Are there any good American made big iron?

[dirk martin]

These threads are just full of discussions on whether to go with European made saws, or saws from Taiwan, or whatever.

Look at all the big iron you and me and everyone else has in their shops. Heck, if 1/2 that stuff was made in the good 'ol USA, we'd be 1/2 way out of our ressession. Just ticks me off that America just can't seem to make much of anything right.

So, are there any good American made Lathe's, Tablesaws, bandsaws, or planers?

[scott vroom]

Heck, if 1/2 that stuff was made in the good 'ol USA, we'd be 1/2 way out of our ressession. Just ticks me off that America just can't seem to make much of anything right.


You can say that about MANY products. Your house is full of products no longer manufactured in the United States. At the top of that list are televisions and cell phones. Political discussions are not allowed here so I won't comment further....but I think we all know the reason. It's complicated.

Let me ask you this: if you could buy a television made in Asia for five hundred dollars or a comparable quality TV made in the US for $1,000 which would you buy? Be honest.

[James Boster]

Yes but not in the home shop price range. You can still buy Northfield, Tannawitz,State,Central Machinery(used to be Wysong Miles). Most any machine from this manufactures will run into 4 or 5 digits, but they are made here. If you want to go rebuilt you can still get some of the old Olivers rebuilt by Eagle Machinery who owns the rights to the old Oliver stuff.



On a differnet note I seen on the evening news the other night that if every american would spend a very small amount ( it was less than a dollar a day) to buy American it would create over 200,000 jobs in a year.

[dirk martin]

You can say that about MANY products. Your house is full of products no longer manufactured in the United States. At the top of that list are televisions and cell phones. Political discussions are not allowed here so I won't comment further....but I think we all know the reason. It's complicated.

Let me ask you this: if you could buy a television made in Asia for five hundred dollars or a comparable quality TV made in the US for $1,000 which would you buy? Be honest.


Sure, I'll be honest. I'd buy Asian.
We American's are just too fat and over paid.
I'm way over paid at my job. We need an adjustment back to reality.

Whatever...yes, we can't get political here...so it looks like when it comes to buying hardware for my shop, I'm pretty much left with going foreign.

[Cary Falk]

I just find it funny that nobody cries "buy American" when sombody want to buy some Euro machine like a bandsaw or slider. They come out of the woodwork when sombody mentions Asian manchinery.

[Rick Thom]

General equipment is made in Quebec, Canada. Their General International equipment is off-shore stuff. http://www.general.ca/index_en.html

[Kent A Bathurst]

See if you can raise Chip Lindley. He's pretty knowledgeable on USA Big Iron - not the new stuff, AFAIK, but the golden-age "can't kill it" gear.

[Myk Rian]

I buy the old stuff and restore it. Anything new these days is just plain cheap, no matter where it's made.

[Rod Sheridan]

I just find it funny that nobody cries "buy American" when sombody want to buy some Euro machine like a bandsaw or slider. They come out of the woodwork when sombody mentions Asian manchinery.

Hi Cary, that's true however I have three comments on that;

1) Most of the Euro machinery isn't available from a North American producer.

2) Most of my shop equipment was made in North America (General), and I replaced 4 pieces with 2 pieces of Hammer equipment that gave me more capability, capacity and shop space.

3) The Euro equipment is made in countries with good environmental practices which can also be a sales feature.

Regards, Rod.

[Frank Drew]

We American's are just too fat and over paid.


Well, I'm not the slim, trim demi-god I'd like to be, but I'm sure not overpaid. Grossly underpaid for what I do is more like it.

[Salvatore Buscemi]

I buy the old stuff and restore it. Anything new these days is just plain cheap, no matter where it's made.

Are you saying the new stuff made by Northfield and Tannewitz is cheap, or cheaply made?

Sal

[Doug Colombo]

The Delta Unisaw is made here in the US and is a great piece of equipment !!

[Neil Brooks]

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html

[Ryan Hellmer]

I have gone on a mission of replacing all my machines with american made. I have gone the "buy old and restore" route. Actually, most of my machines haven't needed restoration. I do have at least one euro machine, but I view western europe (and Canada) in about the same light at US Made. My beef is the exploitation of workers and currency. No one can say German workers are mistreated (well, any worse than Americans). There are some great resources out there including the OWWM group online. The American market long ago went almost exclusively to producing production type equipment, so plan on it being bigger and heavier. I have a 16" jointer, 18" planer 2-10" and 2-12" tablesaws, 16" radial arm saw plus others. All of it is about twice my age and all of it will outlast me by 2 times.

I do have to say though, that my pursuit of American made machines is doing absolutely nothing for the economy. I'm buying used for a fraction of the retail prices of even Aisian made equivalents. I also try to buy American whenever possible. We have noone to blame but ourselves.

Ryan

[Ken Fitzgerald]

A little friendly reminder.


Political comments and discussions violate the TOSs and will not be allowed.

[Brian Kent]

I was surprised to hear that it was only this year that USA became the number 2 exporter in the world (instead of #1).

[Myk Rian]

Are you saying the new stuff made by Northfield and Tannewitz is cheap, or cheaply made?

Sal
No, but I'm not going to pay thousands to outfit my garage shop. I can do it just as well with the old stuff.

[J.R. Rutter]

We American's are just too fat and over paid.
I'm way over paid at my job.

lol - just start a woodworking business and you will be all set!

[Salvatore Buscemi]

No, but I'm not going to pay thousands to outfit my garage shop. I can do it just as well with the old stuff.

Me too, I've got old tools (Oliver) that I never would have been able to buy new.

The OP's question was "Are there any good American made big iron?" and you said "Anything new these days is just plain cheap, no matter where it's made." There is still good American made big iron being made in this country.

[Brad Shipton]

Dirk, I agree with you partly. I don't think it is so much that NA companies can't, they choose not too for fear of lagging sales numbers. The primary focus is selling units, not profit margins on each unit. Do you think Martin sells a lot of their $70k saws each year? Probably not, but darn it, they know they sell the best darn saw on the market. I don't know of a lot of NA companies with that kind of attitude. I will not fault any company for outsourcing overseas, but I do have a serious problem when they lack in quality control or designs that focus more on cost. When the first discussion for a new tool or machine is the price point, I have a problem. That proves to me you care only about selling units and not giving me a good device to use.

Brad

[Steve Ryan]

Northfield new machine prices will make your head hurt.
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist-NMB.pdf

[Salvatore Buscemi]

Northfield new machine prices will make your head hurt.
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist-NMB.pdf

Yeah but, they make reeeeallly nice machines.This one was mine (50+ years old)
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac100/fishman76_2010/3856947a.jpg

[Paul Johnstone]

Let me ask you this: if you could buy a television made in Asia for five hundred dollars or a comparable quality TV made in the US for $1,000 which would you buy? Be honest.

This has already been proven. I remember when the first wave of imports was coming in the late 80's early 90's.. The Jet Jointer was $50 less than the US made Delta, and tons of people voted for imports with their $. The prices were something like 550 or 600. I remember tons of posts saying "The Delta might be better, but I'd rather save $50".

Making stuff in USA does not double the price..

[Jerome Hanby]

Sure, I'll be honest. I'd buy Asian.
We American's are just too fat and over paid.
I'm way over paid at my job. We need an adjustment back to reality.

Whatever...yes, we can't get political here...so it looks like when it comes to buying hardware for my shop, I'm pretty much left with going foreign.

I'm not overpaid for my job, but everyone I work with is:p

[Karl Brogger]

Northfield new machine prices will make your head hurt.
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist-NMB.pdf

Depends how you look at it.

I paid $3500 (I think), for a new Powermatic 27S shaper in 2007. Its falling apart. That's four years roughly.

A new Northfield Shaper is basically $10k. I don't think I'll have to complain about it falling apart.

[Paul Steiner]

1. I am surprised no one has said the original saw company. They still make awesome radial arm saws in the USA. I would say the best radial arm saws out there.
2. Last year I bought a delta drill press and bandsaw from lowes at a deep discount right before they changed to PC. They quality has been find thus far, but I feel like a traitor. In the past I have bought old machines and restored them. I plan to do that again.
3. I wonder how much manufacturing delta will have in the USA after their recent sale? The unisaw was marketed heavily on made in the USA. I think this approach would work other machines also, but the quality must be there and must be competitive on price.

[Rod Sheridan]

13. I wonder how much manufacturing delta will have in the USA after their recent sale? The unisaw was marketed heavily on made in the USA. I think this approach would work other machines also, but the quality must be there and must be competitive on price.

Paul, I would expect that any made in NA machine would be substantially more money than an import from the East.

I think the small number of General and Made in USA Delta stuff should give you an idea of how many people are willing to pay more for NA stuff.....Rod.

[Dave Lehnert]

Shopsmith MarkV, Bandsaw, jointer, planer,sander and other attachments are all made in Dayton Ohio.

[Paul Johnstone]

Paul, I would expect that any made in NA machine would be substantially more money than an import from the East.

I think the small number of General and Made in USA Delta stuff should give you an idea of how many people are willing to pay more for NA stuff.....Rod.

It may be more than a $50 difference today.. but there was a time when the import Jet 6" jointer only saved you $50.
My point is that people will not buy American, even if the cost difference is modest (roughly 10%). The funny thing was back then, the Delta was even considered better quality, at least in perception. I remember thinking back then that American tool manufacturing was doomed long term. I remember several threads like that on rec.woodworking.. and I specifically remember the $50 difference (although I do not remember the exact prices of each model)


They certainly aren't going to pay double for made in America.

Also, Vega is another qualitiy company that still makes lathes in America.

[Pat Barry]

This is now a global economy and we all better start thinking that way. I buy the best perceived value (quality and perfromance) I can afford with a new tool and could give a rats behind if its American, Chinese, Taiwanese, Japanese, Swedish, French, German, Russian or whatever. The point is they can build it over there, ship it over here and market it for less than USA product and it performs as good then why wouldn't you buy it. If you prefer to spend more for lower quality and performance and find that buying American makes you feel all warm and fuzzy then so be it - good for you. Is the American product better for the money? Yes or No - that should be the only question that matters.

[Larry Edgerton]

I'll agree with Pats statement above, except for the part about" I dont care where it came from." I have mostly Italian machinery, and I will always buy what is best for me as long as it fits two other qualifications.

Was it made in a free country that pays a living wage?

Was it made in a country that has enviromental standards that are similar to our own.

It si a shame that America, or rather a few executives of large corporations sold out the American public for short term gain at the expense of long term profitability. They should have developed new products in the vein of the Europeans, and dropped that old tech in the garbage. Sure the old iron is big and impressive, but the european stuff kicks it but in its best day. Its just better engineering

Someone brought up the Original saw company. Their stuff is just a remake of an outdated piece that was due for replacement anyway. I'll gladly put my OMGA up against an old Dewalt. Thats what I got rid of when I bought my OMGA. We need to be coming up with a better mousetrap, and at the same time put some teeth in our intellectual property laws. We won't because we are so far in debt to china, but we should......

[Greg Portland]

On a differnet note I seen on the evening news the other night that if every american would spend a very small amount ( it was less than a dollar a day) to buy American it would create over 200,000 jobs in a year.308 million people * $1 / 200,000 jobs = $1540 annual salary per job.

[Matt Winterowd]

Actually, that would be $1540 per day. I'd take that job.

[Rick Cicciarelli]

For a big machine...I would certainly be willing to pay $50-100 more for an American made quality machine over a China made machine. Unfortunately, I don't know of any good American made machines at this point.

[Pat Barry]

I'll amend my comment slightly - because I do care about American products. We have to find a way to change what Rick said, because that seems to be a very true and sad statement that applies to many types of American products these days.

[Gary Herrmann]

I'd pay 10-20% more for something made in the US without thinking twice.

I've got one piece of old US arn in the shop, 4 General machines and an Italian bandsaw. All great tools. Keeping my eyes open for a NA made DP and maybe a mortiser. The ones I have work just fine, but I'd love to replace all of my Chiwanese made tools with European or NA made, but that's just a personal thing. I'd love to find another used Baldor grinder too. All that being said, I have no complaints at all about my PM 3520b. Do I wish I had a Robust or Oneway lathe? Sure, but at the time they were at 2.5x the price and I have young kids. Someday, maybe.

Except for a few beater chisels, all of my hand tools are NA made. LN, LV or vintage US.

[Bobby O'Neal]

As I read, I find myself wondering why American? Is it to keep American dollars and American jobs rolling? If that's the case, buying used and restoring it doesn't do any good. You can only achieve that by purchasing new equipment and there doesn't seem to be a huge variety to choose from there. If you are wanting to own American made machinery just for the joyous patriotism of it, great. That being said, even purchasing imported items makes provision for American jobs. Somebody is handling it once it hits US soil. Just a thought.

[Chip Lindley]

...Look at all the big iron you and me and everyone else has in their shops. Heck, if 1/2 that stuff was made in the good 'ol USA, we'd be 1/2 way out of our ressession. Just ticks me off that America just can't seem to make much of anything right.

So, are there any good American made Lathe's, Tablesaws, bandsaws, or planers?


See if you can raise Chip Lindley. He's pretty knowledgeable on USA Big Iron - not the new stuff, AFAIK, but the golden-age "can't kill it" gear.


I have gone on a mission of replacing all my machines with american made. I have gone the "buy old and restore" route.
Ryan


I buy the old stuff and restore it. Anything new these days is just plain cheap, no matter where it's made.

Sure Dirk, there are woodworking machines still made in U.S.A. Emerson has produced radial and table saws for Sears for many many years, and now for Ridgid. But those are BORG-quality tools--not industrial quality.
There still are producers of serious, industrial-grade woodworking machinery in the U.S.--like Northfield (http://www.machinetoolsjwk.com/northfield%20Table%20Saws%20Planers.htm) , who still produces band saws, table saws, radial arm saws, shapers, jointers, and planers! HUGE, heavy industrial machines! Original Saw Company now produces the BIG DeWalt radial arm saws. Definately industrial quality. Woodmaster planers and drum sanders are made in U.S.A.

Some of us deem ourselves lucky to get industry's cast-offs at bargain prices. I have a old 1920's Northfield MD 12" jointer I decided to not just "give away on CL. I will keep it, refurbish it, and use it! My investment will be in time and sweat; relatively little money (unless I put a Shelix head on it) Same with other older U.S.-produced machines in my shop. A Moak industrial shaper's Class 7 bearings are over $500. I will settle for Class 5 brgs that are a step down in precision, BUT will work fine for me. I won't be running my Moak 8 hrs a day, 6 days a week!

Finding and refurbishing serious industrial ww'ing machinery headed for the scrap yard is a niche that fulfills the needs of many serious woodworkers. The quality is there, and in many cases can be renewed without taking out a 2nd mortgage. One new Northfield MD 12" jointer, at $10,970 FOB Northfield MN, is more than the worth of my whole shop--well, almost.

European woodworking machinery has always been noted primarily as very precision, well-made stuff. The designs are original, not knockoffs. I believe that is what causes a bad taste in my mouth concerning Asian machinery. All started out as stolen designs of proven American machines. If Taiwan or China had come up with their on unique stuff, I would have no argument.

But, alas, ChiWan machinery does serve it's purpose. Hobbyist woodworkers can acquire pretty decent machinery that in most cases, does what it is supposed to do. It is generic machinery with little or no personality or pedigree, but it does come with a warranty and customer service. We refurbishers of old machinery are on our own! Left up to our own devices and ingenuity.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'll put another vote for Northfield as being "good American iron". But as has been eluded to, Europeans are making Great iron. If you look at say a Northfield shaper made 40 years ago and one made today, can you tell the difference? I'm not knocking them, they make great stuff, it's just a different train of thought, if it ain't broke......!

Now look at a Martin shaper made 40 years ago versus one made today. Totally different machine reflecting a steady and constant process of improvement. I'm lucky enough to have several European machines in my shop. Italian, British, and a German is scheduled to arrive fairly soon. Mostly older machines and still running strong.

I guess my outlook is buy the best I can afford when opportunity presents itself. I won't get rid of my American made stuff, hey my Timesaver is a great old piece too. Nor will I completely shun Asian equipment, I have a tilting spindle that's a good performer. I just won't allow the shoddy junk in regardless of where it's being made.

good luck,
JeffD

[Steve Schoene]

Of course just to be clear, such a calculation isn't so straight forward. For example, NONE of the things that you would have bought with that dollar could have been produced using American labor. All products you can buy have some American contribution, even if nothing more than the transportation within the country. There are also multiplier effects (both up and down) in calculating the impacts of a $1 change in spending. It's a very, very complex calculation. Strangly, however, it can be shown, under a pretty wide range of assumptions, that total material welfare can be increased in a country that has free trade.

[Curt Harms]

I think it's funny that national media seems to have just become aware that the U.S. doesn't make much in the way of consumer goods anymore. Welcome to the last decade of the 20th century.....or perhaps the 1980s :rolleyes:. I could be wrong here but I think the european manufacturers are private corporations. I'm not sure there's enough profit in consumer/small shop woodworking machinery to satisfy Wall Street. Could a company be profitable? Sure. Profitable enough to satisfy fund managers or investment bankers? Probably not, and still be competitive.

[Bill Joslin]

This is a complicated but important subject. Larry Edgerton makes a good case regarding larger tools.

My shop has a mix. I definitely favor quality, and definitely shun cheap-and-poor quality. Better value and better performance.

I do check where things are made. If prices for comparable products are relatively close, I do buy the US-made item. And feel good doing so. Recently enjoyed buying Klein screwdrivers and Whiteside router bits, for example, both USA-made and excellent. The FWW review of parallel clamps caused me to re-think Bessey-only, and added Jorgy clamps (a) because they are at least comparable in quality and (b) made in USA. A bit cheaper was a fine bonus. Unfortunately, this seems to happen mostly with smaller items and smaller companies.

But -- a big but -- I get really annoyed by American companies (and here, think management, not workers) who continue with outdated design or let quality slide, essentially milking fixed investment -- and then cry about competition. Why did it take so very long for table saw makers to add riving knives, for example? Riving knives are simple, much safer, and don't intrude on work with the saw. Was it because they were a European innovation? And then there are the companies that ship production to the place with cheaper labor but don't cut the sales price, just pocketing the savings.

Is it because management of bigger companies is dominated by people trained in Finance and Marketing, and simply either (a) don't really care much about production or design innovation, (b) wouldn't know it if they saw it, or (c) only look for the easiest way to make a quick buck. Or all three, I guess.

I converted to Incra measuring tools because they are vastly more precise. An American innovation made in the USA. Likewise my Life is Good mallet, developed and made in the USA. It can be done here and should be, and we should expect it. In the meantime, I'll watch where things are manufactured and buy USA-made whenever I can get quality at relatively comparable price.

Yeah, this thread hit a nerve. Better head to the shop to relax.

[Larry Edgerton]

. Strangly, however, it can be shown, under a pretty wide range of assumptions, that total material welfare can be increased in a country that has free trade.

That is a very vague statement that does not take into account that a balance in value added products is also necessary for both trading partners to flourish. We had a big advantage in this for many years, but we are tipping the scales the other way. A service economy can not work in a country this large. We need the value added jobs that industry provides to create wealth, not just shuffle it around like a service economy does.

A stock broker for example does nothing to add to the value of our country, he mearly moves wealth from one point to another. The net gain is zero because someones gain is someone elses loss, minus his commission.

A man with a blue collar job that takes some raw material on the other hand and works it into a saleable product has created wealth, the difference between costs and the end sale price, and has not created a loss for anyone if all goes well. This is where we are falling down, and this can be directly related to the stock market and the loss of privately owned companys, something someone else touched on. Short sightedness on the part of money managers is driving the working man in this country into the dirt, and those in control do not care. couple this with laws lobbied for to aid the large corporations at the expense of small concerns, and it can not but end badly I am afraid.

[Bill Joslin]

Sorry, it is a Wood is Good mallet. Life is good when I'm in the shop.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I will remind everyone that political discussions and comments are not allowed as per the TOSs.

[Larry Edgerton]

Ahh, gee Ken, I was being very careful.............

Ok, I"ll shut up......

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Larry....I never said to shut up........:rolleyes:

It's difficult to discuss economics without getting political and without getting some folks really riled up.


It's a complex problem...it's not black or white ...it's shades of gray.....

Example....I was until February 1...a bottom of the food chain.....grunt.....but I have a lot of money tied up in stocks and bonds....... I've been investing for over 30 years.........but I was also in the service industry for one of the largest corporations in the world........who manufactures both in the US and overseas.....Japan...India.....China.....Taiwan... ..

[Steven Hsieh]

There is only one left manufacture that makes disc sanders that I know of.
For $6,000 for US made.
185106

http://www.burrking.com/catalog/p-100013/model-20-20-disc-grinder

[Michael MacDonald]

we have a lot of dooomsday scenarios about our economy and a lot is said about american-made vs. foreign. but in the long-term (longer than any of our lives), countries that participate in our global economy will even out economically. China has new salary pressures. You can't get the same offshoring rates in India for software development like you used to. Shipping will never be frictionless. As the standards of living in these countries approach USA standards, I think manufacturing will come back in the USA. Then the argument might legitimately be about where companies are HQ'd, but USA manufacturing will rebound. This is why I believe some of the most impactful issues are sarbanes, corporate taxes and the impact on core econominc building blocks like the NYSE. Unfortunately, there is a lot of pain to go through before we get there, and there seems to be a never-ending supply of third-world countries to pick up the slack (though untrue--it is finite). And of course, part of that pain here and now includes badly written instruction books for Harbor Freight tools and a Triton spindle sander with a badly ground cast iron top, not to mention the big problems of tax revenues, social security, unemployment. So I am optimistic long-term, that is, if we can stay above water and continue to innovate in this country (USA). And there IS innovation here--dare I say sawstop? (please don't focus on that, though.) But this optimism is so long-term, that it doesn't do us a darn bit of good or offer consolation for those experiencing the pain here and now.

so now. we have that goin' for us.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

You can say SawStop but it's Asian manufactured......I forget if it is made in Taiwan or China but it doesn't matter.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

How many hobbiests can afford Burrking....Northfield......Martin....Tannewitz?

The Asian manufactured tools fill a niche that US and Canadian made can't fill at that price point.......

I wouldn't have built my shop if I had to buy Northfield.....I couldn't justifty the expense for a hobby.......the contractor wouldn't have had work between major projects......his 2 carpenters wouldn't have been paid.....the local lumberyard wouldn't have sold him the materials ( I specified he had to buy his materials there in the bid. The "outside saleman" at that lumberyard recommended him).... So Asian made tools may have not helped the manufacturing side of the national economy but they did have a beneficial effect on my local economy....and Grizzly...and General (GI) are US and Canadian owned companies and I have tools by them and Oneida and Mini-Max and Ridgid and Delta and Jet.


It's far more complex than those who want to oversimplify would like to admit.

[Michael MacDonald]

You can say SawStop but it's Asian manufactured......I forget if it is made in Taiwan or China but it doesn't matter.

you are right... profit margin comes here (USA), but the labor and materials margin go there. Now if the economics of Taiwan or China made the manufacturing as expensive as here, the shipping cost of such a beast would probably entail that it were manufactured here... then USA gets the labor cash flows, and the materials margins would be here... all on top of the profit margin to the owner/innovator.

Flip side of this perspective is that now we would need to pay a PREMIUM to the asian products... so they would have to have some additional value proposition (higher quality, sexy branding, innovation) to be worth paying $50 more here...

you also say "it is far more complex..." in your next post. You got me there. Is true--there is not one thought-model that will explain it.

[Darin Kauffman]

I thought MiniMax USA was made here in the states? Also, if I had the shop for it, I would LOVE to have a Northfield Uni-point radial arm saw. It is way to rich for my pocketbook right now, but THAT is one hell of a nice saw. Wow!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Michael,

I repeat.....if I had to purchase tools at Northfield, Tannewitz and Martin prices...I wouldn't have built my shop and wouldn't be a hobbiest woodworker.

By the recent poll here, the hobbiests outnumber the "Pros" by a ratio of 5 to 1. Most hobbiests can't afford or couldn't justify buying the premium tools.

Among other reasons, companies moved manufacturing overseas primarily due to lower labor costs...lower taxes and fewer environmental laws to abide.....

While the manufacturing jobs and material supplier may not profit by my few Asian tool purchases, don't deny my contributions to my local economy and.....the company making profits helps my investments too.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Darin,

Mini-Max USA is made in Italy.....SCM if IIRC is what it says on my MM-16.

[Darin Kauffman]

Ahhhh, thanks Ken.

My next large tool purchase will be an Italian made band saw.....

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry....I never said to shut up........:rolleyes:

It's difficult to discuss economics without getting political and without getting some folks really riled up.


It's a complex problem...it's not black or white ...it's shades of gray.....

Example....I was until February 1...a bottom of the food chain.....grunt.....but I have a lot of money tied up in stocks and bonds....... I've been investing for over 30 years.........but I was also in the service industry for one of the largest corporations in the world........who manufactures both in the US and overseas.....Japan...India.....China.....Taiwan... ..

Ken

Your circumstance is irrelivent. So is mine and everyone elses. Don't mean this as an insult, so don't take it that way.

It is the balance between service jobs and manufacturing that has me worried. We just crossed over to the point that government is now the largest employment sector. No government job adds value to the whole. This is not sustainable, especially when you factor in all of the Wall Street paper shufflers that add no value to our society, many nothing more than parasites in reality.

All I am saying is that we, the general public, need to be better informed so we can make reasonable choices, and demand leadership that is responsible to American citizens first. That is a pipe dream I know, but one can hope.......

Ya, I know, I'm like a puppy with a chew toy......

[Michael MacDonald]

Michael,

I repeat.....if I had to purchase tools at Northfield, Tannewitz and Martin prices...I wouldn't have built my shop and wouldn't be a hobbiest woodworker.... Among other reasons, companies moved manufacturing overseas primarily due to lower labor costs...lower taxes and fewer environmental laws to abide.....

sure... I am in the same boat as you, I expect--I don't disagree. I am not exactly sure how this would play out in a economically balanced world... if economies (salaries, materials cost--the base that allows a product to be produced cheaply enough to more than offset shipping cost) of the world are all at the same level due to a common standard of living (more or less), would that necessarily hurt a hobbiest's ability to get a cheaper tool than a northfield or a martin? I don't know enough of those products because they are so far out of my reach, but I think the low/middle end product, which is currently produced offshore, would come back to US manufacturing. In fact, I think global companies would find it best to produce a product within trucking distance of the supply material and the customer. Hopefully it would be possible to buy a product--a product made at a living wage at USA standards--that isn't a Northfield but is at least a Rigid or a Delta, etc... I hope. The price might be a bit higher, but it would still be affordable in comparison to the high end tools.

In the meantime, the value network of a product is more complex than "where it was made" or "where the HQ of the compoany is"... so I don't want to minimize the positive impact on our economy of buying any tool--made in USA, Asia or Mars... I get slapped by the invisible hand just like Adam Smith did back in his day... and just like everyone else reading this. Gotta go with the economic flow.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe our standard of living means that any product produced at a USA living wage is going to be out of reach of a moderate USA salary. Probably this equation is impacted by productivity levels, which are ever-increasing due to technology in the US. So again, I hope it works out over time.

[Michael MacDonald]

It is the balance between service jobs and manufacturing that has me worried. We just crossed over to the point that government is now the largest employment sector. No government job adds value to the whole. This is not sustainable, especially when you factor in all of the Wall Street paper shufflers that add no value to our society, many nothing more than parasites in reality.

I agree on the gov't jobs point... not sure I agree on the wall st. slam... alot of that is not zero sum--it is moving capital where it can do the most efficient job of making more juice, so it is additive. (not real juice... I think you know what I mean)

OK... my head is starting to hurt... must extricate myself from this very interesting thread.

[Larry Edgerton]

I agree on the gov't jobs point... not sure I agree on the wall st. slam... alot of that is not zero sum--it is moving capital where it can do the most efficient job of making more juice, so it is additive. (not real juice... I think you know what I mean)

.

There is a slight possibility I may be a bit bitter after a fund I was invested in just disappeared.........

[Jeff Duncan]

Hmmm, I believe MM USA is essentially the local branch. I don't recall which country they're made in, but I'm pretty sure it's in the EU.

JeffD

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jeff,

Mini-MaxUSA is a division of SCM Industries rhat sells their products in the USA according to an email I got last week from Michael Kahn product manager for Mini-Max. My MM-16 has an SCM label about eye high on the outside of the upper door and proudly states it was made in Italy.

[Chip Lindley]

Leave the heaviest iron like Northfield out of the equasion. Step it down a notch! Few but commercially viable woodworking businesses could afford Delta or Powermatic when they were 100% Made In USA. Take a look at the ad below from FFW, in late 1984. This time frame coincided with the beginnings of Taiwan knockoff imports. Check out the price of a PM Model 60 8" jointer in the ad. Above this ad on the same page, Grizzly offered their almost identical 8" jointer for $575, FOB Bellingham.

185214

The common man in his garage was obliged to settle for Sears (Where America Shops) woodworking machines, quite inferior to the cast iron Deltas and Powermatics of the day. I could not afford a new Model 60! Could you?

I had a pretty decent job as a railroader making about $90 a day. I also had A new family to spend on! But, I had already learned my lesson, "trying" to use brand new '70s Sears TS and RAS to actually produce things of wood to decent tolerances.

When I discovered some old, used machinery at auction, a whole new world opened up to me. I could actually buy brand new Freeborn carbide cabinet cutters because I paid less than $200 for my PM #26 shaper. I learned how to put new bearings in motors and arbors, and I have lived pretty happily ever after!

That same shaper--NEW--was $1699 on sale back then. No Way I could afford that. Per inflation, the same shaper would cost $2622 by the end of 2010! The very affluent notwithstanding, commercial-grade American-made machinery was NEVER cheap enough for "just consumers" to buy. It was meant for an entirely different market--just as Northfield machinery is today!

Those high-dollar machines were purchased by educational shops with tax dollars, or are bought by business entities as a capital investment. Those capital investments are amortized over time. When their worth deteriorates to a point and can no longer be depreciated for tax purposes, they are usually liquidated and NEW machinery is acquired. (same as company fleet autos) The cycle begins anew. That is, unless the company goes belly up, or is lucky enough to survive to move abroad. Then, offen a company liquidates it's plant rather than move it all on a big boat!(That's where guys like ME come in!)

[Larry Edgerton]

Chip, you need to dump some messages...........

[Darin Kauffman]

Great points Chip! It's all relative.

[Michael MacDonald]

Chip is right--it is the exact perspective that I am hoping will not be true, though it was clearly true in his example from 30 years ago. (Awesome numbers Chip... you hit the point head-on.) Perhaps the optimistic theory rests on four questions:

1. has manufacturing productivity improved to allow the cheaper manufacturing of the equipment in the USA?
2. have materials costs dropped enough to also help reduce the cost of the final product?
3. was there any needless markup on those 1984 prices due to lack of competition and price pressure?
4. What other factors existed in the 1984 woodworking machinery market that might have impacted costs? (high marketing costs, demand too low to justify the capital investment, high R&D costs, quality higher than it needed to be for the market... ???)

The basic idea is that the average person is willing to spend one full days-worth of salary for a 6-inch jointer... not a months-worth of salary. So can a quality jointer product be manufactured in the USA with an investment level of materials and labor (albeit at a lower wage rate than the average person, perhaps, still an acceptable wage) for less than one full days-worth of labor. Clearly this was not the case back then. It is probably not the case now--evidenced by the OP who cannot easily find a quality, well-priced power tool wholly made in the USA for the average consumer market.

But will it be the case 100 or 200 years from now when the average Chinese houshold income is equal to that of the average USA household? And when other isolated economies level-set with the rest of the world? I hope so... because the level-setting is inevitable. THAT I firmly believe. One day we won't have a place to go for cheaper labor than that which we can ourselves provide.

And I was hoping to upgrade to an 8-inch jointer some day.

[Frank Kobilsek]

Yes there are American made Woodworking Machinery Manufacturers. This link takes you to thier trade association, check out the Product Guide.

http://www.wmma.org/

Wood Machinery manufacturers were destroyed by Personel Injury lawyers in the 1970's not politicians.

Frank

[Chris Mahmood]

Wood Machinery manufacturers were destroyed by Personel Injury lawyers in the 1970's not politicians.

Frank

How did European manufacturers avoid this?

[Kent A Bathurst]

How did European manufacturers avoid this?

They didn't, Chris - on sales in the USA. Nor did the Pacific Rim manufacturers - on sales in the USA.

The litigation structure, rules, environment are different country-to-country, culture-to-culture.

Say, perhaps, a world-leading manufacturer of automobiles had a product with an accelerator pedal that might get hung up on the floor mat - purely hypothetical, of course - pretty silly to think that would ever happen. The penalties and fines in the USA might get a bit pricey - and 2 tons @ 60 mph won't stop when they hit a hotdog.

My suspicion - only that, a suspicion - is that the USA domestic sales volume for hobbyist woodworking machinery far outstrips that in, say, central China, or the Balkans, or the Levant. So, the market is right here, and they gotta play by our rules to sell their goods right here.

If a company or an industry fails due to PI litigation, it is due the awards from twelve good men and true, as punishment for a poorly designed product. That's the simply law, not a political position on my part. You can look it up. I think it's gotten a bit out of hand, but the judges and juries haven't yet called to designate me as the supreme decider.

I've got a number of lawyers in the family, and I know all the lawyer jokes and rants - use 'em often, actually, in my emails to the family group. :D My Dad laughs, my siblings and in-laws don't - no sense of humor, apparently.

[Steve Schoene]

Larry, you have expressed a very classical view of value--fortunately economists have given up the labor theory of value of Smith, Marx and Ricardo, for much more useful marginal product analysis of production and consumer demand. Certainly services add value in the economy. That's what the Wealth of Nations was about--driving a stake into the heart of merchantalism, supporting free trade and free markets. But as a complete economic model the labor theory quickly breaks down, for Smith the same as for Marx.

All that is necessary for trade to add to a nations wealth is comparative advantages, not absolute advantage. But even the classical economists, at least Smith and Ricardo, understood the gains from trade. Consumer welfare has the potential to increase with trade because the benefits of price reductions on imported goods, in aggregate more than offset the losses from reduced income from production decreases where imports substitute for home manufacturers. Of course, the benefits aren't always shared from the winners to the losers, but the total is large enough that they could be with everyone coming out ahead. Why the transfers don't always happen is a political issue out of bounds here.

By the way, the value added by the stock broker is risk reduction and the facilitation of liquidity. The transfer of wealth isn't value added and doesn't show up as such in the national accounts. But the commission is, and pays for research and trading costs but commissions are a very small percentage of the transaction values. Having liquid markets with vigorous information flows makes investments much safer. That's not to say that the financial markets work perfectly, or at times even satisfactorily, but a major problem in the economy now is in our least liquid market--real estate, where information is sketchy making trading slow and inefficient.

[Frank Drew]

If a company or an industry fails due to PI litigation, it is due the awards from twelve good men and true, as punishment for a poorly designed product. A poorly designed product isn't necessary for a lawsuit, merely an injury. Most injuries on woodworking equipment, by far, are due to operator error, but lawsuits nonetheless can eat up a manufacturer's resources.

[David Hostetler]

You can say that about MANY products. Your house is full of products no longer manufactured in the United States. At the top of that list are televisions and cell phones. Political discussions are not allowed here so I won't comment further....but I think we all know the reason. It's complicated.

Let me ask you this: if you could buy a television made in Asia for five hundred dollars or a comparable quality TV made in the US for $1,000 which would you buy? Be honest.

The Asian made TV. I can't afford to spend twice the price to buy locally. I wish I could, but that isn't my financial reality. Go ahead blame me for not having enough money, I know it's all my fault anyway...

[Jim Matthews]

There are two perturbations to the calculation of free and fair trade;

High wage European industries have national healthcare schemes to defray health and wellness costs over the entire population, rather than as an element of cost per unit produced.
Low wage Asian countries have a large workforces than can afford housing and food at the wages paid. This can be accomplished by skewing the value of the local currency, such that it can buy local products while keeping exports too expensive to compete in the local market.

"Free markets" don't exist, and have been used as a justification to break the social contract.

I don't, for a minute, think that tariffs would result in more Americans working to produce products for domestic consumption.
It would (as happened with British Leyland) lead to a moribund product line, and higher profits to ownership - without providing for competition.

The only way free trade works is when all producers have equal access to all markets, and that's not about to happen.