Need some advise on some quality japanese chisels.

[Tony Shea]

I jsut recently posted about which japanese plane is good place to start and got some great advise. But now I need some advise on japanese chisels and how others like them compared to western style chisels such as LN. I have one Ioyori dovetail chisel I picked up from TFWW and absolutely love it's ability to hold an edge, truely impressive. My LN's can't quite get to the level of sharpness and stay there as long as this chisel. Therefore have been contemplating grabbing up a few japanese style chisels to play around with, good quality ones that is. But the choices are endless, very similar to japanese planes. Almost mind boggling.

[David Weaver]

All of the ones in the iyoroi range work well (the iyorois, matsumuras, etc). If you get them in white steel, make sure the place you buy them from takes exchanges since moderately priced white steel chisels can be a bit wonky from time to time. Less to worry about with blue steel - anything can be good.

A step up from there is the koyamaichi chisels (LV has a few - specifically the dovetail chisels, stu can get bunches of them), they cost a bit more.

Ouchi is another name to look for - very plain looking chisels, but everyone I've heard from loves them. They are not cheap, but they aren't nearly as expensive as the blingy chisels - maybe in the range of $100 per?

I think the miyanaga chisels are extremely well done, but they are always a bit small to me, so I only have a couple of their small mortise chisels - extremely tough and well finished little chisels, though.

IIRC joel (TFWW) has a good selection of moderately priced chisels if you don't want plain iyoroi or matsumura chisels, but don't want to spend more than that.

[Stuart Tierney]

Ouchi is another name to look for - very plain looking chisels, but everyone I've heard from loves them. They are not cheap, but they aren't nearly as expensive as the blingy chisels - maybe in the range of $100 per?



Dave, who's selling the Ouchi?


FWIW, I'm looking very hard at Ouchi in the very near future, but they are NOT $100 chisels, unless they're blinged up. Start at $50-60 for regular stuff and you're on the money.

And I'll stay out of this one, as much as it chagrins me. Any recommendation I'd make might be tainted, since I sell Japanese chisels. Pity, since there's video out there of some Koyamaichi being smacked through a chunk of Jatoba, and doing very nicely at it.

Stu.

[Tony Shea]

Don't be worried Stu, I'd highly value your input knowing there might be a slight bias to what your selling. I would imagine there is a reason you sell certain makes over others. Was actually hoping you'd chime in, although I would guess your reccomendation has something to do with Koyamaichi's.

[Pam Niedermayer]

FWIW, I'm looking very hard at Ouchi in the very near future, but they are NOT $100 chisels, unless they're blinged up. Start at $50-60 for regular stuff and you're on the money....

Stuart, if you start selling Ouchi, please let me know. I'm particularly interested in his very thin push chisels.

Tony, I'm a sucker for Tasai chisels (sold by Tomohito Iida and many others), very interested in Yamahiro and Ouchi, have piles of brands I've bought from Mifuqwai/330Mate on the bay, as well as some Takahashi carving chisels and butt chisels that may be Miyanagi (sp?). I like them all, so far not a bad one in the bunch. I recommend finding a good seller, like Stu, and trusting his recommendations to start with. That's what I did with Harrelson at Hiraide. Iida-san is also trustworthy, I go to him with custom orders from Tasai.

I also recommend NOT buying chisels made with a Mokume technique to start because you pay big dollars for this that won't be reflected in the performance. As Stu says, bling. They're real pretty, though.

Pam

[Frank Drew]

I also highly recommend Ouichi chisels (also spelled Ooichi, etc.); I've used them for years and never found anything about them I didn't like. If Pam and David and Stu don't have any ideas, I wouldn't know where to suggest looking for them, but I'm fairly certain they're still in business.

http://kajiya.nobody.jp/

The photo might be of Ouichi-san himself, but if you click on the links below the picture you can see some examples of Ouichi chisels and gouges. Their logo is two crossed leaves.

[David Weaver]

Dave, who's selling the Ouchi?


FWIW, I'm looking very hard at Ouchi in the very near future, but they are NOT $100 chisels, unless they're blinged up. Start at $50-60 for regular stuff and you're on the money.

And I'll stay out of this one, as much as it chagrins me. Any recommendation I'd make might be tainted, since I sell Japanese chisels. Pity, since there's video out there of some Koyamaichi being smacked through a chunk of Jatoba, and doing very nicely at it.

Stu.

Yeah, I guess I americanized the name a little. I saw sets of them on tomohito iida's page, but they came with paulownia box and they may have had blingy handles. I think what I'm recalling was in the $800 range with box for 10 chisels yadda yadda (don't forget to wind the price up a little for the last two wide ones).

[David Weaver]

Just looked them up - shipped here they are $953, white oak handles. The lower width ones are well under $100, the 42mms and such are well over.

[Frank Drew]

Inflation, waddayagonnado? I bought my lightly used set of 10 from a Japanese carpenter for $100 or $120 in 1981, plus another couple of super heavy-duty timber framing chisels for maybe another $20 each.

:D

[Orlando Gonzalez]

I use a variety of brands/makers.

Bench - Fujihiro, Koyama "Tensho", Koyamaichi shinogi style (same ones as at LV)
Parers - Koyama, Koyamaichi
Morticing - Fujihiro, Fujihiro bottom scraper, Koyamaichi
Dovetail - Masashige, Tasai push w/o hoops, Koyamaichi with hoops

All my Koyama and Koyamichi chisels I bought from Stu.

The Fujihiro brand is the trademark of Chutaro Imai and are very good chisels.They are in the mid-range in pricing and you can get them and the Masashige at Hidatools-dot-com.

The Tasai's I got from Tomohito Iida (www-dot-japantools-iida-dot-com). These weren't a "need' but a "want" since they are quite expensive. :o :D

I am waiting for the hooped ones from Koyamaichi that Stu is getting for me. They will be the very thin sided in the same wood (Gumi) as the Tasai's but at a fraction of the cost: 1 Tasai = ~2.5 Koyamaichis

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Tony,

That's about it right now. I've also got Koyama, which are good, but more often than not I'll steer folks to Koyamaichi because I trust them more. Not to say Koyama is bad, not at all, but I've only a passing 'hello' relationship with them, and a "I'm buying >insert meal here< next time" relationship with Koyamaichi. Koyamaichi also got me 'in' with the Miki tool makers, which is practically impossible for a 'retail' seller of tools. Things just happened to be 'right time, right place, right guy' there.

Which is also why I'm a little shy to just start hitting up Ouchi (Oh-oochi) for their stuff (yes Frank, that's him. Young fella, very good at what he does and commands respect that belies his age. I like him a lot. Not sure about his father, who most likely made your chisels.) after a quick shake of hands and a 'hello'. It would quite literally be a phone call, and I'd be in there, but at a great risk of upsetting Koyamaichi, which I really don't want to do. So I need to sort out the particulars before doing anything.

Koyamaichi and Ouchi are the two user choices you'll find in most tool stores of Western Japan. Plenty of makers out there, but folks who buy their own tools to make a living buy one of these two, and more often than not whatever the local store has on the shelf. More commercialised stores often have Koyama, because that's how they're geared up, mass production of a solid, reliable product.

Other than these three, of which I am very familiar, there are a few makers from further north in Sanjo like the Fujihiro that Orlando has that are pretty much the same thing, hammered together by a different person but reputation and price is about the same in the end.

Once you get below the level of these makers (find them, then look at the cheaper stuff in the same store, even mine) and you're starting to make some compromises. There are some gems out there, but generally speaking, you go cheaper you run into corners cut and sub-optimal performance. Most folks will never push their chisels to the limits where the compromises manifest, but it does happen and it makes my life VERY difficult when it happens, because I end up having to justify why xyz chisel costs more, but looks more or less exactly the same.


That's about all I got right now. Too busy with planes at the moment to worry about much else. After them, saws with Mr. Mitsukawa.

Stu.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Yeah, I guess I americanized the name a little. I saw sets of them on tomohito iida's page, but they came with paulownia box and they may have had blingy handles. I think what I'm recalling was in the $800 range with box for 10 chisels yadda yadda (don't forget to wind the price up a little for the last two wide ones).

Tomohito will sell single chisels, so you don't have the expense of the boxes/full set purchases; as will Hida (don't ask me how much fun it is to visit there and paw all over the chisels) and probably Stu.

And I recommend taking it easy on purchases to start with, until you decide which smith makes the best chisels for you, not for me. I bought one set of Japanese bench chisels to start with, and it was a mistake. Once I'd bought all the specialty chisels I needed (paring, mortising, carving, etc.) I found I never needed the bench chisels.

Pam

[Terry Beadle]

I agree with Pam's recommendations above. With one suggestion, ... sword steel. I have a sword steel paring chisel bought from a well known Japanese tool order house before it went out of business. Sorry, I don't remember the maker's name but the point is....put a sword steel paring chisel on your goddahavit list. They are just too cool and keep an edge like nothing else. Ebony handled. It's like art in your hand.

[David Weaver]

What is sword steel? What alloy is it, and what makes it better than the standards?

I've seen that mentioned several times over the years, but always suspect upgrade steels a little from properly done white and blue steels. Is it forged multiple times or something?

[David Weaver]

Tomohito will sell single chisels, so you don't have the expense of the boxes/full set purchases; as will Hida (don't ask me how much fun it is to visit there and paw all over the chisels) and probably Stu.

And I recommend taking it easy on purchases to start with, until you decide which smith makes the best chisels for you, not for me. I bought one set of Japanese bench chisels to start with, and it was a mistake. Once I'd bought all the specialty chisels I needed (paring, mortising, carving, etc.) I found I never needed the bench chisels.

Pam

I would do the same thing if money matters. I don't use my bench chisels much, either. The dovetail chisels and paring chisels get used a lot more often. But, I like the bench chisels I have a lot. They are not up to par with the super edge holding chisels that are out there in an edge holding test, but they sharpen so easy it's evil. I would still buy them again as long as money wasn't a matter.

[David Weaver]

I would agree with stu about the koyamaichi vs. the koyama, at least in the plainer chisels (I didn't get any of the boxed tenshos, etc). The level of finish on the koyamaichi is better, they are more how you would make the chisels if you had the ability to do it yourself and well worth an extra few bucks per. It is sort of like the difference between the finish on a decent set of O1 wester chisels and lie-nielsen's O1 chisels.

All of them work fine, but it's probably a purchase you'll only make one time, so make it what you want.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I agree with Pam's recommendations above. With one suggestion, ... sword steel. I have a sword steel paring chisel bought from a well known Japanese tool order house before it went out of business. Sorry, I don't remember the maker's name but the point is....put a sword steel paring chisel on your goddahavit list. They are just too cool and keep an edge like nothing else. Ebony handled. It's like art in your hand.

Kayoko at Misugi sold Imai's top product, the sword steel chisels. I've never used one, but they're always lauded by people who have.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

I would do the same thing if money matters. I don't use my bench chisels much, either. The dovetail chisels and paring chisels get used a lot more often. But, I like the bench chisels I have a lot. They are not up to par with the super edge holding chisels that are out there in an edge holding test, but they sharpen so easy it's evil. I would still buy them again as long as money wasn't a matter.

Yeah, I suppose it's partly a money matter; but mostly it's a storage space issue as well as a conpicuous consumption issue. It's kind of not zen. :)

Pam

[David Weaver]

i'm not zen. Not "kind of not zen", not zen at all. I don't know if I'm so much a conpicuous consumer as much as a partial hoarder.

There are things I will refuse to buy in large amounts due to space, but chisels are not one of them.

[Dale Osowski]

I miss Kayoko's shop. I still talk to her a few times a month, she is in Japan now. She goes there often to take care of her mother and saw maker Yataki-san. There was a nice feature on her and Misugi Designs back in Woodwork's Dec 97 issue:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Timberwerks/IMG_5255.jpg

[Tony Shea]

Not to throw another name out there but what about the dovetail chisels by Nishiki over at TFWW? I'm really contemplating these as they have the hooped handles opposed to Stu's offering of the Koymaichi's that seem to just have a long paring unhooped handle. I'd rather have the hooped handle as the chisel will be used for more than just paring. I also would like to have the edges of the chisels go down to almost nothing similar to that of the LN's. My Ioyori dovetail chisel still has a bit too big of an edge for my taste in detail work. I'm worried that either of the Nishiki's or Koymaichi's will have a similar large side. I'm not about to grind this off myself either. Thanks for all the great feedback. Something of late has gotten into me and I've been really admiring the amazing quality of toolworks the japanese are capable off especially with respects to their ability at blacksmithing. Truely talented.

Oh, and for now I'm just looking at getting a 12mm version as this will give me an opportunity to see how well I like them.

[David Weaver]

The koyamai-ichi dovetail chisels that LV sells have a tiny side. It is as delicate as you will find, and if you work for a while with them cleaning up between tails, the delicate sides will make your hands blood (some tape over the inside of the finger solves that). I'm sure stu can also get them.

They are excellent chisels.

I don't think Joel sells any junk, and if the nishiki chisels have sides you like, i'm sure they would also be good.

[Stuart Tierney]

Part of the agreement I have with Koyamaichi is that I do not openly advertise the hooped, shinogi (dovetail) chisels in direct competition with LV.

(That part of the agreement is under scrutiny. In short, it won't be an issue soon.)

I can sell as many of them as I can shuffle through, but you have to ask.

So, in the Oire-nomi ordering areas, there's a 'special blade treatment' box, and to ask for details. Whaddya reckon that's there for? ;)



(And the standing order is for any of the Shinogi nomi I order to be thin, thin, thin. Besides, you can choose what handles and hoops you have, blue steel if you want it, multi-hollows on the back over 15mm. Can you tell the inability to just stick them out there is annoying me?)


Stu.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Part of the agreement I have with Koyamaichi is that I do not openly advertise the hooped, shinogi (dovetail) chisels in direct competition with LV. :(

(That part of the agreement is under scrutiny. In short, it won't be an issue soon.) :D

I can sell as many of them as I can shuffle through, but you have to ask.
I did with faceted hooped witch hazel handles. ;) :D

So, in the Oire-nomi ordering areas, there's a 'special blade treatment' box, and to ask for details. Whaddya reckon that's there for? ;)

(And the standing order is for any of the Shinogi nomi I order to be thin, thin, thin. Besides, you can choose what handles and hoops you have, blue steel if you want it, multi-hollows on the back over 15mm.) :D

Can you tell the inability to just stick them out there is annoying me?) Yup ;)

Stu.

See above responses

[David Weaver]

Can you tell the inability to just stick them out there is annoying me?)


Stu.

A little...but I think you just stuck something somewhere!

[Terry Beadle]

In reply to the question about sword steel, the paring chisel I have was from Kayoko at Misugi ( now out of business ). The steel has folded steel for the body of the blade instead of un-folded soft steel. This gives the body ( as opposed to the hard edge steel ) a firmer strengh and ( my guess ) has a better bond to the hard steel lamination. You can see the folds of the steel just as you can in a traditionally made samurai sword.

From a user's stand point, the darn thing gets a really sharp edge and keeps it. In the paring chisel configuration, since it's not being beaten on by a hammer, this is an ideal engineered chisel for paring. Being that the maker, Imai, has this chisel as his top product, all the skill of making a great tool comes to bear. It's just a great chisel and a pleasure to rely on and use.

[David Weaver]

For the backer, that's fine. Is it folded steel or is it folded wrought iron? Wrought iron is a an extremely good forge welding material if the edge is as agreeable. Maybe Jr. could tell us if this isn't the case, but I don't know if anything forge welds better than wrought.

The latter (wrought vs. folded steel) is especially useful because the really soft stuff makes a really hard edge chisel easy to sharpen.

I guess i'm a little suspect of things where someone doesn't tell you what the alloy is in the cutting edge - whether the difference is really in the alloy (which when it is called something instead of what it technically is, is often a marketing thing) or if it's in the care taken in making the chisel itself (fit and finish, quality control, etc).

Not doubting they are good chisels, just wondering what's in the edge. Maybe I'll do some googling.

[David Weaver]

Ok, i just looked them up. They do appear to be layered steel and not wrought. Damascened steel, I guess, would be the right word.

Here's what i recall reading about folding modern steel - the result is actually less strong than the base unfolded steel would've been. I don't remember if it was So who said that, but I saw it somewhere when I was reading about dressy chisels - a japanese tool related board. It doesn't really matter, though, any mild steel or wrought is plenty strong for the back of a chisels, so even if folding it does make it a little less strong, it doesn't matter too much.

So that leaves the edge on the sword steel chisels, which I couldn't find anything about. Maybe it's a boutique white or blue steel (someone said on one forum it's super blue).

I just wish the makers would specify exactly what's in their tools.

Does anyone other than the now defunct misugi designs sell imai chisels? I think i remember seeing that the same maker is now called fujihiro at hida?

EDIT: finally found something. Wiley speculated several years ago that they are a high carbon white steel with a lot of hand forging work. I'd suspect the performance of the chisel is pretty much attributable to the forging work. It'd be nice if they were advertised as such, I had always passed on looking for them because I couldn't tell what they were. I think a good maker's chisels in white #1 would provide similar performance. (Good as in not iyoroi or some other $40-50 brand, but one of the K-ichi or ouchi types).

Sorry for being a crab. It must be in my blood. I always just want the stuff to be communicated in the simplest most standard terms so I don't have to work to figure out what it actually is before I open my wallet.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Ok, Does anyone other than the now defunct misugi designs sell imai chisels? I think i remember seeing that the same maker is now called fujihiro at hida?


Dave, I recall reading somewhere that you have to ask the folk at Hida to special order the sword steel from Imai. I don't know if they still do.

[Tony Shea]

Another quick question, what is the advantage of white steel vs. blue steel? I heard David say to be careful with some of the white steels not being as consistant as the blue's. I think in terms of receiving the chisel with a flat back. Seems as though the few chisels in the $80-$90 range that I'm looking at all have white steel and to get them blue would cost another $20. But my Ioyori $40 chisel is blue steel and holds an incredible edge. There just seems to be a never ending variance in the japanese style of tools.

[Sam Takeuchi]

White steel = nearly pure high carbon steel with no additives in it. I hear working temperature range is narrower and bit more difficult to work it properly.
Blue steel = Same as white steel, but with added ingredients to make it more wear resistant.

To make it more complicated, there are wider choice of steels available in Japanese tools. Normally there are White #1 & #2, Blue #1 & #2, Blue Super, and there is something called forged Blue #1 steel (I think that's only available from Tsunesaburo). Also I'm not including more exotic steels here like Tamahagane (now that's a sword steel), Swedish steel, Togo series, HSS or powdered HSS even though they are commonly available in Japanese tools. Each type of steels has varying degree of of additives or lack of and have different edge quality (not for better or worse, but different behaviors for different types of woods), and are designed and/or used for different types of wood's qualities (hardness and abrasiveness).

I think Blue #1 is the most robust edge steel if you are looking for all around chisel or plane blade. Probably the safest bet to go with if you aren't certain of different steel types and what they are good for. There isn't a lot of point getting White steel (or suckered into getting white #2) chisels if you plan to bang away or make heavy duty use on hard or abrasive woods.

[Stuart Tierney]

White steel is plain high carbon steel, but is very clean and largely free of impurities that cause undesirable brittleness and spotty hardness. Worked and heat treated properly, it's tough, VERY hard and yet because there's nothing but carbon and iron, VERY easy to sharpen. Worked and heat treated poorly, and it's brittle and won't hold an edge as well as it should. It's difficult to explain to some people why spending a little extra (Koyamaichi, Ouchi, Fujihiro, etc.) makes such an important difference. If you've ever seen/read/heard about brittle Japanese chisels, it's because whoever made them screwed up the forging and/or heat treat. But you can't see the difference in the chisel, it needs to be used. Having said that, it is possible to have a cheaper chisel with good heat treating, but you have to be very selective in where it comes from. I'm not 100% confident in some of the chisels I list at the lower end of the scale, but they're there because no matter how often you say it, some people just can't see where the extra $10-20 goes for a better tool, and I'd like to make sure they get as good for the money as is possible, even if I'm not entirely happy about it.

(If I could, I'd only have known makers who make chisels all day, every day and that's it. It's never going to happen, so I have to compromise. Oh well...)

Blue steel is essentially white steel with chromium and tungsten added to increase toughness and abrasion resistance, at the same time it also makes the steel a little more difficult to sharpen, but with modern synthetic stones it's still a doddle compared to even O1. The chromium adds some brittleness, but increases the abrasion resistance. Tungsten adds hardness and wear resistance. It also makes the steel a little more difficult to forge, weld and heat treat but any decent chisel maker has NO trouble with it. The extra price in the chisel is because defects are a little more prevalent with blue steel when making the chisel (de-lamination) and the defects still need to be covered material and time wise. The raw material is only slightly more expensive, and the extra cost is because in the end, blue steel costs more to work with. The way my pricelist from Koyamaichi reads, it's a universal price increase, regardless of the size so it's a big hit on a small chisel, a hiccup on a larger one.

Generally speaking, I very much prefer white steel for chisels. It's tough enough, holds a good enough edge and super easy to get sharp again. For a plane, the added edge holding of blue steel is desirable. Either steel works for both planes and chisels very nicely though, so long as it's done right.


FWIW, I'll not be listing Iyoroi any time soon, if ever. Something there just rubs me the wrong way.

[Leigh Betsch]

The thing I have never understood about Japanese chisels is why is having a hand forged tool steel laminated to a softer steel better that having a western chisel with A2 or O1 all the way thru. Seems like the western chisels are 100% good stuff with none of the cheap stuff in the middle. Sorry to be blunt and I don't intend to be controversial, but I just don't understand. I do have both Japanese blue steel chisels and western A2 chisels but I haven't tested them to the extreme to know the difference.

[Glenn Kiso]

Kayoko at Misugi sold Imai's top product, the sword steel chisels. I've never used one, but they're always lauded by people who have.

Pam

The sword steel was Chuttaro Imai's chisels. Although she no longer has her business/website, however I did email her about couple of years ago and bought a set of sword steel paring push chisels from her. She still has her contacts and was able to order them for me. They are excellent chisels, right up there with Tasai's chisels.

[David Weaver]

FWIW, I'll not be listing Iyoroi any time soon, if ever. Something there just rubs me the wrong way.

No need to, anyway. They're *everywhere* over here already.

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Leigh,

Try this for me, if you're game.

Take a #1000 grit stone or diamond plate, and drag the tip of a similar sized A2 chisel and one of your blue steel chisels across the surface. Heck, only go half way with the A2, but do put a dubbing on the edge.

Now, go sharpen them.


If you still can't tell the difference, and not forgetting that they'll both last about as long as each other when working, as well as the blue steel being able to be made sharper than the A2 chisel, well, you'll be able to tell the difference. ;)

You get no advantage when you cut wood with the tool, but you get rewarded every single time you go to sharpen it. The better the chisel, the bigger the reward.


Oddly enough, The folks at Tsunesaburo said, straight up, that they could very easily make a blade with hard steel all the way through, and it would be significantly cheaper. But the idea that they'd subject their valued customers to the torment of sharpening a solid tool steel blade, even if they'd only use microbevels all the time, was something they would never stoop to doing, just to save themselves some trouble and their customers some money. They'd rather take a hit in the wallet than make life more difficult for the folks using their tools.

They even go to the trouble of bonding their HSS blades to a softer steel backing, even though you can just throw them at a power grinder with impunity. Again, it's to make absolutely sure that you're spending most of your effort getting a good edge on that blade rather than fighting a lot of hard steel that doesn't need to be there.

So, run off and blunt your chisel and find out for yourself...

Or, you can just take a look here; http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=672

The most direct comparison would be between the Blue Chip (top graph, in green. A very small blunting worked out with a full bevel grind) and the Tensho chisel, white steel, green in the bottom graph (very heavy blunting, full bevel grind).

Doing the same level of blunting to the white steel chisel meant the chisel's edge was restored so quickly, there was no point testing it. A half dozen strokes and the burr was back. Contrast the dozens of strokes required for the smaller sectional area Blue Chip (not even A2), and it's a shocking example of how easy good Japanese tools are to sharpen.

Yes, you can use microbevels which effectively does the same thing as only using a thin layer of hard steel, but unless you make sure that your microbevel is the same, every time, you're going to need to work that bevel right again fairly often, which negates the 'speedy sharpening' that microbevels offer, and is 'built in' to Japanese tools. A lot of folks swear by microbevels on their tools, and that's quite alright. Myself, I'll do them on plane blades, but to do that to a chisel is akin to making a 'back bevel' on a chisels back. Not going to happen, at least not in my workshop. I like to be able to use that bevel face to reference against, just like I was taught to use it as. A flat back is less important to me than a flat bevel face.

I hope that helps, and isn't too wordy or difficult to follow.

Stu.

[Sam Takeuchi]

The thing I have never understood about Japanese chisels is why is having a hand forged tool steel laminated to a softer steel better that having a western chisel with A2 or O1 all the way thru. Seems like the western chisels are 100% good stuff with none of the cheap stuff in the middle. Sorry to be blunt and I don't intend to be controversial, but I just don't understand. I do have both Japanese blue steel chisels and western A2 chisels but I haven't tested them to the extreme to know the difference.

Since Stu answered it, I don't need to add much more. I just want to say that laminated construction isn't for the sake of skimping on steel or cost. In fact, getting quality wrought iron that are suitable for backing iron is quite time consuming as they are not manufactured anymore. No one is saving any money making a blade from laminated construction, because it's not done for the cost saving factor.

100% good stuff isn't 100% good when it doesn't let you sharpen with reasonable effort and time. Seriously, good quality Japanese plane blades and chisels are laughably easy and pleasant to sharpen even when they are significantly harder and thicker than any Western chisels. Hollow in the back is there for the same reason, to assist flattening the critical area of the back.

[Pam Niedermayer]

The sword steel was Chuttaro Imai's chisels. Although she no longer has her business/website, however I did email her about couple of years ago and bought a set of sword steel paring push chisels from her. She still has her contacts and was able to order them for me. They are excellent chisels, right up there with Tasai's chisels.

Thanks, Glenn.

Pam

[Leigh Betsch]

Thanks Stu and Sam. Like I said I wasn't trying to be confrontational I just never understood. Now at least I understand what the benefit is to having a softer center is. Looks like I should put my LN and Blue Spruces aside for a while I give my Japanese chisels a serious try.

[Stuart Tierney]

Leigh, by all means give them a try and see or yourself.

They may not be all you hope them to be, since Japanese chisels are not for everyone, but you shouldn't be in any doubt why they're made like they are after sharpening them a few times. Even the 'not so hot' chisels are easy to sharpen, so it matters less as to which ones you have, the effect will be there.

Good luck.

Stu.

[Kees Heiden]

Stu mentioned my short video of a Koyamaichi 18mm white steel choping out a dovetail socket in jatoba. I do 3 or 4 of these sockets and then do some edge maintenance, just a quick hone on the polishing stone. The first time I went all the way to faillure and after 16 sockets (one ful drawer) I chipped the edge, meaning a loger session on the coarse stones.

It's the third video. http://seekelot.blogspot.com/2011/03/videos.html

[Larry Edgerton]

I have been into Japanese chisels for 25 years or so, and somewhere in the distant past I remember reading a Japanese translation that another benifit of the softer iron backs is that the cutting edge is less prone to damage as far as chipping because the softer iron will absorb shocks that would otherwise be 100% transmitted to the cutting edge with all hard steel.

I do know that they are not all equal. I have one of the first ones I bought that is the best, but I have long since forgotten the maker. He was old at the time so I'm sure he is retired by now.

Leigh, They take a small bit of time to get used to, but I now feel clumsy when I pick up one of my western chisels.

[David Weaver]

I should hope that nearly everyone who is sharpening western chisels is doing so by power grinding most of the metal away (and hopefully using a hollow grind).

It definitely takes me less time to keep my western chisels maintained, but the process of sharpening a japanese tool is a very enjoyable one unless you have one of the boutique steels and a stone that doesn't cut it very well. Then the laminated edge seems awfully hard and buggery.

I would imagine the makers also know if they make an iron out of a solid tapered steel blank, one that is tolerant of a power grinder, that they could see their business disappear very quickly when everybody and their brother with precision milling and grinding ability and access to a professional heat treating service started undercutting their prices.

If such a thing existed (say something tolerant of temperatures up to 400 degrees, but that could stay 65 hardness and take a good edge as good as blue steel or so), I could maintain it with a hollow grind and a 2 degree back bevel faster than any traditional japanese iron, and just as sharp and durable in use. Of course, it could also be ground with the new style ura like the HAP 40 planes and there wouldn't even be need for a back bevel.

I wonder what it would do to feel, though, and I would still keep laminated irons, because there is little in the world of sharpening as pleasing as running white steel and very soft kamaji over a natural stone. Well, not little...nothing.

If someone had to hand sharpen a 66 hardness super blue chisel (unlaminated - full thickness hard stuff) on stones, they would probably find another hobby. Especially if you turn back the clock to when the japanese chisels originated, and looked at the stones that most carpenters supposedly were able to get. It's already slower sharpening with natural stones than new abrasives, even with the faster cutting and finer stones we're able to get now (if you're willing to pay for them) that would've been off limits for rank and file folks 100 years ago.

I don't know if you could have a chisel that hard without lamination and have it not be brittle, though. Not a big deal in a plane iron since it isn't subject to levering, but for chisels, it would probably prove problematic.

[Tony Shea]

Just an incredible wealth of knowledge on this thread and very happy I posted the question. Not to say that it has made my decision for me but certainly has given me a huge wealth of knowledge to base my decision on. Thanks all for the input and have found a new favorite site through this, Tools From Japan.... thanks Stu. Your doing us out west a huge service in offering what seems to be so hard to get over here. And the blog is great.

[Leigh Betsch]

OK I gave it a try tonight. I didn't intensionally dull the chisels (something just not right about doing that) but I did sharpen a 3/4" Matsumura blue steel chisel along side a 3/4 Blue Sprue dovetail chisel. The corner of the Matsumura was dubbed so it actually took me longer, the Blue spruce already had the back flat but needed polishing. I used a DMT green diamond plate, Spirco brown ceramic, Spirco extra fine ceramic, then a 12000 grit Naniwa stone (thanks David) on the Matsuruma, and just the Spirco extra fine and 12,000 grit Naniwa stone on the Blue Spruce. In the end the Matsuruma was easier to get a good polish because there is just less area to polish. I then put a Tormek hollow grind, Spirco extra fine, then the Naniwa polish on the 30 degree bevels. Both seemed to be equally sharp (as tested on my arm hair). As luck would have it I just had the toe crack on a coffin smoother so I epoxied in a piece of lignum end grain into it. I used both chisels to shape it. Neither one of them was very successfully (lignum end grain is some hard stuff!)
In the end, I do agree that the Matsumura was easy to flatten the back on and easier to get the back polished. Neither one presented much problem getting the bevel sharp (starting with a Tormek hollow grind), both sharpened up equally well, neither one worked worth a damn on the lignum.
So what do I know, not much. I do kinda like the Japanese chisels but they ain't much to look at compared to the Blue Spruce! I'm thinking I should get a Japanese paring chisel that can handle lignum just for fun. Something that with hold a very sharp edge. I've got the diamond and ceramic stones to handle some fairly hard steel. Any suggestions?

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I do kinda like the Japanese chisels but they ain't much to look at compared to the Blue Spruce!....

Just to note that you're comparing Matsumura to Blue Spruce, middle end (ha!) eastern to high end western. That said, I almost always prefer the looks of the Japanese chisels, even though the BS are quite attractive, something about how the metal looks. But then I prefer seeing the frame structure of a motorcycle better than the plastic body.

Pam

[Kees Heiden]

Hi Leigh,

I have the same experience with lignum vitae. I also have a worn out wooden smoother that I spended a lignum vitae sole. Then I tried to chop out the new mouth with my Koyamachis. It did cut ok for a while but then the edge chipped majorly. I have put that project aside for a while...

[Stuart Tierney]

Just to note that you're comparing Matsumura to Blue Spruce, middle end (ha!) eastern to high end western. That said, I almost always prefer the looks of the Japanese chisels, even though the BS are quite attractive, something about how the metal looks. But then I prefer seeing the frame structure of a motorcycle better than the plastic body.

Pam


What she said. With interest.


(Ever wonder why Matsumura only got a drive by in this thread while we've been busy extolling the virtues and follies of everything else?)


Stu, with a 24mm paring chisel sitting here right now. Just ignore the fact it's 2 feet long...

[David Weaver]

Matsumuras are sort of like a nicer finished and better QC iyoroi chisels. But if you figure what the retailers mark up over here and look at the price of them, you pretty much get what you pay for.

This from someone who got koyama and koyamaichi confused, to my detriment (wish I would've waited for the koyamaichis!!). I do prefer the matsus to the koyamas because they are better finished - the koyama chisels are chunky and kind of coarse - especially in the parers (edge holding is not a lot different in the white steels, though I do have one matsu parer that is a bit disappointing). But from the samples of chisels that I have, I like koyamaichi better than the matsus - when the rubber hits the road, the koyamaichi are finished just a little more delicate than the matsus and they are harder and more true to what the chisel is supposed to be.

So for whoever got all bent out of shape on WN about stu's comment that matsus "won FWW" (whoop dee ding) and challenged that teh koyamaichis are better than the matsumuras, if you need to hear it from someone who has both...(and comparing delicate white steel to white steel chisels), koyamaichi chisels are better.

I see that there are matsumura chisels that are a bit more bling now, but they charge for them like they're mid-top end chisels. As a user of the mediocre WS #2 mokume iyorois (but who paid less than matsumuras cost), before I started spending $100-$125 a chisel, I would want to see some folks talking about what an excellent job the blacksmith did with the steel, how they take a finer edge and hold it as long as anything they've ever seen, and not just how they look. (the iyorois of mine, btw, are excusable to me purely because they totally lay down for any stone and become very sharp very easily- they are not standard iyoroi chisels like you would find at woodcraft, but I got them for only a tiny bit more - i would not buy premium chisels from iyoroi at a premium price).

[Tony Shea]

I agree that Iyoroi's are not a great example of what's out there for japanese chisels. But I must say that my Iyoroi dovetail blue steel chisel is what has stemmed my intrest in quality japanese chisels to begin with. Once I got past the flattening stage and bevel ground to where I liked it on the Iyoroi I have just been very pleased with it's performance. I've beat the heck out of that chisel, even though it's a dovetail chisel I use it as a typical bench chisel without concern. It just never dull, and when it does it takes very little time on the stones. But the fit and finish of this chisel is another story, nothing great at all. It feels nice in the hand but certainly is not a beauty. I'm hoping that is where my jump to the quality eastern chisels will improve. For someone just starting out I would not hesitate reccomend them some Iyoroi chisels, but this is just based upon my experience with mine and nothing else.

I did end up trying out a couple Nishiki's from TFWW as I had other items that I needed to grab from them. Otherwise I would have def gone through Stu. Hopefully they end up comparable to the koyamaichi's you have raved about. I'm def going to be looking for a nice paring chisel right off and some stones and think Stu is going to get my order. Thanks a ton for all the help.

[David Weaver]

I agree that Iyoroi's are not a great example of what's out there for japanese chisels. But I must say that my Iyoroi dovetail blue steel chisel is what has stemmed my intrest in quality japanese chisels to begin with. Once I got past the flattening stage and bevel ground to where I liked it on the Iyoroi I have just been very pleased with it's performance. I've beat the heck out of that chisel, even though it's a dovetail chisel I use it as a typical bench chisel without concern. It just never dull, and when it does it takes very little time on the stones. But the fit and finish of this chisel is another story, nothing great at all. It feels nice in the hand but certainly is not a beauty. I'm hoping that is where my jump to the quality eastern chisels will improve. For someone just starting out I would not hesitate reccomend them some Iyoroi chisels, but this is just based upon my experience with mine and nothing else.

I did end up trying out a couple Nishiki's from TFWW as I had other items that I needed to grab from them. Otherwise I would have def gone through Stu. Hopefully they end up comparable to the koyamaichi's you have raved about. I'm def going to be looking for a nice paring chisel right off and some stones and think Stu is going to get my order. Thanks a ton for all the help.

Well, there may not be a huge difference between the KIs and the iyoroi chisels that are blue steel. The Iyorois that I'm talking about being marginal are the ones that used to be about $25-$30 each, and they're white steel.

The ones that you have are likely very good chisels, if the lamination is good, blue steel should end up in a narrower range quality-wise than white steel.

It's cheap white steel chisels that will can really have you guessing.

The reason I like the KI dovetail chisels so much is that they are white steel, but they are all properly hardened and they are the durability that well done white steel should have. The cheaper white steel chisels don't have that durability. Sometimes they're not as hard as they say they are (I had a white steel mortise chisel that returned results between 60 and 62 - averaging 61 - on a hardness tester - no different than a hard western chisel), and sometimes they're brittle. When they are very hard, but durable (the edge wears slowly for a plain steel) and still not brittle, that's really nice. You get the best of all worlds - a very sharp edge, predictable in use, and either long wearing or only needing quick trips to the polishing stone to keep it very sharp in the middle of a project - depending on how you like to work.

I wouldn't cast off those iyorois in blue steel, especially if they have multiple hollows - they are likely well done chisels, as are a lot of the iyoroi specialty chisels. The difference between iyoroi and some of the more "always premium" makers is that iyoroi pretty much makes chisels across the entire spectrum.

That's just my experience with them, all of them.

And if you order other speciality chisels, spend the $15 for the -ichi, or you'll be sitting in the same situation as I'm in, wishing I hadn't guessed that koyama and koyamaichi were probably the same thing.

I haven't heard anything but good stuff about the nishiki chisels. Until you observe something bad, I wouldn't trade those off for new chisels yet, either. It's likely anything new won't be any better unless it's had some serious individual attention from a high end blacksmith, and that comes with a serious price.

[Leigh Betsch]

Anyone hear anything from Stu? I sent him a pm about a paring chisel, haven't heard anything back. I hope he's ok over there, after the quake and tsunami.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

I spoke to him today, he's fine. He lives south of Tokyo and was fortunate to miss the effects of the quake and tsunamis. It's was tough seeing the devestation that occured. My thoughts and prayers are with those who have been affected.