night infomercial arena, is there anyone that really belives that the kitchen knives sold there are the equivelent of a good Messermeister? I would not expect the infomercial version to be as sharp, as good of steel, or as finely crafted as the Messermeister. But I could expect the infomercial version to come undamaged and the supplier be acountable to that.

Sean Nagle

03-12-2011, 11:15 AM

Not sure your Honda / BMW is a very good analogy. BMWs are great while under warranty. After the warranty has expired I'd rather have the Honda.

Neil Brooks

03-12-2011, 12:02 PM

Shawn Pixley

03-12-2011, 6:15 PM

Not sure your Honda / BMW is a very good analogy. BMWs are great while under warranty. After the warranty has expired I'd rather have the Honda.

The original post quelstion was on ordering equipment not the overall lifecycle of equipment. I feel my analogy stands to that test.

Maybe I've been either lucky or good with cars but in or out of warranty, my experience has been identical.

Shawn Pixley

03-12-2011, 6:24 PM

Shawn:

I think there's a different point to be made:

PERFORMANCE is something that will clearly differ, and -- in a perfect world -- correlates with price.

Whether or not a thing lives up to its OWN promises of performance, though, is another matter.

I will NOT complain that my Yugo can't accelerate with an M5, but I WILL complain if it stalls at every stoplight.

I think this point may get lost in these discussions.

I don't expect my 1.75HP table saw to rip with the speed of a 5HP saw, but I DO expect the table and fence to be flat, and the arbor runout NOT to exceed the manufacturer's OWN tolerance range (, etc., etc.)

I think we are in violent agreement. But others in this thread seem to imply an absolute standard to an item (say a tablesaw to use your analog), my point being that a benchtop saw my be well designed and constructed for its particular niche, but still not comparable to a Unisaw. To expect the manfacturer to remedy "defects" that are the product of the consumer's subjectivity are an unreasonable standard.

Rick Moyer

03-13-2011, 10:57 AM

Just curious:

The new "machinery" I have has mostly come from a certain "mail order" entity, but I am close enough to always pick up myself at their facilty; so I have a question about purchases of machinery from a local place.
Is it common for the machine to be out of the crate? Does the local place remove the machine from it's shipping crate and set it up? Do they then put it back in the crate, or do you take it home "naked"? I always assumed that unless you bought the floor model it would still be crated as it came from the manufacturer, but I don't know.

Paul Johnstone

03-13-2011, 1:00 PM

I will leave you now....I have toilet tank to disassemble. I paid high dollars for it and it's been leaking into the bowl the last couple months. The LOML is gone and will be home in a few days. I promised I'd fix it before she got home. I contacted the manufacturer...ordered a repacement part.....Paid big bucks for the part as it's different and there are no generic substitutes. I need to buy a large sponge so I can get the last of the water out of the bowl before removing it.
.

This is a good example.. Suppose you went on a plumbing forum, and someone was soliticting opinions on this toilet, and you repeated just what you said here.
Your honesty was questioned and proof was asked for.. You take pictures of the broken part and pictures of you fixing it.. Then the post is removed because that toilet manufacturer advertises on the same website.. :) Honestly, you can't tell me that you'd still consider that plumbing forum to be a reliable source of information.

Hey, any website owner has the right to do whatever they want.. but that changes the perception of it. I am not here to pick a fight, but let's don't deny that negative posts are removed for questionable "reasons" to protect advertisers. It really insults our intelligence to deny it.. I can accept that advertisers are protected here. Like I said, the magazines do it to.. No biggie.. I just come here for WWing info, not product feedback.