Another Newbie building & outfitting a shop.

[Mike Holbrook]

Introduction

I am glad to find such a great place to mull over woodwroking ideas. I have been locked in a construction phase for several years now. Constructed a building to do dog training in, finished a basement, finished a play/study/multimedia room for my daughter, storage building, chicken house...Now I think its time to start building shelves, cabinets and furniture.

My shop Plan

My "shop" has been an unfinshed storage bin for construction materials and tools. I am in the process of reworking this 15.5 X 20 room into a real functional work shop. Just off this room I have another smaller room that was serving as a materials storage room. As the construction materials got used up, my wife slyly began to fill the gaps with other junk that I am now trying to relocate. Just off my shop there is a covered patio, with the house on two sides and a concrete wall backed with dirt on a third side.

I am setting up my rough sawing (12" mitre saw & sawing rig, old rough bench, saw horses and a painting/sanding etc table) on the concrete floor of the patio. I hope that moving the dustier work to a semi outdoor area will help me get by a little longer without a true dust collecting system.

Dilemmas

I have a bunch of tools, but most of them are geared for construction not wood working. I bought a double vise workbench and I have some pretty good hand tools which I upgraded over Christmas. I think my greatest weakness is the lack of a table saw capable of handling large wood and panels. My greatest challenge is all those tools, screws, nails etc. without good places to store them. I have a couple over flowing metal shelves and a couple particle board storage cabinets that may not be strong enough to hold the weight of my materials and tools. I am currently covering the stud walls with 3/8 plywood ( I had some of this on hand), two walls are concrete (basement). I want to make wall and base cabinets for this shop ASAP. I am thinking about running 220 to one wall before I finish it.

I have been reading all the posts on table saws with great interest. I was thinking about trying to sneak by with a table mount table saw (building a work station around it) but my reading has about convinced me that I should go ahead and get a contractor or cabinet saw. I was checking out the Powermatic 1791227K Model 64 10" Artisan, left tilt table saws that I see such great internet deals on but The Grizzly 1023SL Cabinet saw sure seems to have a great number of strong followers.

I am wondering if a novice planning to build a bunch of shelves and cabinets in the near future can justify the Grizzly? I am pretty good at cutting plywood with a skill saw. I suspect that building all of the European style cabinet bases I am planning on would be an exercise in futility without a good table saw though.

One other thing, I am on 12 acres covered in timber. I always seem to have a nice hardwood or two or 6 that have to come down. I sure would like to turn some of it into boards. I guess my ancient 12 " Inca band saw is not going to "cut" it.

[Jim O'Dell]

First off, Welcome to the Creek, Mike. Glad you waded on in!

I'm in the middle of a shop rehab myself. I'm having to redo the walls and exterior first before I can even start with the interior and cabinets. (See http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=14427 for what I'm in the middle of if interested)

Yes, definately get a decent table saw. Most will say if you can afford it, get a cabinet saw and you'll never have to upgrade. But I just have a Rigid contractor saw, and it does a decent job. I'm hoping I can upgrade in the next 3 years or so.

Please keep us posted on you're shop, pictures are a must!!!

Oh, and what kind of dog training facility? We raise and show Irish Setters. Just got a new show prospect this past weekend. We've got several pieces of Agility equipment strewn around the back yard, and my wife has done Obedience work in the past, but has put it aside for the Agility ring. Lot's more fun!!!

We'll look forward to your updates. Jim.

[John Bailey]

Mike,

Welcome to the Creek. Like you, I'm a relative newcomer. Also, like you, I'm in the process of building a shop. Unlike you, everything I work on (Mountain Dulcimers, Kayak Paddles and Boats) has curves. I'm going with a bandsaw along with a good circular saw. Keep us up to date on the shop. Mine's put to sleep under tarps for the winter. Didn't get it enclosed in time for the Northern Michigan winter.

John

[Mike Cutler]

Mike welcome to the 'creek. For most people the tablesaw is the "Center of the Shop" so to speak, for myself, I consider the worbench "The Center". Buy the best tablesaw that you can afford, and you will never regret it. Imho look for a 3 HP cabinet saw, with a 50" or larger fence, massive trunnions, 3 pulleys, and a big cast iron table. Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly, Bridgewood, Jet.. just to name a few, all have nice machines. You might even look at the Minimax line also. If you're serious about cutting large panels you may want to consider a slider option along with the saw.

[Jay Albrandt]

Welcome to the Creek Mike. As you already know, this is a wonderful place to learn.

As far as your "dilemmas", there are several ways to go. If you just want to get organized and build some shop cabinets, then purchase a Festool circular saw with a guide rail system. Everyone here that has one really seems to like them and they seem plenty accurate for large sheet handling. By using a sacrificial table to support the plywood, you can make a lot of cuts fairly quickly. When you get the money, go and buy the table saw. The festool will still be there, and I think you will end up using it more than you think...even with the TS.

Rather than try to deal with the dust by moving it outside, consider a dust collector as one of your first purchases. There is no sense in ruining your health to enjoy a hobby! I built a cyclone and it was the best thing I ever did! You could get a bag unit, but get upgraded bags.

For case work...look for the best deal you can find on a Kreg pocket jig, (get the complete set-up). You will be amazed at how fast your cabinets will go together.

Because of your hardwood supply, next, I would save the money for a high quality bandsaw...Minimax comes to mind. Then, consider a planer and jointer. Combo units are a good bet since you have limited space. With a TS, BS, planer and jointer, with the hand tools you already have, you are in business! Then you can add stuff based on what you want to do...like a router table or shaper, maybe a lathe... the possibilities are endless.....OH MY!

I started off with all craftsman stuff (10" table saw, chop saw, routers) and they served me well for many years and I made a lot of good stuff with them. Over the years, I upgraded slowly, but never compromising in quality. Even if I had to wait and save for the right tool (always getting the best I could afford) it was all worth it.

Just my 2 cents.

Have fun.

Jay

[Mike Holbrook]

Wow this page moves right along, three answers already.

Jim, I have read the thread on your shop project, you are moving along fast. I will continue to watch. I will try to get some pictures up sometime soon too.

Dogs, off topic:

It is not hard to get me to go on about dogs *G*. We have German Shepherds Beaucerons and more recently Australian Cattle Dogs. Before someone asks Beaucerons are a French herding dog. People think they are skinny Rotties or fat Dobermans (actually Dobermans probably came from Beaucerons). We have also done some rescue work in the past.

I started doing a dog sport called schutzhund (sort of a dog triathalon: obedience, tracking and protection with temperament testing) 20 or so years ago. I teach obedience, scent work and protection. We have done a large amount of K9 training for police departments. One of my wood projects is construction of a large scale heavy duty obstacle/agility course.

I am working on written and video projects on dog training now. We have some pictures at www.Wolfbrook.com.

Table Saws and sawing stations

I am getting pretty serious about that 3 hp, cabinet saw idea. I plan on having an appropriate home for one soon, although I may need the saw to finish the room. I have always lusted after a big saw.

I have read some about saw attachments for cutting panels. I am thinking about buying a saw that this sort of jig or attachment can be added to later. I am thinking about a large cabinet, out-feed table first. I have read some posts that suggest substantial in-feed and out-feed tables can work even better than specialized feeding fences for cutting large panels. I know I need more storage space fast, so my present thought is to start with the out-feed cabinet and a good wide rail system on a big saw.

I am also thinking about making some base cabinets that can serve as in-feed tables and possibly be rolled against a wall when not needed. I have a book by Danny Proulx on "Building Woodshop Workstations" that has some good ideas and plans.

I am torn between casters and adjustable legs for my cabinets. Mobile tools sound good but the adjustable legs may be crucial to matching cabinet heights to my saw on an uneven concrete basement floor. My current thought is to go with mostly adjustable legs. I hope to solve space issues by moving wood and some other storage materials to my adjoining room and moving some of my messier operations onto my semi enclosed adjoining patio.

I hope I can reclaim some space by mounting my router in an in-feed cabinet and ditching the old rocky table with the hard to use inadequate all wood fence.

Thanks for the warm welcome.

[Paul Franklin]

Mike
Welcome, One other option to consider is the Festool system. I know a cabinet saw is great to have, but you can do 99% of what you need using this great system. Check out www.woodshopdemos.com John has built a complete kitchen using nothing but Festool equipment. Festool is the best quality hand power tools you can get. they are very well made and come with a 3 year warranty. Ask Bob Marino, he is one of the best dealers for these tools, here is his link http://festool.safeshopper.com/
Also www.festool-usa.com, and there is a forum just for Festool - -- Direct link to public forum removed by Moderator - violates SMC TOS check it out.
Good luck.
Paul

[Jim O'Dell]

Mike. I am a little familiar with schutzhund training. Haven't watched it, but know it is the basic training for law enforcement dogs and military dogs. We do rescue as well, covering all of North Texas for Irish Setters and often help with English Setters. I'll look at your site when I go home for lunch.
Lots of ways to go to do the jobs at hand. I've never looked at the Festool products in person, but from posts here it looks like a great system. Do a search and you'll find lots of posts about it. I will also be building a series of wall base cabinets that are the same height as my saw for use in ripping sheet goods, as well as some mobile infeed and outfeed tables that can be used at multiple stationary tools for extra support for big items. I look forward to seeing some pictures of your progress. Jim.

[Mike Holbrook]

Festool System vs Table Saw

I checked out the Festool system, I think my teenager would say "sweeeeet". That WoodShopDemos sight was fantastic. I would love to have one of those systems but it looks like a minimum $700 investment and I am thinking it will grow to well over $1000 with a table and other stuff I would need to do it right. I can get a Grizzly 1023SL for that kind of change.

Although I am not as cramped as some, I do have limited space. I think I would need an area to set up a Festol table and or a place with saw horses and a stout, level 4X8 sheet of plywood covered with a sacrificial surface that I could lay sheets of plywood on to cut them. I am not sure that I have that kind of space indoors. With the table saw I could use combination cabinet / feeding tables to support my work that would serve dual purposes and save considerable space. So I am still leaning toward the TS although the Festool is very attractive.

Pocket Holes

I just bought a Drill Press (to do a specific job) and I am wondering if I can use it to drill pocket holes? I ordered a Drill Press table that has an excellent fence and clamping system on it. I was thinking about putting a pocket hole guide in a plywood jig that could be clamped on the table with the piece that needs the pocket hole(s). Could something like this be an effective way to make pocket holes?

Dust Collection Systems

My wife bought me a Delta Dust collection system recently which I returned and have not replaced to date. I do not have a place to put that monster and I was not impressed with the dust collection bag. I do not think that bag would stop the fine dust particles that I feel need to be removed from the air. I should say that my Shop is mostly underground with no real way to pipe dust out or locate the dust remover in a less offensive outside location. I am hoping you guys know of more compact better systems, someone mentioned a cyclone. A link would be appreciated.

Thanks for all the good ideas.

[Frank Pellow]

First of all, welcome to Saw Mill Creek Mike. A year ago, I had just discovered Saw Mill CReek, but had not yet joined, I had a cramped basement workshop, and most of my tools were quite old and of inferior quality. In the last year (with a lot of advice from the folks at Saw Mill Creek) I have built a stand-alone workshop, I have acquirted a lot of good tools to help with that construction, and I have just finished purchasing 6 larger machines for the shop.

What a difference a year makes!



Festool System vs Table Saw

I checked out the Festool system, I think my teenager would say "sweeeeet". That WoodShopDemos sight was fantastic. I would love to have one of those systems but it looks like a minimum $700 investment and I am thinking it will grow to well over $1000 with a table and other stuff I would need to do it right. I can get a Grizzly 1023SL for that kind of change.

Although I am not as cramped as some, I do have limited space. I think I would need an area to set up a Festol table and or a place with saw horses and a stout, level 4X8 sheet of plywood covered with a sacrificial surface that I could lay sheets of plywood on to cut them. I am not sure that I have that kind of space indoors. With the table saw I could use combination cabinet / feeding tables to support my work that would serve dual purposes and save considerable space. So I am still leaning toward the TS although the Festool is very attractive.

I am getting a cabinet table saw (a General-650), but I never again plan to struggle with trying to cut sheat goods on a stationary saw. It is just so much easier and more accurate to use a Guided Circular Saw System (such as the Festool that you have mentioned or such as the EZ Smart System, or such as a good home made guide). Have you considered the fact that you require twice the space to process sheet goods with a stationary saw as you do with a moving saw?

[Mike Holbrook]

"I am getting a cabinet table saw (a General-650), but I never again plan to struggle with trying to cut sheat goods on a stationary saw. It is just so much easier and more accurate to use a Guided Circular Saw System (such as the Festool that you have mentioned or such as the EZ Smart System, or such as a good home made guide). Have you considered the fact that you require twice the space to process sheet goods with a stationary saw as you do with a moving saw?"


Hi Frank, thanks for the input.

I am not sure I follow your logic "twice the space to process sheet goods with a stationary saw". I need the enclosed storage space in the cabinets, so the way I am figuring it I am not losing any floor space if I use those cabinets as feed tables for my saw. Once the cabinets, shelves, drill press, router table, work bench, band saw get placed, I am hard pressed to find a place to set up saw horses with a reinforced 4'X8' cutting table on it.

Maybe I am missing something here but my experience cutting 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 plywood with a guide has been that the plywood warps out of shape unless it has support under it. The Festool demos I saw seemed to deal with this by placing the plywood on a "sacrificial" table top, covering a rigid table top. The saw was plunged just through the panel barely touching the sacrificial top. For this to work I imagine the cutting surface has to be pretty level or the saw blade want penetrate all the way through the panel in spots.

You mentioned an EZ Smart sawing outfits, a link would be helpful, but I will see what yahoo turns up.[COLOR=Blue]

[Steve Jenkins]

There is an EZSmart system being auctioned off in the Freedom Pens Forum right here on SMC. A better deal can't be had. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=16173
There is a link from there to Eurekazone.
It's simple, accurate, and you don't have to push a sheet of ply around.

[Mike Holbrook]

I just made my bid. Do you know if this is a used system or one donated by the company?

[Mike Holbrook]

After checking out all the shop projects posted here I am embarrassed to post my tiny little project. I am thinking that I need to reclaim the small room adjoining my shop, its only 14 by 11 but it gets me up to around 450. If I enclose my patio area I can get another 200, might have to share that with some dogs though. I am thinking hard on that cabinet saw. I just placed a bid on a Ez Smart at the auction too. The Ez Smart does not appear to be as sophisticated as the Festool but the price is much better and I doubt that its accuracy would suffer much. It can also use the new circular saw I just bought.

Schutzhund, off topic

Actually Schutzhund was created as a temperament and breed test in Germany for German Shepherds, to improve the breed. Other dogs are allowed to compete in schutzhand trials but the German GSD's are bred for it and usually do better.

Schutzhund as a breed test may indicate that a dog has the potential for police work. Unfortunately police departments have often bought Schutzhund titled dogs thinking they were trained for "police work" when in fact the training is at best a foundation for a street K9.

[Mike Cutler]

Mike. An easy and cheap technique for cutting plywood, is to buy 2 or 3 pieces of that 2" hard insualtion board at the local 'Borg. Lay the plywood on top of the insulation board and cut as normal.This way that off piece doesn't start hanging off, and drooping and cause the saw to bind. Just a cheap tip to pass along

[Ken Salisbury]

I just made my bid. Do you know if this is a used system or one donated by the company?


Brand New ! ! !

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Frank, thanks for the input.

I am not sure I follow your logic "twice the space to process sheet goods with a stationary saw". I need the enclosed storage space in the cabinets, so the way I am figuring it I am not losing any floor space if I use those cabinets as feed tables for my saw. Once the cabinets, shelves, drill press, router table, work bench, band saw get placed, I am hard pressed to find a place to set up saw horses with a reinforced 4'X8' cutting table on it.
My logic is quite simple (it takes twice as much space if you are going to move the sheet through the saw), but I guess that that does not matter in the layout that you describe.


Maybe I am missing something here but my experience cutting 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 plywood with a guide has been that the plywood warps out of shape unless it has support under it. The Festool demos I saw seemed to deal with this by placing the plywood on a "sacrificial" table top, covering a rigid table top. The saw was plunged just through the panel barely touching the sacrificial top. For this to work I imagine the cutting surface has to be pretty level or the saw blade want penetrate all the way through the panel in spots.
Yes you need a support under it. I use a collapsable saw horse rig that I described in the thread: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8083. A lot of the time I set these up in my garage or outside, but I do have room to set them up in my shop.

[Steve Jenkins]

Mike if you look at the ezsmart system you bid on it comes with a
foldup table that has moveable slats on it to support fulll size panels. When they get cut up to badly you just replace the wooden parts with 1x3 from home depot. I use one for not only cutting but sanding staining and all sorts of other stuff.

OOPS. not the whole table but just the parts to hold the 1x3's. I have the foldup table and it's really handy.

[Jerry Olexa]

Mike a table saw is the "heart" of the workshop in my opinion. Get the best you can afford, You know the right brands, IMHO, i generally cut 4X8 sheet goods down to manageable pieces w circular saw and staightedgeabout 1/4 inch more than needed. These I then take to the Table saw and using a sled to cut to accurate dims. Struggling with a full 4X8 sheet on a TS even w support tables or extenders is not effective and often dangerous. Just my IMHO

[Frank Pellow]

Mike a table saw is the "heart" of the workshop in my opinion. Get the best you can afford, You know the right brands, IMHO, i generally cut 4X8 sheet goods down to manageable pieces w circular saw and staightedgeabout 1/4 inch more than needed. These I then take to the Table saw and using a sled to cut to accurate dims. Struggling with a full 4X8 sheet on a TS even w support tables or extenders is not effective and often dangerous. Just my IMHO
With a GOOD Guided Circular Saw System, the step that involves the table saw is not needed.

[Roger Fitzsimonds]

Hi Mike,

Welcome to the creek. I am in the Dawsonville area if you want to try a grizzy 1023 out. mine is right tilt but you could get the general idea if you want to. pm me . also there is a wood working show by the airport this weekend.

Roger

[Mike Holbrook]

Hi neighbor,

Woodworking show, I wanna go, I wanna go :) Can you give me some details?
I sent you a PM too. I was thinking about ordering that Grizzly tomorrow. I wonder if Grizzly will be at the show?

[Mike Holbrook]

Hi again Frank,

I have a bid on the Ez Smart here. I also found several options that Rockler offers: a Shop-Built Panel Saw (they supply the hardware and a plan) for around $300, an Al-in-one Clamp Guide (50") that takes a saw or Router plate and a squaring attachment for under $100, and a Precision Circular saw Guide (extends from 50" to 98") for $79.99. A solution in those price ranges should be within my budget. I wonder how accurate they are? They say that the Precision CS Guide will cut a 1/8" slice of wood, that sounds pretty tight.

[Mike Holbrook]

I think I am convinced on the sawing table and CS guide. I am not sure I can spring for the Festool system right now. I just bought a brand new CS that I hate to see waste away. I will see how the Ez Smart bid goes, but I believe it is worth around $400 and I doubt I will go that high. I am also thinking about building the saw horses Frank mentions; they appear to be very versatile. I was thinking about using one of those soft fiberboard sheets on top of it. I guess I could also buy the Ez Table and one of Rocklers CS guides, they say it will rip a 1/8 strip, an outstanding deal at $79.99.

I will use my Table/Saw Horses and saw guide on my covered and enclosed on three sides patio where there is plenty of space to set it up. Sawdust is not an issue there and the floor above is over 9' whereas the shop only has 8 +. This patio is only a few feet from my shop and has double doors. I plan to improve the weather protection on that patio or enclose it soon too.

I am probably going to order a Grizzly G1023... in the next few days. I may check out a local woodworking show first. I plan to build my shop around that saw so I think it is better to just go ahead and do it now. I also have a bunch of cabinets and other projects to build that I am confident will be easier with the saw. I am sweating over whether or not to spring for the G1023SLX with the 7' rails and supported table or just go with the standard G1023SL. It looks like the SLX will fit the place I am planing and I am afraid I will kick my own butt later if I don't but there are so many other things to consider purchasing at the moment.

Anyone have any pointers on making a G1023 a safer saw to use, I am all ears?

Thanks for all the help, it has been very, well helpful :)))))

[Steve Jenkins]

These show making a thin rip using the EZSmart guide and my really old PC circ. saw. The blade is a 10buck home depot.

The first pic shows a rip off 3/4" ply turned on edge and clamped to the guide. The ripped piece is about 3/4 square. It's on the left edge.

The second is setting the cut so I can just rip off the veneer plus a hair. Measured about 3/32 to the iside of the veneer. That will include the saw kerf.

The third is part way through the cut.

It's pretty cool since the clamps act as a support for the piece holding it off the table and giveing a good solid platform.

[Mike Holbrook]

Very nice Steve, that guide system does appear to be excellent.

I think the SGS-1 goes for $189.98. If I do not win that bid maybe I can swing the SGS-1 and build Frank's saw horses. I have an old fart friend that I am looking for a project to coop on and the saw horses he and I built, well a few years ago, are getting pretty ragged. I just bought a Rigid Circular Saw, thinking I would give the Home Depot brand a try. I like the guide base and visual alignment on it, but as the recent wood magazine review confirms, it is bad to throw chips in ones face. I wonder if the Smart Base anti chip inserts will help with that problem?

[Ken Salisbury]

I think I am convinced on the sawing table and CS guide. I am not sure I can spring for the Festool system right now. I just bought a brand new CS that I hate to see waste away. I will see how the Ez Smart bid goes, but I believe it is worth around $400 and I doubt I will go that high. I am also thinking about building the saw horses Frank mentions; they appear to be very versatile. I was thinking about using one of those soft fiberboard sheets on top of it. I guess I could also buy the Ez Table and one of Rocklers CS guides, they say it will rip a 1/8 strip, an outstanding deal at $79.99.

Thanks for all the help, it has been very, well helpful :)))))

Mike -- see this thread on the FPP Forum. A complete EZ Smart System is being auctioned off with the proceeds to the FPP Fund:


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=16173

[Mike Holbrook]

I am all over that auction Ken. I just found out that Ez Smart is at a big woodworking show here in Atlanta. I am going to the show so I may end up with one from there. I will see what the "special show pricing is". If I do I will have to find some other way to support the Pen shipping on the FPP Forum. I am going to the show with a friend who I think is interested, so I will inform him of the auction too. Thanks for keeping me informed though.

[Mike Holbrook]

Well I spent most of Friday at the Atlanta Woodworking show and I think I learned a good deal.

I bought the show deal Ez Smart System. I wanted to make the nock down saw horses that Frank brought up. I think it will be a good project for a buddy and I to work on together. I had set a budget for myself that was hard to stay within. I wanted a good table saw but I also wanted other things to make using the saw safer: Grip-Tite, GRR-Ripper etc.. Since my buddy lost the end of a finger not long ago those considerations were pretty high on my list prior to launching into some fairly major work as a relative newbie.

I ended up buying a General 50-185LM1. I know I chickened out on the cabinet saw. I feel confident that this saw will serve me well for many years to come though. I was very impressed with all the General equipment. I know that my saw is the International brand, but unlike so many other saws in this category some important parts come from Japan, it has an exceptionally smooth, flat table despite its origin and it does come with the Canadian fence. I have a very difficult place to try and get this saw into in terms of access. The lighter saw I believe I can manage myself. I want to get 220 in my shop but the electrician is not being very responsive and I have no idea when I will actually get it in. So logistics of getting a saw in my shop and functional were also factors in my decision.

I took the money I saved on the Table saw and bought the show special Kreg Pocket Hole kit, the Ez Smart system, GRR-Ripper, the larger rails for my TS, a new saw blade, Zero clearance insert for TS, Micro spliter, Grip-Tite etc.. I believe I am ready to build some cabinets now. At least I can finish up a few things I had on hold in my shop and go find some materials now.

Thanks for all the good advice. I will crank up an all new post when I get this gear operational and start construction.