Members please note- disallowed links. [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Dan Moening

01-23-2005, 11:47 AM

What about extracting a photograph of a particular item on Ebay as reference for discussion?

I realize that some folks use professional photographers to enhance their wares, but the overall majority do not. {and the ones that do, don't appear to have provided credit anyway} Vendio, etc are simply photo hosting sites and not a photographer, right?

I'm a little unclear at times what constitutes "public domain"....and post this question as I'm sure others are as well.

I'm as quilty as the next quy about posting links to other forums...probably should have actually read the TOS :o:D ... a practice I will now cease {the link posting that is ;)}.

Thanks for the reminder!

John Pollman

01-23-2005, 12:01 PM

Ken Salisbury

01-24-2005, 9:02 AM

One quick question about links....

If someone starts a thread asking for help with a particular specific question on something and needs help with how to do it or where to get something to do what he/she needs to do, is it ok to post a link to a product somewhere that will solve the problem ?
i.e. earlier today someone asked about cleaning sandpaper on his drum sander. I suggested a "belt cleaner" and found one on the net and posted a link to it. Is that permissable ? Just curious. I'm new here and don't want to get on anyones bad side.

Thanks !

John

Direct links to web site pages both personal and business sites are permitted if the page in question is germain to the subject of the thread. Your example of a web page showing the "belt cleaner" is an example of one that would definitely be permitted. Links to "public forums" or public auctions like e-bay are not permitted.

Ken Salisbury

01-24-2005, 9:05 AM

What about extracting a photograph of a particular item on Ebay as reference for discussion?

Posting a photo of an item germain to the thread topic is certainly permitted. A direct link to the auction would not be.

Marc Hills

01-24-2005, 11:24 AM

So there is no misunderstanding, let me preface this post by saying that SMC exists solely because of the good graces and (largely) unsupported service of Hampton Roads Online Ltd. We of course must abide by the terms of service, whatever they may be. If we disagree with those terms, we are free to go elsewhere. I understand and respect that, truly I do.

But I'm aware of at least one recent post involving a link to a closed eBay auction showing an antique tool that the poster had just purchased. He was trying to get information on the manufacturer and quality of the item he had bought.

He had not yet received the item, so linking to the closed auction featuring pictures of the tool was the most practical way to illustrate his purchase.

In response to Dave's reminder, I've reread the terms of service. For the life of me I can't see how this eBay link runs afoul of them.

Certainly, this link to eBay was not done “for the sole purpose of marketing, generating traffic to a site, or any other commercial advertisement deemed to solicit commercial benefit.” The item had already been purchased by the thread topic initiator and he was merely seeking additional information from other forum members. Old tool heritage is certainly one of the most popular and germane topics of discussion in the Neanderthal Haven forum in which this thread and link appeared.

And I don’t see how references to closed eBay auctions could be interpreted as prohibited “Links to other public or private forums.” Or are we talking about a definition that is substantially different from what is commonly understood to be an internet forum?

In reading the terms of service policy, the post in question seemed to include the link in accordance with the permissible link policy: “Links should be submitted as references, for the sole purpose of generating or supporting discussions on SawMill Creek.”

Yet Ken is now advising us that links to public auctions are categorically prohibited.

Just so I don’t run afoul of the terms of service, and can fully understand how they may apply to other types of “public or private forums”, is this type of linking to closed eBay auctions for items purchased by the thread participant prohibited? If so, can you explain why? And please, what is a “public or private forum?”

Sincerely,

Ken Salisbury

01-24-2005, 11:32 AM

So there is no misunderstanding, let me preface this post by saying that SMC exists solely because of the good graces and (largely) unsupported service of Hampton Roads Online Ltd. We of course must abide by the terms of service, whatever they may be. If we disagree with those terms, we are free to go elsewhere. I understand and respect that, truly I do.

But I'm aware of at least one recent post involving a link to a closed eBay auction showing an antique tool that the poster had just purchased. He was trying to get information on the manufacturer and quality of the item he had bought.

He had not yet received the item, so linking to the closed auction featuring pictures of the tool was the most practical way to illustrate his purchase.

In response to Dave's reminder, I've reread the terms of service. For the life of me I can't see how this eBay link runs afoul of them.

Certainly, this link to eBay was not done “for the sole purpose of marketing, generating traffic to a site, or any other commercial advertisement deemed to solicit commercial benefit.” The item had already been purchased by the thread topic initiator and he was merely seeking additional information from other forum members. Old tool heritage is certainly one of the most popular and germane topics of discussion in the Neanderthal Haven forum in which this thread and link appeared.

And I don’t see how references to closed eBay auctions could be interpreted as prohibited “Links to other public or private forums.” Or are we talking about a definition that is substantially different from what is commonly understood to be an internet forum?

In reading the terms of service policy, the post in question seemed to include the link in accordance with the permissible link policy: “Links should be submitted as references, for the sole purpose of generating or supporting discussions on SawMill Creek.”

Yet Ken is now advising us that links to public auctions are categorically prohibited.

Just so I don’t run afoul of the terms of service, and can understand the terms of service and how they may apply to other types of “public or private forums”, is this type of linking to closed eBay auctions for items purchased by the thread participant prohibited? If so, can you explain why? And please, what is a “public or private forum?”

Sincerely,

The decision to ban links to "auctions" perse was made after the TOS was finalized. The decision was made because folks were using SMC to promote their own auctions. All direct links were determined to be prohibited. As far as closed auctions go - the moderators do not have time to go to the link to see if it is an open, closed or the poster's auction. Therefore - ALL direct links to auctions are prohibited.

Public Forums are just what the name implies - where the forum is open to the public to read. A private forum would be one where you have to log in with a password in order to read any information therein.

Please see this thread for what is and what is not allowed:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=16170

Chris Thompson

01-24-2005, 3:41 PM

First, let me come clean. I'm one of the culprits who started this whole thing by posting to an ebay auction I had just won and asking if anyone knew anything about the brand. I could even be the only culprit, singular. I just noticed that Tom LaRussa's "How much would you bid?" thread didn't actually link to the ebay auction itself.

Dave Anderson dropped me a simple and very gentle PM with a good natured message telling me that my thread had, in fact, violated the AUP. I told Dave that I hadn't realized what I had done was against the policy and I wouldn't do it again. I then got PM's from others asking if it were me. So I wanted to make a public statement so everyone was clear.

First, don't think that anyone ticked me off. Dave was very reasonable, didn't delete the thread, and simply asked nicely that I not do it again. This message has been difficult for me to write because I definitely don't want anyone to think this is sour grapes. It's not.

Second, I'm a web admin by trade and have been in some form or another for more years than I care to count. I know what kind of mayhem users can wreak on a public system. As an admin, more often than not I find myself cursing end users. This place is a contradiction to me. Intelligent conversation by reasonable people with a minimum of noise. I love it, and the rules are obviously a part of that.

Third, Marc Hills said it best, we're all here by the good graces of Hampton Roads. It's their money, their servers, their time, their bandwidth, and ultimately, their responsibility. If the crew behind this site were to dictate that all posts be written in iambic pentameter with a pirate accent, I'd respect that, because the value of this place outweighs the hassle. Oh, um, Arrrrrrr, matey.

With all that in mind, however, I think the policy as stated here and in Ken's other thread is wrong, and I'd love to hear opinions of others on the issue.

The Neander board in particular is based around a collector type of toolset. There are going to be questions about items on ebay, which site sells reasonable japanese chisels, hey-how-about-them-adria-saws. It strains credulity to think that someone saying "Tashiro Hardware has great japanese saws" is somehow cleaner than telling someone to go to their website, which is the name of the the company as above, followed by .com.

This all came about because, as I told Dave, I thought the rules were in place to keep someone from drumming up business, and that a link to a closed ebay auction didn't seem to violate that. Again, it's a real stretch to think that a link to a specific auction is somehow different than telling someone to go to ebay and search for a particular auction name or number.

If the rules are in place to protect Hampton Roads in some way, I guess I have no reason to complain. If they're to facilitate honest and even discussion, then I, for one, would vote that at least the Neander forum be set free in the way the Classifieds forum must be. I'd much rather have clearer information with an honor-among-thieves type agreement to indicate that one has no commercial ties to a group.

I'd also be happy to take this discussion over to the Support Forum if people want.

Just a thought, and I'll continue to be a regular user of SMC no matter the outcome.

Clay Craig

01-30-2005, 11:29 PM

"He who pays the piper calls the tune," but I'd agree that the policy is misguided. I think that the stifling effect of barring the links is far worse than the annoyance of the rare self-promoting post. Plus, as mentioned, it's a simple matter to just list an auction number, and a rule the effect of which is simply to require a few extra steps from everyone, but which doesn't prevent those seeking traffic from dodging its impact, to some degree promotes disrespect for rules generally.

I can understand that some feel it impolite to link to, or even mention, ongoing auctions, and that rule's livable. While understanding that the listmoms can't check every link to see if the auction's current or not, rulebreaking around here doesn't seem so rampant that a rule regarding 'open' auctions would be violated very often, and obviously no one would ordinarily have a commercial interest in a closed auction.

Do the moderators feel that, if the rule were 'no link to or mention of open auctions,' the number of violations would be unmanageable?

Just one more opinion,

Clay

Keith Outten

01-31-2005, 8:15 AM

Clay,

Your question would be better directed to our members. When we discussed the issue of links to auctions the majority of our members who voiced an opinion were against the practice. The decision at that time was to keep our classifieds closed to any outside entities, the basic idea is to provide a means for our members to buy and sell without competing against those who were not members of SawMill Creek. Transactions between Members of SMC tend to be more honest and many here are more comfortable knowing that they are dealing with a member of our community.

The reasoning behind most of our Terms of Service is to protect our Community from commercial advertising and outside interests. Of course we recognize that we need to communicate with various businesses that provide the tools and equipment we purchase but we try to control how and when that happens. Our members are the primary Moderators here at the Creek and they provide the first line of defense if you will by reporting anything they feel is detrimental to our community. If our TOS seems to be very conservative it is because we listen to our members and they tend to be conservative on matters that involve our community.

Clay Craig

01-31-2005, 11:58 AM

Thanks Mr. Outten,

That all makes sense. Though, it does seem that all those goals would be equally well served by a ban on links (or even references) to open auctions only - and, as a philosophical matter, I tend to think rules should be broad enough to prevent their contemplated ill, but no broader.

Certainly I have never been remotely connected with operating these systems, and maybe a link to a closed auction is undesirable for some reason. But, from time to time I'd like to be able to link to a closed auction, if only to ask the more experienced members here questions (admittedly, mostly questions along the lines of 'What the heck is this ... and why's it worth that?')

I mostly intended to chime in that I thought Chris's post made good points - but the most important of those was the last one, and I agree with him on that one as well!

Cordially,
Clay

John Davies

07-11-2006, 7:01 AM

As a newcomer to this forum, I've just stumbled across this thread. I have to say, although I fully support the intent behind the stated policy, it can have some unintended side-effects...

I recently reviewed the Eurekazone SGS (completely non-commercially, as an amateur woodworker) on a UK woodworking forum.

The link to it was put up as part of a thread on the eurekazone 'manufacturer's board' here (not by myself, I might add). It was a purely 'for members' info' post: the link has apparently been removed because it violates the policy with respect to links.

This does seem a little odd: if one allows a board specifically dedicated to a manufacturer's product, it's difficult to see linking to an independent, privately written review as somehow attempting to shill/bilk anyone, or commercially push a product.

That said, I absolutely, 100% agree that 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'. It just strikes me that the effect - of denying members access to an independent critique of a system they may be interested in - is probably not what was intended...

Mark Rios

07-11-2006, 10:16 AM

This topic seems to come up fairly often, TOO often in my opinion.

I'm not sure what the big stinking deal is. While the TOS may, at one point, have been vague regarding this issue, the specific point has been stated over and over again; DIRECT LINKS TO EBAY ARE NOT PERMITTED!

No one is going to die, lose a limb, become ill, get depressed, be harmed by nor lose any money over NOT directly linking to an Ebay auction. Just don't do it. Post a pic and/or the auction number and you've done the same thing. The reader, if necessary, can make a couple of extra clicks and see whatever they may, or may not, need to see.

WHY DO SOME FEEL THE NEED TO KEEP CHALLENGING THE ADMINISTRATORS AND MODERATORS OVER THIS SILLY POINT.!!!!!!!

If this one very small issue is so terrible to someone and that person is so hindered is his/her daily life by not being able to directly link to Ebay then you have the choice of not participating here at Saw Mill Creek.

Please, I implore you, let's don't keep wasting the admins and moderators time and energies by rehashing and rehashing and rehashing and rehashing and rehashing this issue. Let's all be grown ups and follow the rules. The admins and mods are NOT out to get us.

John Davies

07-11-2006, 10:23 AM

Wow! Mark - the only challenging post here appears to be yours. The rest of the thread has been very calm, and has sought clarification on particular points. Virtually every post has clearly stated that the concept and rationale is fully understood, but that it leads some issues that it might be nice to resolve, if it were possible. No need to shout!!

Mark Rios

07-11-2006, 10:25 AM

okay :D............

Chuck Saunders

07-11-2006, 10:56 AM

Hi Mark,
The point that I see is the the TOS does not say explicitly that links to e-bay are not permitted. As a result, in good faith a user checks the TOS and finds the section on posting links to be vague and ambiguous but understands the underlying theme to be use your best judgement. The user should not have to search up these recurring threads to find the refinements to the TOS. As a result the user posts their link and the moderator informs them "however gently" that they should not have posted the link. Surprised that they have not understood the TOS they reread and find that they don't see the error of their ways. So they ask the question and start a new thread. The responce that comes back is a very clear statement of what cannot be linked along with an admission that the TOS is vague and a statement that the TOS is the result of the wishes of the majority at the time of instatement. To me it seems that the TOS would benifit from being clarified, and the TOS is not strictly a Mandate from on high, but reflects the intentions of the community and can bear the weight of discussion. None of this takes away the sovereignty of the SMC owners. I am more confused about the manufacturers forums but that is another subject.
Thanks for listening
Chuck

Mark Rios

07-11-2006, 11:26 AM

You're right Chick, that's the one point that, If I was going to question, I would question; Why the TOS aren't clarified on this point or changed to include a specific point about Ebay. However, I really don't care about whether a change occurs or not. Since I have read umpteen threads with posts from the admins and mods stating over and over that direct links to Ebay are not permitted, then I know not to do it. I don't care why. It doesn't harm me nor inconvenience me. I know good and well that at least most of the people here in the Creek are smarter than I am and can infer the jist of what the admins want. I see no point in wasting the admins and mods time with the disagreement. The issue HAS been clarified, if not in the TOS then CERTAINLY in the many, many posts on the subject. Let it go and just don't do it. If you still want to and do, then don't complain when the post gets modified or deleted.

By this time, with all the posts on the subject, even my dogs know not to make direct links to Ebay.

:D :D :D

Hi Mark,
The point that I see is the the TOS does not say explicitly that links to e-bay are not permitted. As a result, in good faith a user checks the TOS and finds the section on posting links to be vague and ambiguous but understands the underlying theme to be use your best judgement. The user should not have to search up these recurring threads to find the refinements to the TOS. As a result the user posts their link and the moderator informs them "however gently" that they should not have posted the link. Surprised that they have not understood the TOS they reread and find that they don't see the error of their ways. So they ask the question and start a new thread. The responce that comes back is a very clear statement of what cannot be linked along with an admission that the TOS is vague and a statement that the TOS is the result of the wishes of the majority at the time of instatement. To me it seems that the TOS would benifit from being clarified, and the TOS is not strictly a Mandate from on high, but reflects the intentions of the community and can bear the weight of discussion. None of this takes away the sovereignty of the SMC owners. I am more confused about the manufacturers forums but that is another subject.
Thanks for listening
Chuck

Lee DeRaud

07-11-2006, 11:44 AM

Mark Rios

07-11-2006, 12:01 PM

Touche' Lee. Please don't hurt me. :D :D :D

To answer your question....I don't know. That's the exact same thing that I asked, my friend. Twice. I just don't care if there is an answer. I know what they want and that's it.

Incidentally, or maybe not so incidentally, depending on your feelings, my opinions aren't directed at anyone in particular. Especially not Chuck. I was just responding to his question but not AT him so, if he felt that then I apologize to him. Chuck, you are my best friend in this thread. And Lee, you are my second best friend in this thread. :D :D :D

Mark, you have a two-year head start over Chuck dealing with this subject, so of course you have read "umpteen threads with posts from the admins and mods", but he hasn't. Cut him some slack.

But maybe you can answer this question: if it's that big a deal, why hasn't the TOS just been freakin' updated instead of going through this mickey-mouse sticky-post "clarification" nonsense? By definition, the TOS is where the new members go to find out the "rules of the road"...in fact, they're told to read it when they sign up. Why make them go on a scavenger hunt to find all the amendments that have been made since the TOS was created?

Curt Harms

07-11-2006, 12:16 PM

Mark, you have a two-year head start over Chuck dealing with this subject, so of course you have read "umpteen threads with posts from the admins and mods", but he hasn't. Cut him some slack.

But maybe you can answer this question: if it's that big a deal, why hasn't the TOS just been freakin' updated instead of going through this mickey-mouse sticky-post "clarification" nonsense? By definition, the TOS is where the new members go to find out the "rules of the road"...in fact, they're told to read it when they sign up. Why make them go on a scavenger hunt to find all the amendments that have been made since the TOS was created?

It doesn't seem like too big a job to state in unequivocal terms in the TOS that certain direct links are not permitted. Once a poster is clear on that, it should require little imagination to post a non-direct link as has been mentioned previously. For example, would posting an ebay link without the http or www portion be acceptable? No need for a tempest in a teacup, placid creek waters are more enjoyable.

Curt

Randy Meijer

07-11-2006, 7:38 PM

Another "tempest in a teapot" or whatever the saying is!!!

There is a very simple solution to this problem that satisfies both sides.

Simply post the eBay auction number in your thread.

Those who want to look at the auction can "COPY" the number and search for it directly on eBay.

With such a simple alternative available, it seems like a terrible waste of time to debate this policy? :confused: :rolleyes: :confused:

Matt Meiser

07-11-2006, 7:58 PM

With such a simple alternative available, it seems like a terrible waste of time to debate this policy? :confused: :rolleyes: :confused:

Then Ken won't get a chance to step in and say that this is the rule...yada, yada, yada...I'm locking this thread. :D :D :D

Cue Ken....

Lee DeRaud

07-11-2006, 8:08 PM

With such a simple alternative available, it seems like a terrible waste of time to debate this policy? :confused: :rolleyes: :confused:It would indeed be a terrible waste of time to debate this policy.

But as near as I can tell, nobody here is debating the policy. In fact what some of us are asking for is that this policy be formally codified in the TOS where new (and old) members will see it so this question doesn't keep coming up again...and again...and again...and again.

Keith Outten

07-11-2006, 8:30 PM

It is my fault that the TOS hasn't been updated properly. My personal schedule this last year (two jobs) combined with the problems we have had to deal with since our move from HRO to my shop office have been about all I could deal with. Many issues that needed attention were moved to the back burner as we had to deal with one problem after another...like the recent IP Address issue, hardware problems three months ago, etc.

When Aaron was swamped with work at William and Mary last fall he was unable to attend to his duties here for a short time and several of us had to take up the slack which we did as best we could. The overtime Aaron was working made it impossible for him to visit the Creek and he had very little time to perform the adminstrative duties on the server itself. In recent weeks Aaron has purchased his first home, this is something we all know can be very time consuming and requires a lot of personal time.

These kinds of things happen to us all, life is often a bumpy road with lots of zigs and zags we must all deal with. When it happens to Aaron or myself it is more visible here at SMC because of our responsibilities here but we both know when things need immediate attention and understand that some things can wait.

As in nature "The Creek" is able to deal with inclement weather and the Storms of Life with the help from over 8.000 caring guardians. Aaron and I will catch up sometime soon, in the meantime our inability to perform certain functions are just a minor ripple in the water that are of no serious concern.

I am very pleased to announce that the new $29,000,000.00 Student Union at Christopher Newport University, which I have been the Project Inspector for the last 2.5 years, will be turned over to the customer next Monday July 17th. I have fullfilled my obligation to CNU thoughout the construction of Potomac River Residence Hall and the new Student Union.

My life will be much less hectic in just one more week :)

Matt Meiser

07-11-2006, 9:08 PM

I am very pleased to announce that the new $29,000,000.00 Student Union at Christopher Newport University, which I have been the Project Inspector for the last 2.5 years, will be turned over to the customer next Monday July 17th. I have fullfilled my obligation to CNU thoughout the construction of Potomac River Residence Hall and the new Student Union.

My life will be much less hectic in just one more week :)

Sounds like a gloat to me. But...no pictures--didn't happen!

Keith Outten

07-12-2006, 6:40 AM

Sounds like a gloat to me. But...no pictures--didn't happen!

Pictures are on the way. I have taken over 2000 pictures thoughout the construction of the bulding so I have a record of each phase of the project. The Student Union is trimmed to the nines, the millwork is especially beautifull and I have gained new respect for the woodworking craftsmen who are able to work at this quality level. All of the trim is solid cherry with large columns, arches, handrails and solid panel walls. For a woodworker this building has eye-candy everywhere you look. The cherry scraps from just the trim work would fill up several large dumpsters, it is heartbreaking to see so much cherry thrown away. I must have brought home enough small scrap pieces to make 10,000 pens, I don't have any more storage space to keep any more.

There isn't a web site for the construction of the project so I will have to post pictures here at the Creek so there won't be any links that violate our TOS :)

Jason Roehl

07-12-2006, 8:54 AM

There isn't a web site for the construction of the project so I will have to post pictures here at the Creek so there won't be any links that violate our TOS :)

That's a bit of a stretch to bring your post back on topic, but we'll let it slide...:D

Congrats on the (almost) completion of the project! Have a beer or three! As long as behind the scenes SMC isn't a house of cards about to collapse, it looks like it's running just fine to me. If you guys need anything, just ASK.

Keith Outten

07-12-2006, 7:44 PM

Thanks Jason,

SMC is alive and well right now, it appears that Aaron has everything flowing perfectly, a collapse would be a real surprise but anything is possible when computers are involved. Now that the water is smooth again Aaron and I need to get back to the task of putting together a new server.

Tuesday evening is a time for celebration.

Mark Rios

07-12-2006, 9:34 PM

.............Tuesday evening is a time for celebration.

But............today is Wednesday. :confused: :confused: :confused:

:D

Ken Salisbury

07-13-2006, 6:41 AM

The admins and mods are NOT out to get us.

Sometimes just a few words say it all.

http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif

Keith Outten

07-13-2006, 3:35 PM

Matt,

Below is a picture of the north entrance to our new 127,000 square foot Student Union. This is what has been consuming all my shop time since April 2004. All 75 of the exterior brick arches on this building are true roman style arches, there is no steel support structure for the arches.

Many more pictures of the inside of the building and all the beautifull woodwork will follow very soon.

Back on topic! Dave's point about not posting links to Ebay was a decision that our Members made because they didn't want to see people registering here just to post links to their Ebay auctions. The advertising influence of auction sites is very strong and would soon spill over into our Forums. I know that some will disagree with this policy but remember we are a Woodworking Community not a shopping mall.

Matt Meiser

07-13-2006, 6:00 PM

Phil Clark

04-13-2007, 10:31 AM

I'm relatively new here and just read this thread. I recently posted the item numbers for 2 ebay completed sales because of the unique items and amazing high prices. The intention was to have others share in the experience of a recent happening, nothing more. I'm still not clear if I violated the policy and would appreciate clarification because I often see out-of-the-ordinary tools sold on ebay that are interesting to collectors. I might also add that there is a way on ebay to view past sales but only for ebay members.

Lee DeRaud

04-13-2007, 11:06 AM

Not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but...

It's been nine months since this thread was active and the TOS still doesn't mention auctions in general or EBay in particular.

And we've had thousands of new members join since then. I'm guessing that a rather low percentage of them view the neander forum and/or have seen this thread.

Dave Anderson NH

04-13-2007, 11:51 AM

Hi Lee,

As you might have noticed from threads on the Support Forum, Keith and Aaron have been pretty busy lately. Getting the new server to take over the SMC load has been a bear with all of the reconfigurations, software upgrades, and associated hassles that always come when new software and hardware are installed. After saying that, you do have a point. The broader problem is that which we all face, we have regular jobs, family obligations, and of course it's nice to have some time to spend in the shop or just viewing and posting to SMC.

About all I can say is that a major rewrite and clarification of the TOS is still in the cards, but we can't promise when.

David Sizemore

07-07-2008, 3:24 PM

Hi All...

Just signed up and found this thread. Noticed it has been over a year since a post on the topic, and the TOS is still dated 2003. I have no interest in posting 'auction' links (or any other links, for that matter), but, honestly, how long DOES it take to update the rules?

John Shuk

07-08-2008, 9:33 PM

Alot longer than it takes for people who criticize to make a donation of $6.00 and become contributors;)

Dave Anderson NH

07-09-2008, 11:17 AM

Hi David, The revisions of the TOS are partly finished, but many other projects and enhancements to the Creek took priority. Since the original thread was posted our membership has grown by over 200% and new server capacity was purchased, configured, and installed to prevent slowdowns to service. There were also many new forums set up, a major configure and install of the latest Vbulletin board software, and a host of additional prohects doen behind the scenes that aren't at all apparent to either new or older members.

The TOS are being both updated and significantly clarified to remove confursion as to what is and what is not allowed. Patience and forbearance please.

Mike Cogswell

03-05-2013, 10:10 AM

<snip>The TOS are being both updated and significantly clarified to remove confusion as to what is and what is not allowed. Patience and forbearance please.

This was written almost five years ago. Since then, in 2011, the TOS was updated. Yet it is still silent on the issue of eBay links. While it is crystal clear that no links to other forums, or any links for commercial purposes, are allowed there is still no reference to eBay in the TOS.

Since I am a relatively new member, I'm just trying to understand the current policy. Is there a blanket prohibition against ANY eBay links or are links that are directly related to a discussion permitted?

Dave Anderson NH

03-05-2013, 12:22 PM

Hi Mike,

Links to eBay for any purpose are prohibited. We would like to allow them if they directly answer a question in a post, but unfortunately the shills these days have become more sophisticated and will initiate threads just to be able to insert a link and drive traffic to a particular item to generate bidding and a sale. I don't think most folks on SMC are aware of how much is deleted by the moderator staff that is solely designed to promote websites, products, or auctions. The latest wrinkle is reviving years old threads and then inserting a link to a product or website that might or might not be related to the topic at hand. Mostly when the IP address is checked out we find the offenders originate in Pakistan, the Phillipines, China, Taiwan, India, or somewhere else in Asia.

Mike Cogswell

03-05-2013, 2:20 PM

Hi Dave

Thanks for the reply. I understand the policy. I hope you understand why I was confused, since the last message in this thread before I resurrected it was in 2008 and the TOS dated 2011 clearly does NOT have a blanket prohibition against eBay links.

I don't have any issue with the policy, but why not simply include the first eight words of your above reply in the TOS and be done with it once and for all?

Regards

Keith Outten

03-05-2013, 2:31 PM

The prohibition involving Ebay links was requested by the Members of this Community when we started the Classifieds Forum....long after SawMill Creek was established. This is why you won't see any direct reference to this rule in our Terms Of Service (TOS).

From our Support Forum - Our Terms of Service clearly states that we allow you to provide a link if it adds to the discussion. This also means that you can't build a discussion around a link for the purpose of financial gain or promotion.

From our Classifieds Forum Rules thread - We do not allow links to ebay in any of our forums.

Revising our TOS is not as simple a matter as you would expect. The rules here were written in a very specific manner which allows our Staff the flexibility necessary to manage our Community without ten thousand individual rules. We have provided some clarification of the TOS in our Support Forum via a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) thread. There are also supplemental rules in various Forums that are Sticky Threads, these provide rules that are specific to each particular Forum.

Our Moderators have performed a comprehensive review of our TOS and have provided me with a list of proposed changes. I agree with almost every one of the suggested changes, the problem I have is that I don't want to have a comprehensive list of rules that make things more complicated than I feel they need to be. We all know that there is a large percentage of our Community who have never read our Terms Of Service, even though they agreed to abide by the rules when they registered. Imagine if everyone here was required to read fifty pages of very detailed rules, it would never happen. Honestly there isn't any way that I could memorize such a document much less expect over 70,000 people to read and comprehend such a thing.

After ten years of managing SawMill Creek I can tell you that the range of problems we have had to deal with has been mind boggling. The way our TOS is written provides us with the necessary flexibility to apply the rules, as fairly as possible while preserving the intent and our ability to interpret how the rules apply, to just about any situation.

We do need to complete the revision of our TOS at some point in time. The task has not been given a high priority by me simply because the existing rules have served us well for ten years and there are so many other things that needed to be done over the last few years. The strain of working a day job, running my own sign shop and being the Administrator here has taken its toll so I recently retired from Christopher Newport University. Now that I am down to just two full time jobs there will be a little more time to get things done but there will never be enough time or funds to implement all of the things that we would like to do here.

Remember that SawMill Creek is a subsidiary of Northwind Associates Inc. which is my sign business. Sign Business means I already have a full plate marketing, bidding, fabricating, installing and a host of other normal business activities. Now that I am self-employed again I have to step up the pace in my sign shop once again so I can pay the light bill and buy some food every week :)
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