Want to build a garage with 2nd floor shop

[Mark Hultzapple]

Hi guys,
I recently moved to rancher house. It doesn't have a garage or any work space and I want to build a three car garage with a work shop possibly on the second floor. I want to maintain 1st floor for cars. The garage will be inset into the side of a a six foot embankment making the access to second floor only a few steps up in the rear of the structure. The problem is I don't want to dwarf the house with a large two story building. Does anyone have a garage with a second floor shop using a saltbox style roof. I was thinking the long section of roof would be in the front giving the appearance of single story. Would this work? Any advice or concerns would be appreciated.

[Thomas Bank]

That is basically what I did. Garage and metalworking shop downstairs with woodworking shop upstairs. The two stories face my house and the saltbox-style roof faces the rear property line. My house is a story and a half bungalow and the shop is at the back of the property, so it doesn't overwhelm the house.

[Ray Newman]

Since you did not state where you live, my thought is: are there any zoning or any other restriction(s) on what you want to build?

I would first look into that before investing too much time, effort, and dreams, only to find out that the local building codes, homeowners, etc., will not let you build what you want.

[Kevin W Johnson]

I'm assuming you know that the builder and/or architect will need to know of your plans for the second story, so it has proper structural support for the weight of equipment. Just tossing that out there, sometimes we as humans forget what should be obvious.

[Mark Hultzapple]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses
Ray, I live in a rural township but I hadn't thought about checking with zoning office about the type of structure. I did discuss setbacks and such with them. I have a triangular lot on a culdesac which causes setback problems occassionally. Setting a rectangle in a triangle doesn't always work well with setbacks.
Kevin, I haven't talked to anyone yet about plans but I did think of weight considerations for both wood storage and equipment. I will have them take that into consideration when plans are in the works.
Thomas, i would be interested in a little more information about your garage/workshop. I was wondering what the floor area is especially on second floor. Do you have any ceiling height problems or reduced shop size with the salt box roof? What I picture in my head is sloping ceiling with short knee walls reducing usable floor space.

[Chris Parks]

I did it the other way, garage on top and workshop below. For the top floor I used sheet 3/4 waterproof pineboard with a two pack poly on it and it is still there 20 years later. The support for the top floor is steel C section lightweight joists welded into universal beams and that was a monster job. Those were the days when I could stick weld properly. Your consulting engineer will have all the answers.

[Alan Schaffter]

The main house is styled like a Carolina "coastal cottage." The second story of the attached garage holds my shop. I worked with the builder to add a third bay and the loft door, change the roof line in the back and lowered the floor 18" for a full 8' ceiling in back and 10' in the center. The appearance from the back is not as nice. There was no embankment so I had more of a problem getting stuff up to the shop. I designed a folding I-beam w/electric hoist which works great!

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P4230014.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P6070012.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P6070015.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/PC140051.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/PC140058.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P6070005.JPG

[Thomas Bank]

Thomas, i would be interested in a little more information about your garage/workshop. I was wondering what the floor area is especially on second floor. Do you have any ceiling height problems or reduced shop size with the salt box roof? What I picture in my head is sloping ceiling with short knee walls reducing usable floor space.

I have about 1500 s.f. total - 900 s.f. on the first floor and 600 s.f. on the second floor. With metalworking and automotive work, the first floor has 10.5' ceilings. The second floor has 8'-4" ceilings. With the saltbox roof at the back, I have my workbenches and tools toward the front of the space and storage at the back under the sloping ceiling. I'd have to go measure, but I think I have at least 14' to 16' of floorspace with full ceiling height before the ceiling starts sloping down.

Have to see if I can get some pictures up that illustrate the design.

[Mark Hultzapple]

Alan,
The hoist is a great idea. I like that it swings in side when not in use. You're shop/garage design is similar to what I had in mind as well and it looks like you have plenty of head room on the second floor. That leads to the next question and that is what type of truss/rafter system did you use for that ceiling height? What did you use for the floor framing to support the equipment? BTW I have relatives in Wilmington N.C. so I know the Carolina coastal cottage design you mention. Thanks for the pics Alan, you have a beautiful property there.
Thomas,
That sounds like the size garage I will end up with. Same question to you, what was the truss/rafter system to get the ceiling height. Scissor trusses? I would appreciate any pics you could offer but don't go to too much trouble. Thanks in advance.

[Ian Parish]

I am not sure what the Saltbox style roof is, so I will just tell you what I did. Around here in Utah they call a room above a garage a "Bonus Room" this is what I got. My garage is 38 feet wide and the bonus room built right into the huge trusses is 19 feet wide and 8 feet high. The outer walls have a pony wall about 4 feet high and slope to the 8 foot ceiling. This is nice and wide and has room for moving around and standing up, It has an over all A frame shape and feel. I did not plan to have 1000's pounds of equipment up there but I would not worry about it if I started filling it with tools. The walls that support this room are all 2x6'. this room for me is going to have a TV, pool table, office and painting room, and kitchenette. Building a room like this was pretty easy, it was just part of the trusses.

I will try to remember to get some pictures together.

On another note this garage does dwarf my house, But it also fits in the area and makes the house look better. The garage under the bonus room has a 15 foot ceiling plus the 12-14 foot high trusses, so the peak of the garage is higher than the associated house.

Ian

[Thomas Bank]

Thomas,
That sounds like the size garage I will end up with. Same question to you, what was the truss/rafter system to get the ceiling height. Scissor trusses? I would appreciate any pics you could offer but don't go to too much trouble. Thanks in advance.

The roof is stick built out of 2x8s. I did bolt and gusset the rafter to ceiling joist connections. The first floor footprint is basically 24'x38' and the framing for the second floor is 2x10s spanning along the 38' length sitting on three steel beams and the end walls. The steel beams span across the 24' distance so that there are no internal columns. The beams also allow for a bridge crane for the downstairs workshop.

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan,
The hoist is a great idea. I like that it swings in side when not in use. You're shop/garage design is similar to what I had in mind as well and it looks like you have plenty of head room on the second floor. That leads to the next question and that is what type of truss/rafter system did you use for that ceiling height?
The shop and garage are 38' X 25' (21'6" to shop kneewalls). It has a microlam ridge beam, but there are short ceiling joists/collar ties too so it is not a full cathedral ceiling. The front of the shop has 5' knee walls between the dormers with storage behind them. A sloped ceiling follows the front roof line up to a 10' high, 7' wide flat ceiling- there is only a small triangular space between the ridge beam and the ceiling joists. The ceiling follows the shallow sloped roof to an 8' high rear wall.


What did you use for the floor framing to support the equipment?
There are 18"(?) tall single (doubled?) microlams running front to back between the garage bays and 2X10 floor joists, 16" OC , running between them over each bay. The builder didn't think 12" OC was necessary. The garage ceiling is 9'6" which leaves plenty of headroom for my DC ductwork. You can see pics of my shop here. (http://www.woodcentral.com/contests/shopideas/)

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P1010091a1.JPG


BTW I have relatives in Wilmington N.C. so I know the Carolina coastal cottage design you mention. Thanks for the pics Alan, you have a beautiful property there.

Thanks. Actually I borrowed heavily from two designs by noted designer William Poole who is based out of Wilmington- mine is a synthesis of his Carolina Coastal and Edisto River Cottage designs.

[Steven Green]

I'm in the position of building a shop on a second floor. I love your lift. What kind is it and where did you get it?

[Alan Schaffter]

I'm in the position of building a shop on a second floor. I love your lift. What kind is it and where did you get it?

Folding beam design is my own, local welder fabricated it, and the hoist is an Ebay special.

[Jim Andrew]

Have you considered building a gambrel roof? That is the type that has a lower 24/12 pitch, up to ceiling height, and a 4/12 pitch on the top, like the barns of yesteryears farms. You lose 4' on each side, and you can add dormers if you want windows on the front. When you build the building, put a beam longways down the center, and put posts between the cars, and you can support a second floor easily.

[Alan Schaffter]

When you build the building, put a beam longways down the center, and put posts between the cars, and you can support a second floor easily.

That is what my plan called for, but my builder wisely ran the beams front to back between the bays. Since the garage is only 25' deep micro lams worked out quite nicely and there is no need for posts- I and car doors hate posts!! :( :(

[Jim Andrew]

The city where I had my building business started requiring microlam beams, and I was amazed when using them how much they sagged. The things are plywood, and have layers of grain going both ways, so makes sense that they are not as strong as they look. Wonder if there are charts so you can determine what size steel I beams you could use in buildings? No charts were available 10 years ago, but my experience tells me that a small I beam would be stronger than micro lams.

[Alan Schaffter]

The city where I had my building business started requiring microlam beams, and I was amazed when using them how much they sagged. The things are plywood, and have layers of grain going both ways, so makes sense that they are not as strong as they look. Wonder if there are charts so you can determine what size steel I beams you could use in buildings? No charts were available 10 years ago, but my experience tells me that a small I beam would be stronger than micro lams.

Don't confuse sag with flex. Microlams really don't sag much and being an engineered product are much stronger and more dimensionally stable than dimensional lumber. They will flex however, but are so strong per length that they flex much more then dimensional lumber without breaking. Microlams are not appropriate in all situations and the flex can be objectionable. There are many different types of microlam with different properties, too. Some are like little I-beams while some are solid- I believe per unit weight a microlam is stronger than a steel I-beam.

Charts and online calculators are available for all that stuff.

[Kurt Cady]

Don't confuse sag with flex. Microlams really don't sag much and being an engineered product are much stronger and more dimensionally stable than dimensional lumber. They will flex however, but are so strong per length that they flex much more then dimensional lumber without breaking. Microlams are not appropriate in all situations and the flex can be objectionable. There are many different types of microlam with different properties, too. Some are like little I-beams while some are solid- I believe per unit weight a microlam is stronger than a steel I-beam.

Charts and online calculators are available for all that stuff.

There is so much wrong with everything you just stated I don't even know where to begin. Yes, they are stronger and more stable than dimensional lumber. That's about it that's correct from above

[Peter Aeschliman]

...here we go...

[Alan Schaffter]

There is so much wrong with everything you just stated I don't even know where to begin. Yes, they are stronger and more stable than dimensional lumber. That's about it that's correct from above

Then why don't you enlighten us. Don't forget the footnotes. Since it wasn't stated initially, don't forget to state whether a microlam "sags" or "sags under load" more properly called deflection.

[Kurt Cady]

Then why don't you enlighten us. Don't forget the footnotes. Since it wasn't stated initially, don't forget to state whether a microlam "sags" or "sags under load" more properly called deflection.

I'd love to, but you apparently know it all already. Nor do I feel like a public forum is a place for a structural engineer to hand out design advice or debate the topic with a know it all

[Randy Rizzo]

Hi guys,
I recently moved to rancher house. It doesn't have a garage or any work space and I want to build a three car garage with a work shop possibly on the second floor. I want to maintain 1st floor for cars. The garage will be inset into the side of a a six foot embankment making the access to second floor only a few steps up in the rear of the structure. The problem is I don't want to dwarf the house with a large two story building. Does anyone have a garage with a second floor shop using a saltbox style roof. I was thinking the long section of roof would be in the front giving the appearance of single story. Would this work? Any advice or concerns would be appreciated.

I did something very similar to what you are contemplating. The shop is on the 2nd floor, access by stairs from the lower garage bay or double doors on the upper level. I put a deck out front and I can back the pickup right up to the deck to unload heavy items. The stairs are a mixed bag of pros and cons. I lose storage downstairs, though here is a closet under the staircase, and I lose space up stairs occupied by the stairwell. The upside, I don't have to walk around to the front of the building through 4 feet of Upper Michigan snow during the winter! Overall I'm pleased with the way it's worked out. 228782

[Alan Schaffter]

I'd love to, but you apparently know it all already. Nor do I feel like a public forum is a place for a structural engineer to hand out design advice or debate the topic with a know it all

I wasn't giving out specific "design advice" and no one asked you to. But microlams, glulams, LVL's, etc. are a viable alternative to steel for OP's situation.

I and others might benefit from your wisdom and knowing where I was wrong.

As to my statements-

You agree microlams are stronger and more stable than dimensional lumber.

You can't disagree that there are "many charts and online calculators"- a quick Google search will quickly support that. I didn't and would never recommend a layman attempt to use them to design a house, however. Many building codes do not recognize them yet, while others will accept the design from the manufacturer, but often require a structural engineer sign off on it.

Do you disagree, that "They will flex however, but are so strong per length that they flex much more then dimensional lumber without breaking." ? If you look at any of the substitution tables in this Engineered Wood Systems reference. (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&sqi=2&ved=0CH4QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rosboro.com%2Fpdfs%2FEWS-S570-F.pdf&ei=U3B-T7vLBcTq2AWymunrBg&usg=AFQjCNF6QQaqgtj_JnLHOXKUweHRcGrxxQ&sig2=k3XFQvoJPIgHH7ZSb4cQgQ) you will see for a given deflection the replacement Glulam shear strength is in some cases almost doubled and bending strength almost 1.5 times the replaced Doug Fir lumber beam. You can theoretically reduce the size of the microlam, still have enough strength, but have greater deflection- note it says "deflection."

Of course it depends on what you compare to what- just like a 2X10 will support more than a 2X8. But since they are engineered and do not have all the fibers running in only one direction like dimensional lumber, microlams are stronger per unit weight.

Stiffness or resistance to failure are design issues as I just said. In addition to style (solid or I-beam shape), the thickness and height of shear web are major factors. To quote just one of the many sites like Georgia Pacific, microlams have:
"High design values for bending, stiffness and shear strength
High strength-to-weight ratio - more than 50% stronger than solid sawn products"

Do you disagree with "Microlams are not appropriate in all situations and the flex can be objectionable. There are many different types of microlam with different properties, too"? All sources support that, what is the basis for saying that is incorrect?

How about, "Some are like little I-beams while some are solid"? Again, a quick Google supports that.

As to "I believe per unit weight a microlam is stronger than a steel I-beam. You can't disagree with what I believe, but to quote just one of many sources (http://www.ultratecllc.com/Glulam%20and%20Microllam%20LVL%20Beams.htm): "Glulam and Microllam LVL Beams are a laminated timber that has been re- engineered to be stronger and more versatile than traditional wood products. Pound for pound it is stronger than steel so it can span long distances with minimal need for intermediate supports."

So that just leaves us with "sag." Again, I refer to the tables. You can design a microlam that will support a given load with no problem, but may have objectionable flex. I lived in a house like that- the living room floor was strong, but flexed like a trampoline.

So again, what was so wrong with what I said previously? You can tell us without committing a crime.

[Jim Andrew]

The reason I posted the possiblity of using steel beams vs microlam beams, is that I have seen very small steel beams replace very large wooden beams, and seem to be straighter. When we would put up a microlam, sometimes 2 or 3 layers to get the size of beam we needed, the microlam would droop maybe 1/2" before we even put the load on it. Didn't drop a whole lot more with the load. And when we used long microlams for hip rafters, when you couldn't buy a board long enough, we had to brace them up in the middle. And amazingly, wasn't hard to put a good crown in them.

[Alan Schaffter]

The reason I posted the possibility of using steel beams vs microlam beams, is that I have seen very small steel beams replace very large wooden beams, and seem to be straighter. When we would put up a microlam, sometimes 2 or 3 layers to get the size of beam we needed, the microlam would droop maybe 1/2" before we even put the load on it. Didn't drop a whole lot more with the load. And when we used long microlams for hip rafters, when you couldn't buy a board long enough, we had to brace them up in the middle. And amazingly, wasn't hard to put a good crown in them.

Jim, I understand and don't doubt that is true, but even steel will droop (deflect :D ) a little. But, microlams can be engineered to limit that. They can be designed like a pre-stressed concrete bridge beam- with a certain amount of crown built in, so that under normal static load they will sit flat. Most homeowners and builders wouldn't be able to do the required engineering, but a microlam engineer can. Similarly, though technically strong enough, not all microlams are appropriate for all situations like your hip rafters. It is easy for a builder to get a generic one from the building supply house, but it may not be engineered for their specific application. Another issue that was not a problem for me gets back to the height of shear web. A microlam may be lighter for a given strength, stiffness, and span, but it may be too tall for the location. In my garage photo- the microlams are obviously much taller than the floor joists between them. Unless you can accept a boxed beam that extends down like that, it certainly wouldn't be appropriate for a living space.

Finally, price- there may be applications where a steel I-beam might actually be cheaper.

I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest, but wanted to make sure the correct info was out there.

[Jim Andrew]

Microlams are about the only thing you can buy to use for a long hip rafter, otherwise you have to splice 2 pieces of lumber. And the inspectors don't have any problem with you using them.