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View Full Version : Yet again, another "what laser" question



mark healy
03-10-2011, 6:01 AM
Hi all,

I have been lurking in the backgrund on and off here for a year.
Sometimes I learn valuable information...other times, I am totally out of my depth with the detailed technical knowledge that is here!

Basically I need a laser engraving machine

I am able to source the material - acrylic awards & jade glass awards.
So, a small engraving area will suffice - maybe 40cm squared.

The engraving would consist of a 2-D logo & some text, so I assume a 30-45watt machine would do. (moslty one piece at a time)

I am totally new (well, not even new - totally unfamiliar is more accurate) with laser engravers! As I am getting my materials from Asia, I had contemplated getting the machine from China also, but have read that they are not as "plug-and-go" ready as soem of their US, EU counterparts.

I had looked into the usual brands, epilog zing was about 10,000EUR latt time I checked, Trotec Rayjet was about 7,000GBP.

I am in the EU & I am wondering whether it would be best to source a machine from Germany, as they produce many of the lasers in the machines, would it be wise to consider this route. I also may be able to get a better price from there.

So I guess, I am looking for advice on what spec I should be aiming for & if anyone has any recommendations on machines I should consider - hopefully more affordable than those I have mentioned.

Thanks for reading this long thread & any help is greatly appreciated!
Mark

Rodne Gold
03-10-2011, 6:51 AM
Buy a 2nd hand small euro/USA 25watter (you wont need more for glass and acrylic engraving) with some sort of warrantee on the tube if you not at all hands on , otherwise a ok made 300x500 50w from china will cost $2k or so , there might be a local importer in your area that can sell you one and give some support..
Up to you what direction to take. IMO it doesnt make a difference in terms of your technical ability if the more expensive laser does not have a support agent near you..We have support 1600 km away for my GCC's and we have to do everything ourselves anyway.

paul mott
03-10-2011, 7:13 AM
Mark,

1) As long as you are mechanically minded and can do minor mechanical / electrical engineering fixes yourself then a China imported laser can be good value for money, it can also be total rubbish and this can be pretty much luck of the draw.
2) I don't know about Germany but in US there are importers who do all the setting up and necessary replacements to a China imported machine before it is delivered to the customer and they also hold some spares and can provide a level of service / back-up etc.
3) Possibly the best option is to purchase a machine which is made or at least assembled in your own country with full service facilities.

The price will vary considerably between these options and given the choice I think I would probably choose option (2)

Don't know if this helps.

Paul.

Michael Hunter
03-10-2011, 7:36 AM
In the UK there are quite a number of new machine suppliers that have popped up recently, supplying Chinese made lasers re-branded under their own company names.
These machines are typically 3 to 4 times the price of the cheapo ones on ebay, but under half the cost of a "big-name" brands made in the USA or Europe. Presumably they would come with some sort of guarantee and spare parts/servicing would be available (check carefully!!!!).

I should imagine that the situation is similar in mainland Europe, but if not, then apart from the extra transport costs buying from the UK should be viable.

Trade shows aimed at selling to schools/universities attract these low cost machine sellers.

Dan Hintz
03-10-2011, 9:12 AM
1) As long as you are mechanically minded and can do minor mechanical / electrical engineering fixes yourself then a China imported laser can be good value for money, it can also be total rubbish and this can be pretty much luck of the draw.
I'll add, however, that many who purchase one of these machines thinking they can solve most any mechanical problem when they come up are missing a big part of the picture... software and electronics. Once in a while a post will pop up where the hardware dongle for the included software doesn't work, or a motherboard goes bad and it's near impossible for most to get a replacement.

Just something else to consider, even if you're mechanically inclined... not everything is so easily repaired as a broken pulley.

Rodne Gold
03-10-2011, 10:05 AM
Dan , most of the lasers use a generic motherboard and sort of genric software,I checked on that when ordering mine. The spares prices are real cheap anyway , MB is less than $250, steppers $46, LCD display board $86, Lens $40, Mirrors $22, Bearings $6 , Laser PSU $160, tube $150
I ordered about enough spares to build another machine :) It's still a great proposition , the price of these machines is so low they are almost throw away. If I can get a yr or 2 production from em , I'm happy. A lot of my bigger customers have bought their own chinese machines cos of the low cost compared to having stuff done at me with more expensive capital equipment and are actually doing quite well with em, they far less technical than I and they manage....
One issue is dealing with the right company , you must deal with a manufacturer in China , not an agent or a rebadger. The Company I have ordered from build a lot of the machines that others rebadge or market as their own , CE and ISO92001 certified etc . Skype and e-mail tech support as well ,with ppl that can speak english.
Things have changed since the bad ol days of rubbish stuff coming from china. As with any other investment in machinery , do your homework.
Some Chinese laser resellers are total rip offs too- we have a local co that is selling more or less the same laser that I am importing at a whopping $27 000 (R200 000) : My cost for 2 lasers and a gazillion spares is $9500!!!!! Their 80w tube replacement cost is $1200 and mine is $150.
(same tube) They charge this premium for their "support". I could buy 5 machines for the price of their one and if 3 bust , im still 2 to the good.
Anyway , I'm off to china in april for 2 weeks , one of my missions is to investigate some laser mnfgrs , a fibre or high powered YAG is something I can use , as is a 200w+ large format (2.5m x 1.25m) machine or something that can cut up to 2mm stainless , I don't have the wherewithall to afford mainstream on these so i'll take my chances..
One thing you alos have to besr in mind is that USA machines and some euro machines , dependant where in the world you are , are actually SUBSTANTIALLY more expensive than in thier native countries. A $10k machine in USA can cost $15k elsewhere- making things even more difficult

David Fairfield
03-10-2011, 10:05 AM
My epilog has been used quite a bit over the years, but works flawlessly. Hear the same about Universals, etc. So I would be comfortable buying a used American made machine, as long as the indications were the previous owner maintained it according to the manual.

Mike Null
03-10-2011, 10:58 AM
I don't know what a Trotec costs in the EU but I have met some of Trotec's Austrian tech support folks and they are outstanding.

Dan Hintz
03-10-2011, 11:43 AM
Rodney,

I'm sure you'll be too busy playing to do this, but I'd love to see a write-up on this new company's machine similar to what James J. did on his Chinese machines (along with a 2-yr followup). The biggest drawback in my mind to the smaller machines is the lack of driver support... I want to print directly from CorelDRAW (or similar). Some of the bigger systems are offering such an option (or so I hear), but I haven't seen any posts on the quality of that driver. Having used such systems in the past and being comfortable with more "modern" systems, you're in a better position than many here to critique a setup such as that, so I'm hopeful you'll do just that. I keep waffling on a fiber system, and the driver support is the main anchor holding me back. I don't want to send every file I do through a conversion process first.

mark healy
03-16-2011, 6:44 AM
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the repsonses.

When I start hearing circuits, motherboards and wiring being mentioned Rodney, I get a bit nervous I must admit. I shalll be the first to say, my knowledge of machinery & d.i.y. skills would not be the best. So bearing this in mind, would a chinese machine be out of the question for me (having close friends from china, i would think i could get a decent price on one, if i were to know where to look - but if it was a case of get a cheap product & then spend the next year repairing it, i'd rather avoid.)

One of the stories on this forum that worries me is about engraving acrylic - am I right in saying it seems to catch fire quite often?

Hi Mike, I had looked into a trotec rayjet (size of which should suffice for me), but the price of this was around £7,000 (approx $11,000USD)
The epilog in ireland, Zing model was around €10,000 (approx $14,000)

If you guys think I might be better off considering these products at a premium, then I shall consider it, but as Rodney mentioned, when paying over the odds for "warranty", you could often have a backup machine or two, so its how to prioritise I guess..

Michael, would you have a list of any of these UK companies selling the imported chinese ones with a warranty & back-up?
Where would I find about about trade shows on in Ireland or the UK, or does anyone know of upcoming ones?

Thanks again for the feedback!

Mark

Michael Hunter
03-16-2011, 7:25 AM
Mark

If you have been looking at Epilog, I imagine that you have talked to CSI - just ask them which shows they are going to (I think that they go to them all).
There is also "Sign and Digital" at the NEC, Birningham in April, though that show tends to attract the big names rather than the cheaper minnows.
Identify Engraving (now Trotec) in Bristol were doing a buy-as-you-use thing on the RayJet. The end cost worked out about 10,000GBP, but you could wait until you had a real customer before paying for machine time, so maybe more cost effective than HP or a bank loan.

On the acrylic/fire thing the answer is YES! - but, as someone else said in a recent thread, it ONLY happens if you leave the machine unattended. Stand there and watch it and all is OK.
My own experience is the Romark sign materials are much more prone to flareups than plain acrylic.

Rodne Gold
03-16-2011, 7:39 AM
Well , let's put it this way , if you are not near a dealer or distributor with a tech guy that can come visit you immediately , you are more or less on your own re getting a machine thats down up and running immediately. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to replace a motherboard and stuff like tube alignment you would have to learn anyway. Most users , not in the USA do not have the resources that those there do , your dealer might be like mine with my GCC machines - sort of okish technically wise , but have to phone the parent co in Taiwan for anything slightly more complex , it often takes 2 days to get a response and we have managed to muddle thru on our own. They also have to sometimes fly parts in from Taiwan. Takes a week...
We bought our lasers from one Co , they were bought by another , then that co went bang and left the support to yet another Co - so basically we don't have the original Co to fall back on. Being non USA based , we have not found buying mainstream to be as painless and user friendly as is made out to be , neither have we found the tubes to be as reliable or to give the service they are claimed to give , I have been thru a LOT of tubes.. Forget 20 000 hours...more like 3000 if I'm lucky. (roughly 1.5 yrs average per tube)
I know quite a few ppl who have bought Chinese machines and it's not a case of repairing the thing all day long and nursing it to get lousy output - theirs seem to run well.. lots of scare stories are just that , scare stories to protect overpriced local stuff
(I'm somewhat guilty of believing em , hence me importing a shedload of spares - prolly wont ever be used - but it's real cheap "insurance")
A lot of nationalistic posturing too - "buy British/South African/American"
The Co I'm buying from in China give me a yr guarantee on the machine , 3 months on tube , mirrors and lenses , whatever thats worth I dunno...
They are the
Shandong Shenhui Laser Science and Technology R&D CO.,LTD
http://www.shenhuilaser.com.cn

Just do your homework re whichever way you go , in respect of the co you buying from and whatever promises , get em in writing.
Im gonna go visit em in late April so can tell you on my return if they a small garden shed in some remote village deep in china or they are like their website portrays em.. :)



Acrylic will catch alight no matter what machine you use , using air assist and never leaving the machine to cut it and other flammable materials unattended is the solution, My GCC's do come with a "fireguard" option which shuts the machine down if there is a fire. You could probably rig up some sort of C02 fire supression system triggered by a smoke alarm if you wish.

Dan Hintz
03-16-2011, 9:51 AM
One of the stories on this forum that worries me is about engraving acrylic - am I right in saying it seems to catch fire quite often?
Engraving? No.

Cutting? Absolutely a risk! It doesn't happen often once you get your settings nailed down, but it can and does happen from time to time. You have to watch it like a hawk and never be more than a few feet from the laser. I keep an electronics-safe fire extinguisher next to my system.



Considering the price difference between domestic and Asian machines, particularly at the larger bed sizes and wattages, it may make sense to some to purchase an Asian machine and eat the downtime should something go wrong. The biggest failure point on Asian machines is the tube... due to QC issues, they may fail in a week or they may fail in 10 years (their MTBF is probably creeping up on that for metal tubes, but their infant mortality rate is still significantly higher, and those failures are why you see a lot of horror stories). Metal tubes often fail when the RF board goes kaput, but the gas mixture is usually okay... but you can purchase 1-2 glass tubes for the price of a metal tube repair. Spend enough time on this forum and you'll see a surprising number of Epilog motherboard failures, encoding strips that need cleaning, and ULS driver bugs. Choose your poison.

Martin Boekers
03-16-2011, 11:17 AM
Rodne or Dan,

A question I don't think I've seen addressed here, Is a water cooled laser or Chinese laser at 80watt close to the same as say an 80watt Epilog or ULS?

Just wondering about how each is graded and the efficiency. Does the water cooled one (from what I see they last maybe 2 years) have a curve of
power loss or do they lose power quickly before the quit?


Thanks!

Ross Moshinsky
03-16-2011, 11:28 AM
If you're looking for a more mainstream option for a laser, New Hermes is a French company. I know all the software is produced in France and I believe they produce machines in EU as well as Georgia, USA. I'm relatively happy with my LS100.

Dan Hintz
03-16-2011, 11:42 AM
A question I don't think I've seen addressed here, Is a water cooled laser or Chinese laser at 80watt close to the same as say an 80watt Epilog or ULS?
Generally no, though outliers are always a possibility. The Asian glass tubes appear to be rated for the calculated wattage (which is based upon length of the tube between mirrors) and quite often appear to fall a bit short wattage wise (at least from the few I've been able to measure, as well as what others have posted their measurements as). The domestic metal tubes are generally underrated, showing 10-15% higher output than their listed ratings, some have posted ratings that approach 25% higher. Hopefully Rodney can provide some more data points on his glass tubes. I know my 60W-rated metal measured at 73W when I first brought it home, but all lasers tend to "cool" a bit over the first few months.


Just wondering about how each is graded and the efficiency. Does the water cooled one (from what I see they last maybe 2 years) have a curve of power loss or do they lose power quickly before the quit?
I do not have any numbers to back this up, but I imagine the RF-excited (metal) tubes will be a bit more efficient than the DC-excited (glass) tubes due to the RF-excited ionization happening across the entire gas "bubble", whereas for DC-excited it's somewhat more surface-limited. I'm not going to take into account the higher efficiency of a quality power supply, something the Asian units are still failing to include. In each case we're talking a handful of percentage points (with a bigger hand for the RF vs. DC argument), so keep it in perspective.

Temp has a major effect on output power, so you want to keep those tubes as close to room temp as possible. Metal is a better conductor of heat than glass, but water is a better conductor than air... possibly a wash there, at least until you start cooling a metal tube with water, at which point you're ahead of the pack.

Loss of power depends upon the cause. If the RF module starts to go south (metal tubes), you'll see a decent loss of power almost immediately, then possibly a slope as the unit starts to completely fail. If the DC module fails (glass tubes), it's generally an all-or-nothing situation... you might get intermittent firing, but it's usually not a slow decrease in power, just a go/no-go type of situation until the power supply finally gives in altogether. If it's a gas mixture issue, the metal tube will slowly lose power over a long period of time (if it's not due to leakage, it's due to breakdown of the mixture)... a glass tube will lose power much faster and then one day stop working altogether (this is usually due to leakage long before the mixture breaks down).

Martin Boekers
03-16-2011, 11:55 AM
Thanks Dan,

I reasoned as such that glass tubes though rated just as high as the metal ones typically are not equal as for as "performance power".

I was curious as to loss of powers also as with my metal tubes, there didn't seem to be an appreciable loss of performance until the tube
was ready to quit.

Rodne Gold
03-16-2011, 2:02 PM
Well, I was timing a 80w machine cutting 3mm acrylic and it was as least 3x faster than my 25 watt synrad...with a better quality cut , 15mm acrylic was cutting as fast as my machine does 6mm. Engraving was slower than my spirits , due to motion system, and the quality wasnt as good due to the larger spot size of the 80w laser.The 1200x 800 80w I was evaluating is more for cutting than engraving, the smaller one I ordered is for engraving. Large surface area engraving was good ,no banding or waves etc.
This was with a machine that really needed to be fine tuned and optimised to some extent. Even if the 80w really translates to the power of a 50w RF sealed tube laser - it's still good for me. I have some collimator beam expanders from 2 older dead GCC machines , will try em in my new machines when they come to see if I can improve beamquality or see what they do

The glass lasers evidently lose gas over time due to the way the ends of the tubes are bonded , the cheaper ones that is. Reci (recilaser) makes a tube that is better but at a much higher cost. So without experience , I would say that power probably drops over time till at some point the laser just doesnt fire. You cant lay in a stock of tubes as they do have a shelf life. the Reci tubes are warranted for 9 months and the stock ones for 3 months. I have been told my tubes have a 1500-2000hr life, I apply my 1/2x2 rule (1/2 all mnfgr claims and double cost estimates) and I expect an 800hr life (120 working days - 5-6 months)
The one thing that does seem critical for the cheaper glass tubes are the chillers or water cooling , overheating seems to be the problem , hence I have gone for upgraded chillers and will use distilled water with antifungals and change this weekly. The lasers come with flow sensors that wont allow the laser to fire without proper flow.

Martin Boekers
03-16-2011, 2:15 PM
Thanks Rodne, again I was just curious, as many here have Chinese lasers now and I wondered how those gauge engraving paremeters if
in fact after say six months or so it is putting out less power due to gas loss etc. Plus if output varies in raster and vector it really
takes testing and not just to purchase a laser with "similar specifications" expecting similar consistancy

Another thing... since the Chinese models are so much cheaper in cost would maybe an upgrade to the stock lens be a good idea?
Get a higher grade optic and still be quite a bit lower than mainstream lasers?

Once again I see many who decide on purchases mainly on pricing, how do we know the actual performance of a lens?
Is there a way to run a test on the laser like camera shops do on cameras?

Marty

Dan Hintz
03-16-2011, 3:04 PM
since the Chinese models are so much cheaper in cost would maybe an upgrade to the stock lens be a good idea? Get a higher grade optic and still be quite a bit lower than mainstream lasers?

Once again I see many who decide on purchases mainly on pricing, how do we know the actual performance of a lens?
Is there a way to run a test on the laser like camera shops do on cameras?
The lens is not really the limiting factor for the higher wattage systems, it's the beam quality (beam quality refers to the beam coming directly out of the tube, not just what you see at the focal lens). Lenses are relatively inexpensive and easy to manufacture (at least to the tolerances we require), so the ones that come with the Asian systems are quite possibly from the same core manufacturers in domestic systems.

What you really need to test is the beam right at the output coupler of the tube... and they have electronic devices for such tests. A cheap method is to burn directly into a block of acrylic to get a feel for the beam shape. It won't tell you nearly the same info as an electronic meter, but it will tell you if your beam profile is off kilter.

Rodne Gold
03-16-2011, 5:55 PM
Power drops/fluctuations over time and over large tables are common in most lasers - whatever the tube , you need strategies to deal with it , RF tubes with beam expanders suffer less. Im gonna just have to compensate.The lenses these guys offer are real cheap $30, they do offer an upgrade to imported components like lenses and mirrors. Im sure the stock morrors and lense will account for a power drop and possibly a worse beam ,but if it still does an acceptable job , so be it. Raster thruput when you are not using full power will depend on the motion system whatever laser you buy. My Explorers were donkeys compared to my spirits. In essence the type of lasers I have ordered would be like V8 pickups vs a more nimble efficient saloon car - both will get you from a to b. The type you buy is based on intended use and the deal breaker features that are important to you. The economics are what drives this whole purchase , I can get another 25w Spirit 650 x 450 mm , or a 1200 x 800 80w and a 600 x 900 60w , 2 rotaries and a raft of spares for less than the spirit.. It was a no brainer choice for me..
Dan did you read that software manual i sent you? what did you think?

Dan Hintz
03-16-2011, 6:57 PM
Rodney,

The Chinglish is certainly of a higher caliber than most Asian manuals I've seen, but the driver for CorelDRAW is still somewhat in question for me. From what I can gather, it appears they use a standard FTDI USB-to-serial converter chip in the machine, but I'm not sure if it's FTDI's drivers for Windows they're using or their own (I can't remember offhand if FTDI got their drivers certified, but the manual clearly shows an uncertified driver being used). It also looks like they're converting any CorelDRAW output to Adobe Illustrator format (or HPGL) before sending it to the laser... I imagine this is because the AI format has been well documented for years, whereas the CDR format is still shrouded in mystery. This probably won't prove to be an issue for the average file, but heaven help the man who has a CDR file with options that don't convert well to AI. Still, I'm keeping an eye on it for when finances say it is a more likely option (e.g., SWMBO says "okay" to taking up more space ;))

Martin Boekers
03-16-2011, 7:16 PM
Thanks Rodne,

I guess I wanted to show that sometimes it is hard to compare laser just on pricing and statistics.

If you are new to this game is easy to look at 2 sets of stats and say that these 2 have the same output,
speed etc. and make a call, all things equal, I buying the cheaper one, not fully undrestanding that it may
not do the job that you expect it to do.

Once you are a bit more savvy to the machines you get a better understanding of what will work
the best in your situation.

Now one more question, on the motion system, does that have the limitations from the hardware portion
(can one design only go so fast) or can software be bumped abit, such as getting a high performance
chip in you auto?

I know that these aren't available today, but someday the manufactures may add a standard and high
performance mode to their machines. Is it possible?

I know we are getting off track a bit, but I have your attention here and didn't want to start a new thread!:D

Rodne Gold
03-16-2011, 8:00 PM
A motion system is a combination of mechanical and electrical parts , the challenge is to have ultra free motion without backlash or clearance issues , this requires high tolerance bearings and finely ground rails and a very solid substructure to mount it all on. You also have to have drive motors and a drive system (like belts). There are limitations to how fast the motors can drive the flying head back and force while allowing it to fire at the right time. The lighter the head, the faster you can drive it. You can upgrade your motion system speed with faster motors if everything else is right.There is much more to motion systems than i have put here.

Dan Hintz
03-17-2011, 7:12 AM
There is much more to motion systems than i have put here.
Having programmed a few driver systems in my day, I can certainly attest to that :( From a 10,000 foot view, how hard can it be, right? And then physics kicks in, something that doesn't show up in the drawings.

Platform slowly losing its place? Hmmm, is my code right? Is the hardware driver losing steps on the steppers? Is the optical feedback on the servos correct? Is something sticking and needs oil? <sigh> Nope... there's a sympathetic vibration at speed 'X' and the platform is wobbling :( Let's lighten it up, then... bummer, that changes the frequency of the vibration, alright, but now it doesn't have enough mass to stay seated. Let's make it heavier... bummer, now the drives can't give us the top speed we quoted in the spec. A month later you're trying to explain to the customer how close you are to giving them something.

Sometimes it's just easier to copy someone else's design and be done with it ;) Oh wait, that's why you see so many copycat Asian designs... once one of them gets it right, everyone else just buys (or copies) from them and paints it a different color. Same thing with the control software... there are easily 100+ systems manufacturers in China, but only a few software driver choices that everyone uses. The domestic systems would likely do the same if it wasn't for copyright law being so dominant here.



Martin, to be a little more specific... stepper motors (the most common type used in Asian systems) have, like all motors, a finite torque and speed. Try to go to fast, and the "move me another step" pulse comes in too early and the motor fails to move. You think you've moved, but you haven't (physics took control). Once you're out of place from where you think you are, that pretty engraved picture is now an addition to the scrapheap.

How do you make it go faster? Pump more current through the motor windings, making each winding pull harder (more power, higher magnetic field, stronger pull). So now you're pulling harder and yank the carriage to the next position... but it has mass, and mass doesn't stop immediately. So you have to wait until the carriage stops moving before you can fire. You see where this is going...

If you're really smart and want/need to be ultra-accurate, you measure the entire system for vibration frequency at every speed, measure the excursion, etc. and compensate for before firing. For example, when you first start shooting across the substrate, the carriage will be twisted in one direction or another, so you fire early or late depending upon the amount of twist you calculated earlier, the focal distance to the substrate, the current carriage speed, etc. The less twist you have, the less you have to compensate for it. So you make things lighter/smaller so they don't twist as much... and then we jump back up to one of the previous paragraphs and start the whole shebang again.

I actually enjoy doing that kind of design work, eeking out the last ounce of speed/power from a system... but it's not easy, it's not cheap (when you consider the man hours), and not everyone knows what to measure/look out for.

Rodne Gold
03-17-2011, 9:04 AM
I decided to Go with a RECI tube for the 80w machine , was $550 to upgrade the normal 80w to the 10 000 hour 300 day guarantee one
(2 tubes and 2 power supplys) the "inferiro" tube is a 1500hr one and has a 3 month guarantee
Reci has this to say why to buy their tube:

V2-80W highlights:
Output Power: Itsoutput power can reach 85w. The production process of the tube is standardized,so the output power and output model are guaranteed. Its cutting effect and cuttingspeed is the same as 90w laser tube of other brands. (The other laser tubes arehandmade and its quality is different from one tube to another)

Long life span: We have catalyst plating in the innerwall of the laser tube. Designing lifespan is 10,000 hours and the warranty is10 months. (No catalyst technique is used by other laser tubes manufacturers.Their lifespan is 3000 hours and the warranty is only 3 months)

Appearance: The tube is sealed by metal material. It is industrialproduct. (Nometal material is used by other manufacturers. Their tubes are handmade andneed extra water cooling for front and rare mirrors)

Tube frame: Thisis exclusive design for Reci laser tube. You can use it to install our lasertubes into the machine to spare the freight cost. This frame is shockproof andmakes sure the tube will not move during the transport. (No frame is providedby other manufacturers.)

Length: Thelength is only 1.2m. It reduces the volume of the machine and minimizes freightcost.(The length of other 80w tubes is 1.64m. 300mm must be projecting in themachine. That costs more for machine panel, package and transport)

High photoelectric conversion rate: No compression typewater chiller should be equipped. The output power will decrease for less than1w when the cooling water’s temperature is 42℃. Its heat productivity is lower than 60w tubes of other brands. (Otherbrands: The output power decreases rapidly when the cooling water’s temperatureis 42℃)

Very good engraving function: It can compare with 50wlaser tubes of other manufacturer. The tube can engrave with 5mA workingcurrent when there is still no laser beam in the laser tube. (Other brands: Noengraving function)

Warranty: 10months, international warranty service, Reci charges the freight for exchangingthe defect tube. (For others laser tube brands: warranty for3 months, no international warranty service)

High performance cost ratio: When you buy Reci 80w tube,you can spare money for machine sheet metal, transport. Besides, you get 10months warranty and the top level after sale service.


Seems a better deal?
www.recilaser.com (http://www.recilaser.com) has some more info

Dan Hintz
03-17-2011, 10:32 AM
For the small increase in price, it probably can't hurt to try them... though I find it amusing they can "guarantee" a 10k hour lifetime (14 months), but its warranteed for only 10 months.

I really like their adjustable tube mounts... I'm surprised no one else sells such an add-on. It should make initial aiming much easier.

Once the mixture is locked in, output power is solely a function of distance between the mirrors ("active length"), and typical values are in the 50W/meter range. At their listed length, they're at 60W, give or take... make sure you measure the output when you get the tube.

Rodne Gold
03-17-2011, 11:27 AM
Im actually looking at their warrantee - dunno what to make of this:
The warranty period for the first buyer is 300 days.
● If fracture in the glass structure of laser tube occurs within 7 days after the first buyer gets the product, the company is responsible to exchange for free. The company shall not take the responsibility from the 8th day.● Within 180 days of the date after manufactured, if the user follows the instructions and the power output happens to be lower than 85% of the rated output, our company shall exchange or repair the laser tube with a new one for free. The replaced laser tube enjoys the quality guarantee as the new one from the manufacturing date. The user should pay for one way freight for repair. The company is not responsible for any damage and change of laser structures.● From the 180th to the 300th days after manufactured, if the user follows the instructions and the power output happens to be lower than 85% of the rated power output, the company shall provide either repair or replace the laser tube with our special tube (depending on specific case) for free. The user should pay for one way freight for the repair. The company is not responsible for any damage and change of laser structures. The warranty for tubes exchanged during this period is four months.Maybe a spare tube isnt a good idea? The warrantee extends from date of manufacture , albeit If I have a spare there will be no downtime if my primary fails and has to be sent back..

Dan Hintz
03-17-2011, 12:55 PM
How long does it take to ship a tube from them to you? I guess a few weeks after dealing with customs and the like?

mark healy
03-21-2011, 7:23 AM
Hi again all, sorry for being away so long (it was paddy's day & I'm irish, so i'll leave you to fill in the blanks lol)

Rodney, I would be very interested in hearing about your trip to Liaocheng Shenhui Laser Equipment Co. If possible, would you be able to get a pricelist for their machines that you could either post here, or pm to me? I would be vrey grateful for that.

Dan, I would ONLY be engraving, I do not foresee currently any reason I shall have to cut acrylic or other materials, so I should be safe regarding the firehazard...but will keep an eye on things anyway! Would crystal, glass and acrylic be similar textures engraving-wise,or is there some differences I should know about?

Michael, yes thanks, I was in talks with Epilog a few months ago, but at the moment, their prices are out of my league & there are not many small business loans being given here these days, so its strictly a "buy what you can afford" era. I feel more comfortable doing this anyway.

This question is a bit off in the future yet, but once I do decide on a machine, what are the extras I should opt for?

I think a rotary engraver would be a useful addition for the sake of a few hundred euros.
But speaking about the lifespan of tubes, I once read on here, that you should be wary of buying more than one spare tube, as they half limited life-spans & expire while still in the box.

Any other useful or necessary items, I should look into bargaining into the sale price?

Thanks again for all the info.

Mark

paul mott
03-21-2011, 8:02 AM
But speaking about the lifespan of tubes, I once read on here, that you should be wary of buying more than one spare tube, as they half limited life-spans & expire while still in the box.

On other forums some have reported new tubes arriving from China intact but dead whilst others say they are still using tubes that are in their third year of service.

I think it all depends on the quality of the epoxy work, I am assuming it is epoxy because it looks like epoxy, they do when fitting the mirrors and this could just be down to pot luck. Once the internal gas mixture is compromised, that's it.
(All epoxy would be full of microscopic holes and Helium is pretty good at migrating through these holes to combine with the molecules it finds at the surface, even if it does mean travelling from a low pressure area to a slightly higher pressure area).

Paul.