Twin-Screw Face Vise

[Joe O'Leary]

I'm looking at Len Hovarter's vise for my new bench but need some advice. My bench is only 69 inches long. I have not done any dovetailing but plan to learn in the near future. I will use the vise on the face of my Ruobo style bench, which is 3 1/4 in. thick, legs flush with front, no apron.

First question is, given the relatively short length of the bench, how wide should I order the vise? I believe the range, center to center of clamp shafts, is 10 to 25 inches.

Second, I will need to add blocks below the bench to make the rear jaw (bench face) wider. How would you attach these? There need to be two because the bench leg will also be part of the rear jaw.

Thanks and hope this is clear enough.

BH

[Mike Brady]

Your bench sounds quite similar to mine. At a length of just over six feet by two feet deep, my bench is sometimes referred to as a Holtzopffel bench. Mine has a twin screw vise made by Lie-Nielsen that is 18" between the screws and 24" overall. I have found this to be ideal for this length of bench. I did not install a deadman but do have dog holes in the fronts of both legs in case a want extra support for large work pieces. These too have worked very well. I might add that I have QR vise in the end vise position, line up with the dog holes in the top. I use this feature as much as the actual main vise because I can work the faces of boards without anything being in the way of my use of tools.

I have not read any user report about the Hovarter, vise, but would have considered it had it existed a year ago. I'm surprised that one of the magazines has not reviewed it. The Lie-nielsen vise is fantastic, but you must be precise in installing it because it has no real means of adjusting the chop to parallel with the bench front. In other words get it right the first time.

[Joe O'Leary]

Fww did a short blurb on the Hovarter this summer, but nothing since. (http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/30030/quick-acting-vise-reinvented-new-design-by-len-hovarter

I completely read the installation instructions for the LV, L-N and Hovarter before choosing the latter. Installation looks pretty straightforward, hardware is solid and it's the only QR. The L-N is nicely made but is designed primarily for their own bench. And when their instructions started talking about 1/64" I had some uneasiness.[
I plan to install an old (over 100) QR end vise on the end. Mike, did you use a single row of dog holes centered on the end vise or a double row?

BH

[Matt Winterowd]

I have the LV twin screw vise in the front position on a 60" bench. My feelings about the arrangement have definitely changed over time. The big factor for determining how wide you want the cranks to span is really down to the type of work you do. If you plan on dovetailing carcase sides, you're going to want the 24" span. If you do boxes, 12" would be plenty. However, as I recently posted on another thread, my next bench will not have a front twin screw. The downsides are: it takes up a lot of space, it racks top to bottom when holding materials on edge, and it's actually too low for doing dovetails really comfortably anyway. My next bench will have either a leg vise, quick-action front vise, or a true shoulder vise in the front position. I think that the Moxon style twin screw vise fixture (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/workbenches/declaring-victory-with-the-double-screw-vise) or a bench-on-bench (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=240&BG=1) is the way to go for dovetails, and leave the vise with a more versatile design.

This is all just my opinion of course.

[Joe O'Leary]

I forgot about the Moxon option. I'm really not sure how much dovetailing I'll be doing anyway- just want to be prepared. I do need some sort of front vise however.

Matt, I'm a little confused about your comment
too low for doing dovetails really comfortably anyway,
Can't you just raise the board, between the jaws, to a comfortable height?

BH

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Matt, I'm a little confused about your comment,
Can't you just raise the board, between the jaws, to a comfortable height?

Well, no. The further the area you cut from the vise jaws, the more chatter you get as the wood bends more. The closer, the more stable the cuts, and quicker as the saw isn't fighting wood movement.

Pam

[Jim Neeley]

Pam,

I'm new to all this, having just received my Cosman DVDs yesterday, DT saws, etc. on order and plan to start on a benchtop this weekend. I have a Woodcraft Pattern Makers and a TwinScrew reserved for the bench.

Rob's video is the only one I've seen to date but his wooden face vise is flush with the top and the wood sticks up about 3-4" while cutting. It's not a twin screw but still the top of the vise is flush with the benchtop.

In your experience, does that mean that any vise that's flush with the top of the bench is too low for dovetails? That would seen to affect the vast majority of vises.

I'm confused since I've read of people who liked using the twin screw because they could place the wood down between the screws.

What about a PM vise then? It'll rotate up...???

[Pam Niedermayer]

How far the wood can exceed the jaws is totally dependent on the type of wood and its thickness. So if you're talking a typical 1/2-3/4" piece of wood, 3-4" is no problem. But maybe 8-9" would be. That's all. I only mentioned it because it's not always possible to "just raise the wood," and if someone had problems after doing so, here's the reason.

I would expect a woodworker to protect his/her back; so if the wood is too low for comfortable cutting, pull up a stool or add a tiny bench with vise to sit on top of the main bench, or whatever it takes to fix the height relationship. I often cut with the wood horizontal on the bench without any vise at all; but then I use those weird Japanese saws and am generally perverse. :)

Pam

[Matt Winterowd]

+1 to Pam's responses. You really want to clamp the wood as low in the vise as possible for stability.

Obviously many people do cut dovetails at bench height (+3"-6" of protruding wood), and if that works for you, great. However, I find it uncomfortable if I'm doing more than a couple of joints. It was a revelation to me to feel what it was like cutting them in a more upright position. Also, it's a lot easier to see your layout marks.

The conventional wisdom on workbench height is really a compromise between two competing needs. "Wrist height" is actually just a little bit high for a lot of planing work, and quite a bit too low for many sawing and chiseling tasks. Most people only get one bench, so it's a compromise that most people work with. I don't think I would actually build a bench any lower for planing, but it's relatively easy to bring one of the most demanding sawing tasks, dovetailing, up to a more comfortable height.

[Jim Neeley]

With a workbench being a compromise between the ideal planing height and dovetailing height, wouldn't that make a good case for either the www.adjustabench.com (http://www.adjustabench.com) or the www.jack-bench.com (http://www.jack-bench.com)? It would see that this would let you sit or stand (or alternate) when cutting (lots of) dovetails?

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in either of these, beyond being a customer of both sites.

[Jim Neeley]

Mike,

What is your experience having your vise handle on the "center of table" side of the bench? The complaints I've heard from some here would imply they'd want the handle on the outside edge of the vise/bench and leave the inside screw unfettered.

Jim

[Matt Winterowd]

Regarding the Matt's comments on the LV / Veritas vise; those comments are typical from owners of that vise and that is why I waited for the L-N vise to become available. Believe me, it doesn't rack in any dimension. You have to remember that with any twin screw vise, the two screws or rods have to be exactly parallel, or the chop (outer jaw) will bind in its travel. That is the reason for the high tolerance in installation.

Actually, many people are extremely happy with the Veritas vise. And while I'm sure that the LN vise is very solid, to say that it does not wrack in any direction is to defy the laws of physics, my friend. The question here, I believe, is really more one of design vs. workstyle than one set of bench hardware over another.

[Pam Niedermayer]

With a workbench being a compromise between the ideal planing height and dovetailing height, wouldn't that make a good case for either the www.adjustabench.com (http://www.adjustabench.com) or the www.jack-bench.com (http://www.jack-bench.com)? It would see that this would let you sit or stand (or alternate) when cutting (lots of) dovetails?

Sure, and I'm also sure that's why the people who buy them buy them; but it's a good idea to think about your processes and how they unfold. Let's say you need to size your drawer sides (lots of sawing and planing), then cut to length, then dovetail the ends, then plane some more to fit the dovetails, then assemble. It's more than enough interruption for me to use a vise; so adding a height adjustment would be too much. For you? Maybe not.

My solution for me is to have different devices, such as a planing beam, bench, saw bench, and assembly table. YMMV.

Pam

[Matt Winterowd]

Again, +1 to Pam's remarks. If you use your bench a lot, it probably won't be the last one you build (or buy). You'll add, remove, modify, and replace it as your work evolves. But if there are things that you're worried about with your design, or that you think might bother you, it's a good idea to really think them through and weigh out all the alternatives. Annoyances have a way of growing more often than they shrink.

I would really recommend reading the workbench books by Landis, Schleining, and Schwartz if you haven't already. Yes, all three. If you can only pick one, go with Schwartz. I don't totally agree with his unified theory of bench design, but he does go methodically through the pros and cons of each element of the bench in a way that the other guys don't.

Don't forget too, that a twin-screw vise can make an excellent tail vise, then it's there when you really want it, but out of the way when you don't. A cast iron quick-action vise (like a Jorgensen or Record) in front and a twin-screw on the end can be a very effective combination.

[Jim Neeley]

Sure, and I'm also sure that's why the people who buy them buy them; but it's a good idea to think about your processes and how they unfold. Let's say you need to size your drawer sides (lots of sawing and planing), then cut to length, then dovetail the ends, then plane some more to fit the dovetails, then assemble. It's more than enough interruption for me to use a vise; so adding a height adjustment would be too much. For you? Maybe not.

My solution for me is to have different devices, such as a planing beam, bench, saw bench, and assembly table. YMMV.

Pam


That sure as heck sounds viable too.. I was just curious! :)