A Very Important Turning Tool...

[Wally Dickerman]

HAND SANDING. There are frequent discussions here on SMC on tools and how to use them. Sandpaper is a tool, and it's use, especially hand sanding, is seldom discussed. While power sanding is used by many turners, I feel that every turner, beginners and experienced alike should know how to hand sand. Many don't.

In my turning classes I have several handouts. Sanding, Sharpening, Tools for beginners, Turning tips, Beginning hollowforms and Form and design.

This is my handout on hand sanding. Some of it you probably know, some you may not. In my beginning and intermediate classes we don't do power sanding. I think that it's important that the students learn hand sanding.......

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Don't use cheap sandpaper. Premium sandpaper will cost less in the long run because you'll use less of it and you'll get better results.

Oil sanding, when sanding with the first and coarsest grit used, can work wonders with a difficult piece of wood. Mineral oil can be used but I prefer a regular finishing oil. I really do urge you to try oil sanding. You'll be surprised at how effective it can be to quickly clear up a poor wood surface.

Heat is your enemy in sanding. Slow the lathe down a bit so you aren't generating too much heat. Excess heat can cause surface checking. Use firm but not heavy pressure, and keep the paper moving on the wood.

Don't skip the grits...(not breakfast in Georgie). Usual progression is 80 120 150 180 220 320 400 600 and more. If you skip from a coarse grit to a fine grit you'll have a very difficult time removing the heavy scratches. You can't remove 80 grit scratches with 220. Once the coarsest grit is used, all subsequent grits are only to remove the scratches from the previous grit.

Don't overuse sandpaper. Worn out sandpaper creates heat and may burnish the wood, making further sanding and finishing difficult. I like the saying...Use sandpaper like someone else is paying for it.

Stop the lathe between grits. Examine the piece for scratches that are deeper than the grit being used. You may have to go back one or two grits to remove a deep scratch. Often, hand sanding a small area with the lathe turned off works well, especially if you've applied oil to the wood.

Don't use black wet-or-dry sandpaper. Black grits can get in the pores of the wood and is very difficult to remove, especially on light colored woods. Finkat sandpaper in 400 and 600 works well. It's available at Craft Supplies USA and possibly other suppliers.

Some turners drag a piece of sandpaper across a sharp metal edge to remove grits that may be standing out from the others. Finally...a use for that unused table saw in a turners shop.

When sanding some difficult woods, do some of the sanding with the lathe in reverse if your lathe has reverse. Reverse sanding can be very effective.

Use a good incandescent task light at a low angle when sanding. creating shadows will make scratches easier to see. Florescent light leaves little or no shadow, making small scratches difficult to see.

[John Keeton]

Wally, great stuff!!! I rarely power sand anymore - much preferring hand sanding of the type of forms I do. On bowls - kind of a rare thing for me, I do power sand. I can certainly vouch for wet sanding with oil, and I find that a 400 grit wet sand really makes for a nice finish sanding for most woods - depending on the intended finish.

[David E Keller]

Thanks for the reminder, Wally. I couldn't agree more with the oil sanding idea, but I'll admit I've been using the finer grits with oil... I'll have to try it with the coarse grits next time I'm struggling with a piece.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Thanks for the tips Wally! I'll bookmark this thread.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks for posting that. I've wondered many of those things.

[Scott Hackler]

Thanks Wally. Thats great information to be shared with fellow turners.

[Jim Burr]

"Sandpaper is a tool, and it's use, especially hand sanding, is seldom discussed."

I think Mr Grumbine said it best when he uses his 80g gouge :D

[Brian McInturff]

Oil sanding can't be mentioned enough It does work wonders. Plus as a bonus it keeps the dust down while you are sanding! The only thing I might disagree with is the 150 grit. 120 to 180 is more than sufficient. Also, how many shops have you been in that they have a "used" sandpaper box. I try to throw all my used sand paper away except for the pieces that have such a light use you can't tell they were used. Sandpaper is cheap enough it's not going to break you and using a worn piece may cost you.

[Rick Markham]

Wally thank you for posting this, I don't power sand (don't have a power sander for the lathe) I think people underestimate hand sanding, it too is an important (often poorly understood) skill. We spend tons of time creating forms, tons of time working on finishing a piece, but often people don't give sanding the attention that it does require.

I do have a question, I don't wet sand (I have on occasion) but this thread brought up a question for you finishing guru's that has been in the back of my head. If you wet sand with Oil (BLO, mineral oil) and you intend to finish the piece with WOP, how do you get the poly to stick? Before finishing with poly are you using a coat of shelac to provide a sealer/surface for the poly to bond to? Do you have to wait for the oil to cure before the final finish is applied. Sorry this isn't intended to hijack your thread, but it has been on my mind, and since you brought up wet sanding with oil...:o

[charlie knighton]

thanks for sharing, not disagreeing, but caution use of low grits hand sanding, you can make a flat spot very easily, one of our better turners, Terry Mitchell, will hold the piece up to the light and the first thing he looks for are flat places

we get to look at his also, in over 5 years i have never seen a flat spot on one of Terrry's pieces

[Wally Dickerman]

thanks for sharing, not disagreeing, but caution use of low grits hand sanding, you can make a flat spot very easily, one of our better turners, Terry Mitchell, will hold the piece up to the light and the first thing he looks for are flat places

we get to look at his also, in over 5 years i have never seen a flat spot on one of Terrry's pieces
If you keep the paper moving then you won't create flat spots. I too look for flat spots in my work and in others. I've been teaching for so long that it's habit. With students I really stress uninterupted curves with no flat spots, and of course I inspect their work as they're turning and after they've finished.

I've found that you can find small irregularities such as flat spots better with your hands than you can with your eyes. I just run my hands over a piece as I examine it.

[Wally Dickerman]

Wally thank you for posting this, I don't power sand (don't have a power sander for the lathe) I think people underestimate hand sanding, it too is an important (often poorly understood) skill. We spend tons of time creating forms, tons of time working on finishing a piece, but often people don't give sanding the attention that it does require.

I do have a question, I don't wet sand (I have on occasion) but this thread brought up a question for you finishing guru's that has been in the back of my head. If you wet sand with Oil (BLO, mineral oil) and you intend to finish the piece with WOP, how do you get the poly to stick? Before finishing with poly are you using a coat of shelac to provide a sealer/surface for the poly to bond to? Do you have to wait for the oil to cure before the final finish is applied. Sorry this isn't intended to hijack your thread, but it has been on my mind, and since you brought up wet sanding with oil...:o
When I oil sand I don't saturate the piece with oil. I just cover the surface. When I 've finished the oil sanding there isn't a trace of it to be seen. A small amount will have soaked in but I've never found that it affected any finish that I've used.

I don't really recommend using mineral oil. Mineral oil never dries completely.
You say that you don't wet sand. I suggest that you give oil sanding a try. It really works.

[Prashun Patel]

Wally, here's a dumb question: Do you oil sand with the lathe on? Whenever I try to do that, the paper loads up so quick, it just doesn't seem right.

[Wally Dickerman]

Wally, here's a dumb question: Do you oil sand with the lathe on? Whenever I try to do that, the paper loads up so quick, it just doesn't seem right.

Yes you're right, it does load up the paper very fast. So you use a little more sandpaper. The final results are well worth it. 80 grit with oil will end up looking like you've sanded with 150 (don't skip 120 because of that). And..any torn wood surface is gone!

[Bernie Weishapl]

Wally great tips and thank you for sharing. My old mentor told me to use sandpaper like someone else was buying it. He said to many turners use a piece sandpaper till it is not a piece of sandpaper any more.

[Lee Koepke]

Awesome! Thanks for sharing that Wally.... I've never thought of oil sanding early, always done that in the 400-600 grit stage.

Also, what do we use when they take all the incandescents off the market !!!! Its getting harder to find them at the store ....

[Steve Schlumpf]

Excellent tips Wally! I will have to give that oil sanding method a try!

[Don Alexander]

how many shops have you been in that they have a "used" sandpaper box

i have a used sandpaper box ............................................ its called a trashcan :D

and its right under my lathe for convenient discarding ofany piece of sandpaper thats been used i have nowhere to put used paper other than the trash box (thats intentional)

[Rick Markham]

THanks Wally, I will definitely be giving it a try now that you have answered what has been giving me a mental block regarding it. Thanks for another tool in my tool chest!

[Bob Aumock]

Wally,

Great info. Have a novice question. Does it matter what type of oil, say Tung Oil, Antique Oil BLO etc is used to wet sand ? I presume you would use the same type of oil to sand with as the piece would be finished with, such as you would wet sand with Tung Oil if the piece was to be finished with Tung Oil, sand with Antique Oil if the finish was to be Antique Oil etc.

Thx,
Bob

[Joe Little]

Wally

This is a great thread, I have learned alot new stuff and revisited the old. Now if we can just get you to post your other handouts:)

[Wally Dickerman]

[QUOTE=Bob Aumock;1655768]Wally,

Great info. Have a novice question. Does it matter what type of oil, say Tung Oil, Antique Oil BLO etc is used to wet sand ? I presume you would use the same type of oil to sand with as the piece would be finished with, such as you would wet sand with Tung Oil if the piece was to be finished with Tung Oil, sand with Antique Oil if the finish was to be Antique Oil etc.

Bob, you can use just about any finishing oil for oil sanding. If you plan to use oil for a finish then of course use the same oil for sanding. When I apply the oil I don't saturate the wood, I just wipe some on using a paper towel while the lathe is running slowly. The sandpaper will clog quickly so I add a bit more oil and use another piece of sp. After I've finished and am ready to go on to the next grit, the oil will have disappeared.

[BILL DONAHUE]

Wally, thanks for the wisdom. What type of oil do you use and do you hand sand with the grain before moving up to the next grit?

[Lee Koepke]

Wally .. I tried it this evening! Wet sanded a bowl with BLO for the 80 grit and 100 grit .... it certainly made those first grits WAY easier.

Bill ... I did a few passes with the grain before moving up the next level, like I do for pens. with the light at the right angle, you can see where it helps.

[Dan Forman]

I tried this on a small elm vase I turned yesterday, but I used quite a bit of BLO, and with the first two grits. As a result, the paper clogged quickly in all the grits, but the end result was still good - I think. The piece was green and still pretty damp, so it got oil, then a coat of Antique Oil, and is now drying in a bag. It was very smooth though.

Dan

[Wally Dickerman]

Wally, thanks for the wisdom. What type of oil do you use and do you hand sand with the grain before moving up to the next grit?

I just use whatever finishing oil I have on hand. Don't apply too much. Just wet the surface using a paper towel. Hand sanding with the grain? Depends on the wood. Some woods seem to need more sanding care than others. I always do with small spindle turnings though. Pens, finials etc.

[Tom Caldwell]

Thanks for this great post, Wally. Cleared up my questions about the grit progression typically used. I'll defintely try the oil sanding.

[Michelle Rich]

glad you posted this..yes sanding has beconme a 3 hsp. endeavor.. A super sanding job, takes attention to detail & that takes handwork.

[GLENN THOMAS]

If sandpaper can clog when oil sanding what about the pores in the wood. Is this ever a problem when using something like oak ?

[Dan Forman]

If sandpaper can clog when oil sanding what about the pores in the wood. Is this ever a problem when using something like oak ?

I imagine it would fill the pores pretty well.

Dan