Looking at buying my first japanese/tawainese/etc. style plane...need some advise.

[Tony Shea]

Not sure what the exact origins are of all the planes I'm interested in buying so excuse my lack of knowledge in my title. But I'm looking to buy some sort of japanese style plane just because I'm interested in giving them a shot against my bench planes. I am specifically interested in a high angle smoother/polisher to help with some of the wild grained woods I currently have to work with. But this isn't an absolute must.

And my choice to go this route is due to my interest in some of things said about Mujingfang planes. Therefore I was looking at pulling the trigger on the larger high angle smoother LV used to sell. But I can't seem to find it anymore. So I've moved over to Japan Woodworkers site and have been eyeballing their selection. I have been looking at the 9" high angle polishing plane (Mujingfang) with 1 3/4" HSS blade. What are others opinions about this choice or should I be looking at a different size, make, or model? I'm very new to japanese style planes so bear with me. And if there are other higher end makes out there that are highly reccomended I'd like to hear about them.

[Tim Put]

You have to look under smoothing planes, not under wooden planes.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=50251&cat=1,41182,41187&ap=1

[Stuart Tierney]

I think what you're looking at are Taiwanese and Hong Kong style planes, not Japanese. Yes, there's a big difference in how they're made and how they get their job done.

I've used both styles more than I like to admit, and either one will work just fine. Just for reference, the 'mainland' planes tend to have Western-esque blades in ebony or rosewood type bodies and use a wedge to hold the blade in the body. Typically very steep angle bedding, so they work on pretty much everything without too much trouble, but what they do to wood can usually be improved on, finish wise and require some effort to push through the wood. Just the nature of the beast, not a fault.

Japanese planes use a wedge shaped blade that wedges into the most often oak body, the blade is laminated and most often set into the body at a shallow angle, typically 40-50 degrees. A few other details here and there, but they also work on pretty much anything without too much trouble, but a lot of effort has been made to make them less tiring to use while pulling. They do need some finesse, but usually they are also pretty much bombproof, contrary to popular belief.

I find the key difference is that the Mainland planes tend to be designed to always work, and pretty much idiot proof. They sacrifice performance for just plain working no matter what. Japanese planes need a little more attention, but in use are nearly untouchable for what finish they leave and ease of actual use.

If you think of the Mainland planes being a Clydesdale and the Japanese planes more like a thoroughbred, I think it's a fair simile. Both will get you to the next village, but how they take you there is vastly different, even though both take in hay at one end and dump fertiliser out the other. ;)

(An old Stanley is probably a bicycle, an LN a very new bicycle, a newly minted infill a motor cycle of varying performance relative to their cost of admission.)

Good luck on your search.


Now if you will excuse me, I need to keep working on making about 300 different kanna magically appear on my store's virtual shelves...

[Dale Osowski]

I think a great entry level Japanese plane would be an Ishihisa 45deg 70mm from Hida Tool, $242.80 I'm not really a fan of Japan Woodworker so I'm not sure what they are carrying now days. Another nice entry level is : http://japantool-iida.com/plane_smoothing/2008/05/tonchinkan-by-ishido.html

[David Weaver]

I don't think i'd give $250 for an intermediate plane made out of white steel #2. I can't think that the virtues go far beyond easy to sharpen. not trying to assail anyone who likes the plane, but white steel #2 is not durable and it wears fast (these are relative terms for people who haven't used japanese planes, it's still plenty durable to use, but there are inexpensive planes that will stay sharp twice as long and be tougher than white #2). I would have no qualms, though, about the ISHIDO plane for $250, i think that's a very good price.

I am also not a fan of japan woodworker, but I think the best plane for the money originating from the US is probably the yamamoto plane that JWW keeps raising the price on. It was a great deal when it was about $200. It's still a good deal at $240, and they have a steeper narrower plane at 47 1/2 degrees, I think for a few bucks more. It has a type of steel (both tsune and yamamoto call it special cutting) that is only in more expensive planes from other makers, and it's laminated to pleasing wrought iron, and it sharpens fine on any artificial stone and well on some natural stones. As long as they (JWW) keep increasing the amount of chinese junk in their catalog and selling knock-off tools, I just can't patronize them. Their markup is large - it is what it is, there are no good places to buy a full range of japanese planes in the US.

I was hoping to find that a dealer that I had gotten two from in japan would be receptive to making them easier to get, but he's failed. An example of why I'd have gone to him instead of JWW is that after some currency adjustment, it'd probably be $200 for a yamamoto plane, the dai is nimura signed (better than JWW) and no charge for a higher angle dai. JWW charges about $265 or something for the same plane without the nimura dai (which would make their compare price probably more like $300).

I would probably buy that plane, though, and one funjii plane (to try everything on first and then keep to set up as a rougher plane).

I like hida OK, but their selection of planes just stinks.

Stu will have planes soon and the ability to choose dai angle, but you'll have to wait until they're up to see the price. I snuck a look when he was testing something (you can't keep people out by taking down the front page when we have others bookmarked!!), and from what I could tell, I'd say a reasonable bet is looking at the tsune page and figuring that with shipping, they'll be in the ballpark of about $1 per 100 yen of the tsune retail list.

I'm sure there will be blue steel #1 and kamaji for the same or less than hida's white #2 plane. I don't want to knock hida too much, i've always gotten good service from them, i'm just disappointed in their lack of plain jane japanese carpenter's quality planes with better steel than white #2. I would've spent considerably more money with them if they had such a thing.

Again, I don't want to be contentious about anything, I just think there are so many marginal and bad deals out there for us because we can't easily shop in japan unless someone wants to make things avialable for us to read in english, and so far that makes Stu and Tomohito Iida, and So when he catches up (though he's in australia).

[David Weaver]

Almost forgot about the muji 63º.

I think it's a great plane. You want to be able to do two things with it, though:
1) you need to be able to bring HSS to a good edge to get it to leave a nice surface. It doesn't matter how you do this, but some stones will leave you feeling like it can't be sharpened
2) you need to have the surface leveled before you get to it. You definitely don't want to try to remove a lot of wood with it - pushing a 63 degree plane with anything other than a light shaving is like pushing a bulldozer around.

I had the 2" version of the same plane until I finally got off my duff and built an infill plane to replace it. It really was almost impossible to do any serious tearout damage to wood with it. The angle is so high and the mouth is tight, if you try to take a heavy shaving so heavy that you'd get in trouble, you literally won't be able to plane with it, which keeps you out of trouble.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Tony,

I have a once used 6" 63* mujingfang that I can let you try. If you like it then we can talk later. PM me if you are interested.

[Stuart Tierney]

I just wish I could get them out there at a better price than I'm going to. But alas, I'm dealing with today's exchange rates, not 2 years ago. :(

I tried really hard to get a Blue #1, closed mouth under US$200, and I just couldn't manage it. I could have, but it would have been counter productive ultimately as it would have been ugly elsewhere to compensate. As it is, I just know I'm either going to get a shake of the head or an attaboy on what I've done. Oh well, lets hope it's an attaboy.


Back to work...

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Not to put any pressure on you or create expectations, but looking at tsune's price list, I'm thinking you'll be able to come up with BS/kamaji in the price range of the white #2 plane from hida.

If you can't, you can send me nasty emails for putting you on the spot..

I always intended to get a blue steel #1 plane after the first funjii plane that I got (which is probably yellow steel or something) but every time I see a deal, I am always on one side of BS #1 (inukubi or cutting steel) or another (white steel and swedish steel).

I like the blue steel in some miyanaga chisels that I have. They are tough and not hard to sharpen on artificial stones.

[Stuart Tierney]

Actually, yeah, that's about it. But not tsutsumi, regular open mouth. Still Blue #1, still Kamaji.

But adjust the bedding angle, well, I'm only going to be asking $20 for that little tweak. A bit more if you need to really crank it up. ;)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

You should give an award to the first person who orders an angle over 70. Like a dunce cap award.

No big deal on the open mouth - better for people buying that range of planes, anyway, or they'll learn the hard way like I did that sometimes the ledge gets in the way if it is fit tight and you aren't really wary about the primary bevel steepness. Ten more minutes of stupidity on my part and I would've removed too much from the bed of the plane fitting the iron when the contact point impeding the iron was the ledge. I'm sure that's been done, but fortunately not by me - just almost.

[David Weaver]

I just noticed that it appears that someone is selling the ishido plane (or it appears to be) that dale referred to on ebay for $425. It has a signed dai, I guess, but it is still a good lesson.

Buyer beware, i'd say!

Tomohito-iida is not a low-cost provider, he's a fair price high-service provider (there is nothing negative about that combination, he has a nice selection and his prices are fine compared to what we can get over here).

If tomohito has it for $290 with shipping, imagine how you'd feel if you committed to buying the one on ebay and then learned that.

Always important to know what you're getting.

[Dale Osowski]

The Ishido really has gone up in price, I purchased my 80mm from Kayoko at Misugi Designs about 4 years ago for $200, maybe even a bit under if I recall correctly.

[David Weaver]

I know Misugi disappeared, i got interested in japanese planes just a tad too late to get anything from them. Their ohira stone stock went to hida (i bought one, and now someone else here has it). Did the rest of their stuff get liquidated?

The exchange rate now is about 15% worse than it was when I ordered my first planes from japan (the yamamotos). I could be wrong that they'd still be around $200 from the contact I had, they might be a few bucks more, but that would still be my best estimate, and probably in line since iida sells (for $150 or so plus shipping) a 60mm in blue #1 version of the special cutting steel 70mm plane that I'd gotten.

What do you think of the ishido plane versus others that you have? Even at $250 plus shipping, it's still a very affordable plane.

[Dale Osowski]

I think I got the last 6 60mm planes and 6 Mitsukawa rip dozuki Kayoko had, I used them for teaching students here. I really like the Ishido, they are work horses, hold an edge and sharpen well. I'm a bit interested in a couple of the Michio Tasai planes Tomohito has, we'll see how this year is for budget.

[Stuart Tierney]

You can tell me how I'm doing now if you want. Some stuff is up and running, permanent like...

Stu, looking to give the folks at Tsunesaburo heart failure. ;)

[David Weaver]

I saw it. Looks like my guess was pretty good.

Reigou planes are blank!

[Stuart Tierney]

Patience my dear. And take your heart pills first, they still aren't cheap. :(

[David Weaver]

I need the joe isuzu deal on them.

"just $6 dollars....would I lie?"

[Tony Shea]

Wow, that's a lot of names/maker's of planes thrown out there that really is beyond my knowledge. Really, where does one start to understand what a good brand of japanese plane is? And Stuart, I'd be interested in checking out what you have available but don't know where to look for your site. Just a bit overwhelmed with japanese plane information but certainly sounds intriguing. David or Stuart, what about Japanese planes interests you so much when compared to standard Stanley style bench planes? I suppose I will need to do a bit more studying to understand all this terminology, any good sources would be great. THanks for the suggestions.

[David Weaver]

It was novelty for me at first, but now more than just smoothing stuff and trying to get a shiny surface.

I mix and match like stanley says (western and japanese planes). It makes it so that someone who sits behind a desk can work a lot longer planing rough material, going back and forth between pushing and pulling.

A good plane to start with is probably a smoother, I initially preferred the 65mm size smoothers, and at an angle somewhere near a western bench plane. Blue steel and old wrought iron (referred to as kamaji) is probably a good place to go for a first plane for two reasons:
1) blue steel is easier for manufacturers to get right consistently, and a little tougher than most white steel - you're likely to get a good plane in a lower price range. Good white steel planes cost money.
2) old wrought iron makes the plane easier to sharpen than mild steel backing. Maybe there is some soft post-wrought iron that is good to sharpen, but of the planes I have, the wrought comes off easier leaving more sharpening effort on the hard edge - better results.

If you absolutely don't know if you want to spend the money on japanese planes, a funjii plane from JWW is probably a good place to start. They're cheap, easy to sharpen, and they have most of the elements of a japanese plane, and if you ruin your first one preparing, no big deal. they also require a little more blade prep, so good practice.

[Dale Osowski]

These videos will help you understand the reasons I use Japanese planes.

First video you see master dai maker Inomoto-san
http://www.shizutanischool.org/videos/Contest.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28zgQS1eXfg&feature=related

[Tony Shea]

That is one cool plane Dale and looks to give amazing results. Most the videos I've seen of these planes show the shavings coming out so effortlessly. These videos and stories is what has attracted to me to maybe give one of these a shot over my LN bench planes.

[Dale Osowski]

Here is a quick video I made, friend wanted to know how well Japanese planes worked on hardwood. Blade is set heavy for sound but still easy to pull, wood is black walnut:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=178406675504869

[David Weaver]

Dale, facebook privacy settings keep us from seeing that.

Btw...who is the big guy in the second video (the one running the large smoother?). I've seen him in a bunch of kezurou-kai videos but have no idea who he is.

[Dale Osowski]

I changed settings, hopefully it works:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=178406675504869

Walnut is 2" blade is bedded at 45deg, produces mirror like surface on hardwoods.

[David Weaver]

I like them for a reason opposite of what dale's posted. I like them because you can pull a thick hardwood shaving with a lightweight plane.

I do like how they work for smoothing, too, but I have a lot of other planes that really do that well.

I can pull a flatter thicker shaving with a japanese plane for intermediate work, which leaves little work for the smoothers and gives me some wiggle room with boards that I might need to thickness sparingly later.

[Dale Osowski]

Dale, facebook privacy settings keep us from seeing that.

Btw...who is the big guy in the second video (the one running the large smoother?). I've seen him in a bunch of kezurou-kai videos but have no idea who he is.

I'm not sure. I'll see if I can find out something.

[Pam Niedermayer]

These videos will help you understand the reasons I use Japanese planes.

First video you see master dai maker Inomoto-san

Thanks for the video; but it's not Inomoto-san, this guy has all his fingers. I guess it might be his brother?

Pam

[Dale Osowski]

The video features Isao if I'm not mistaken, he his older than Ko I believe.

[Dale Osowski]

Here is Isao, missing fingers seen, both videos show missing fingers actually. I don't think Ko comes to the US, he did however make the dai for my 120mm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdHeYUP27FY