wooden planes vs. qualiity metal planes: discuss!

[Brad Gobble]

Context: I'm moving to more and more hand tools with eyes towards furniture. My plane collection has 1 or 2 decent planes, some junk, and lacks any sense whatsoever. My day job pays OK so that, if planned, I could put up to $1k towards this in the next 6 mos (my "honey-do" list will grow proportionally).

So if one were to plan out purchasing a "set" of planes, would you
1. Save pennies, shop wisely, and buy LN stuff one at a time (Jack, smoother, shooting, LA block, rabbet)
2. Drink Hock's coolaide and build up a complete set of wooden planes
3. buy / repair / upgrade a set of Stanley's

from what I've seen the LN stuff just works from the get go, the woodies always require a tap-tap-fiddle-fiddle and the refurb route is a whole lot of time with the tormek and sandpaper. What I save in $ I lose in time, right? Anyone go one route and wish they'd gone the other?

[Zach Dillinger]

Brad,

I use wooden planes exclusively and I wouldn't trade my set to anyone for any modern plane. Sure, I spent a little time with each one, learning its quirks, tuning, sharpening, but the rewards are immense. I know exactly what my planes can and can't do. Plus, you can get a complete set of woodies for less than the cost of just one LN plane. The leftover money can be spent on whatever, maybe even some wood so you can build something with those fine tools. I prefer the feel a wooden plane offers, plus they are extremely lightweight, so I can plane for a long time without tiring. This may not be a concern if you use machines, but for a traditional woodworker, this is important. My favorite (non-working characteristic) thing about wood planes is that I really like using planes that are virtually identical to those planes that created the most beautiful furniture and homes ever built.

Just my two cents. Different strokes and all that.

Zach

[Chris Jackson]

My 2 cents:

I read a few of Krenov's books last year, and really enjoyed them.
This year I purchased David Finck's book Making and Mastering Wooden Planes.
Last month I finished my first wooden Krenov style plane (check out the thread in this forum topic).
This month I sold all my Bedrock bench planes, and used the money to buy more Hock Irons for Krenov style Planes!
BTW...I still have a Primus 711 for sale if anyone's interested.

[Johnny Kleso]

For sure I would buy old Stanley's for my big and jack planes and update the blades if needed... IE: 7,6, 5 and 5 1/4 Even a No 3 and 4 to get started.. Thats maybe $300 not counting new blades.. Stanley only charges $17.50 for a blade and cap iron.. no need to go premium right off the get go.

All the rest I buy premium metal

[tico vogt]

I feel there is a place for all the types mentioned. I have new L-N planes that are really valuable to me, the Low angle Jack for shooting the end grain on doors, for example, the Miter Plane with the shooting board I make, the Super Chute ( http://www.ticovogt.com/?page_id=311), the Chisel Plane for specialty applications. For small work I have a Record low angle plane fitted with a new Hock blade (http://www.ticovogt.com/?p=440), and reconditioned Baileys #4,#5, and #7 with Hock blades as well. These planes really work and I have a feel for what they can do. They are dependable, with no surprises.
In wooden planes I have a few round bottom planes for sculpting, and an Ulmia dovetail plane. I'm looking forward to crafting or buying a wooden smoother and a small sized plane for delicate shaping.
Maybe there is no need to have an homogeneous collection of planes. Or chisels, for that matter.

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Not an expert but here is my opinion: why not build a Krenov style plane and compare with what you have? I also recommend David Finck's book.

You could even buy a LN and compare as well. Maybe a 4 1/2? You will only lose a couple dollars if you decide you don't want to keep it. Resale is great on these.

I have some beater Stanley's,a Bed Rock, a Krenov style wood plane, and a couple LN planes. They all are capable of leaving perfect surfaces.

The LN's are beautiful to behold and the adjustment mechanisms are awesome. The Krenov planes are lighter and glide over wood but it takes some time to learn to adjust them. The older Stanley's are inexpensive and surprisingly comfortable to use (I think the older Stanley totes are ergonomic miracles :)).

Give 'em each a try and see what you think!
Salem

[David Weaver]

I have no recommendation for you. I've bought them all and kept a lot of them. I like to use them all, it makes shop time more rewarding.

[Mike Henderson]

I have both but I mostly use the metal planes just because they're easier to adjust.

Mike

[Garrett Ellis]

I have no recommendation for you. I've bought them all and kept a lot of them. I like to use them all, it makes shop time more rewarding.

X2. It's less about the money, more about the learning/experience for me. That's why I would go with all 3 options! And then maybe from there, you would develop a preference... or just collect lots of all 3 types. Nothing wrong with that!

[george wilson]

I use wooden planes,but have LN and a nice art deco LV block plane. For 16 years I only used wooden planes being in public in Wmsbg. A wooden plane is satisfying to adjust,and you can get very proficient at it with a little brass hammer for the blade,and a mallet for knocking on the body. Wooden planes slide so much easier than metal ones. I wouldn't give mine up.

At the same time,I like my modern LN's and LV. I also have made several infill types. Tough decision. The great masterpieces of the World's museums were made with wooden planes. They are quite capable of doing anything you need done,if properly sharpened and adjusted. I certainly wouldn't trade them for old Stanleys,though.The high class new planes are better.

[Brad Gobble]

Thanks guys ... again, not afraid to spend $$, and LN's hold their value. That being said, the art of having a set of Krenov's that I'd made myself that match the Shaker bench I'm designing got me thinkning ...

I have one Ulima that is OK (block plane), and a Wood River #3 that does well too. But I still don't really have down the progression and since I'm about to hack up almost 200 bf of maple I thought I'd figure out my plane strategy.

Looks like I can get the Hock iron and plans for cheap, and I do need ever extra $ for benchcrafted leg and tail vice hardware ...

[Russell Sansom]

I also use all three. But I'm with Mike, above. The precise adjusters on the state-of-the-art planes and on my old Bedrock 608c, that's what puts me over for preferring the LN's and hi-quality Stanleys. I'm fairly fluent with a tap-tap adjusting wooden plane. But quick and precise adjustments can make a big difference. If I'm shooting the edges for all the boards in a cabinet, each board, sometimes the same board, wants a little more or a little less iron extension. This maple stile cuts like basswood, but the plane bounces right off stile number two. I have to advance the iron to get it to cut. Or I turn the stile around and now I'm getting too big a cut.
In my experience, this happens continually and I'm glad to have a finely-threaded thumbwheel to help me with the frequent adjustments.

[Jim Koepke]

There is no right choice.

Those proficient with wood bodied planes will be able to smooth a surface of wood just as well as someone with a fine infill. The same can be said for the person who has tuned up an old Stanley be it Bailey or Bedrock. The Lie Nielsen and the Lee Valley planes will be right their with them.

Each plane will have a different feel while doing its work. That is likely the biggest difference.

For me it is old Stanley/Bailey planes, that does not mean they are better than anything else. I have a few planes that take the tap tap adjustment method. It is really pretty quick once you get the hang of it.

jtk

[Mark Baldwin III]

Do all three. I have two rehabs, one new Stanley, and a growing collection of woodies. Premium bench planes don't fit in my budget, though. It takes little effort and less $$$ to make a Krenov style plane. Go ahead and make one. If you like it, you've got a user. If you don't like it, you haven't wasted much, and you've at least given it a shot.

[David Weaver]

I see you guys building krenovs always putting high dollar irons in them. There are scads of irons and chipbreakers from old woodies that no longer have bodies to go along with them, and they are usually about $10 IIRC, i've gotten three sets for that much before just browsing around on peebay.

I think they would make very nice krenov planes, even though most will not be quite as hard as a new hock iron, they will be hard enough and they are usually of a very fine grained steel that is a pleasure to sharpen.

[Staffan Hamala]

A couple of questions for those of you who have built Krenov style planes:

Which plane was the first you built? Which different types of planes have you built?

I'm interested in trying to build one, but I'm not sure where to begin.

[Casey Gooding]

The answer is very simple:
Do all three!!!

[Orlando Gonzalez]

I agree with doing all three. I did just that - vintage Stanleys, LV BUs, and woodies (Blum, Philly, vintage, Japanese, but no Krenovs). I stuck with all the woodies because that's what I prefer. However, it may not be what you end up doing and that is also ok because in the end it has to be what you prefer/like.

[john brenton]

The topic comes up quite a bit here, and when it's all said and done the general consensus is that although it depends on the users preference, there are applications where a top quality metal plane actually does excel.

The "tappa tappa" is not difficult at all...and after you've done it for a while the mechanical adjuster is kind of a pain. Just yesterday I took out a Stanley #4 that I had stowed away to take a pic so I can sell it. Adjusting proved to be kind of annoying. With the woodies you just tap the wedge in, sight down the sole, and if it's set too shallow you gently tap the back of the iron. If it's too deep you tap the strike button. It's amazingly simple.

There are woodies that you will waste your time on if you are trying to revive them, but most of the ones I've revived really didn't take that much work...or should I say that I didn't make too much work for myself. If you want to sand them down a bit to really clean them up you can. If you just want to oil them you can. Flattening the sole, while not EASY, is much easier than a metal plane, and inlaying the mouth doesn't take too much effort.

[Pat Barry]

What is the biggest advantage of the wooden plane? I can see for the custom molding planes the wooden ones would be best - virtually no one has the tools needed to make custom metal molding planes, but for regular planing? Don't get me wrong, I can definitely appreciate the satisfaction that you would get from constructing your own, and using it must be equally satisfying, but are they better? By the way, I see lots of wooden planes in antique stores but rarely metal planes. I have not yet been tempted to buy a wooden plane. What am I missing?

[David Weaver]

It's lighter and slicker across wood without having to wax it all the time. If the wood isn't unruly and unpleasant to plane, you'll be less tired.

Plus, one way or another, you can come up with very cheap wooden planes. I don't have any that had a price of more than $25 (without shipping at least).

I hear pam's footsteps......


(yes the japanese planes are more).

[john brenton]

Just last week I just stopped in Walterboro, SC, where there are 5 or so antique malls on the same strip. I handled about 30 or so wooden planes and only one would have been worth my time. It was a 1/2" dado plane with the depth stop, iron and knicker all in tact. I would have bought it but it was $40 and I don't need a 1/2" dado plane. The rest were all good for the iron, but that was it, and at $30+ it's not worth it.

Anywho, the point being is that when you know how to evaluate wood planes you immediately find the things that make the plane not worth your time. There are enough quality wooden planes on the market where I just forego the damaged woodies and wait for the better one. There was a time in the not so distant past where you could basically steal quality wood planes off ebay. I'm not sure if things have changed for good, or it's just the flavor of the month, but they are commanding higher prices.

I just don't like the feel of metal planes. I don't like the handles as I have a wide Irish drinking and fighting fist, and I don't like the feel of the metal on the wood. Truing the sole is also easier...but you can still mess it up though. Inlaying the mouth is possible with a wood plane, where I don't know exactly how you would do that with a metal one. I think people shim the mouth, or get a thicker iron.

It's just preference I guess.

edit: I got into wooden planes by buying specialty planes like dado, molding, etc. which is the draw to woodies as you won't find those in metal bodies. Then you run across the smoothers, jacks, try etc. Part of it is the thrill of bringing them back to life.


What is the biggest advantage of the wooden plane? I can see for the custom molding planes the wooden ones would be best - virtually no one has the tools needed to make custom metal molding planes, but for regular planing? Don't get me wrong, I can definitely appreciate the satisfaction that you would get from constructing your own, and using it must be equally satisfying, but are they better? By the way, I see lots of wooden planes in antique stores but rarely metal planes. I have not yet been tempted to buy a wooden plane. What am I missing?

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I hear pam's footsteps......

Tromp, tromp, tromp. Fee, fi, fo, fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman. :)

I started to post and then read someone's message to the effect of "pick your poison." I agree with that, so didn't see the need to post.

I hate old metal planes, especially Stanleys, from personal experience; love wooden planes and the one or two metal planes I've still got. So, pick your poison.

Pam

[Mark Baldwin III]

A couple of questions for those of you who have built Krenov style planes:

Which plane was the first you built? Which different types of planes have you built?

I'm interested in trying to build one, but I'm not sure where to begin.

First one was a Hock kit. At the same time, I purchased one of his 2" irons and made a smoother. Since then, I got a Hock shoulder plane kit. I just finished a jointer and a 55degree smoother. Late last year, I made a scrub. My other woodies are antique moulders and a moving fillester.

And to Pat's question about why woodies over metal...I can make a woodie for a lot less money. If you go so far as to make your own iron, the price tag can get really cheap. I have more time than money. If I could afford LN's and LV's, there is no doubt that I would have some.

In the end, I happen to like woodies. I also like metal planes. I have to say, that I prefer the feel of a wooden plane. I'm in the "what tool can I afford" camp. I won't knock one or the other.

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Just pick up David Finck's book. Yes you can learn how to build a Krenov style plane on the web but David's book helps you learn how to work wood.
Salem

[Andy Hsieh]

bench planes - metal
moulding planes - wood
scrub - wooden
specialty planes - metal
lather rinse repeat...or just buy em all, decide what you like, sell off what you don;t want or like...or keep it all and create a museum of eccentric tools...sindelair ring a bell :)

the whole tool building portion is a completely another slope to fall down and smile as you descend.

[Chris Jackson]

A couple of questions for those of you who have built Krenov style planes:

Which plane was the first you built? Which different types of planes have you built?

I'm interested in trying to build one, but I'm not sure where to begin.

Staffan, I would again recommend David Finck's book...read it and construct the first plane he recommends (a jack plane around 10"). I built mine with a 1-3/4" Hock Iron which I purchased straight from Ron Hock's site...David Finck also has his own line of irons and chipbreakers which you can buy online. Good luck...you'll really enjoy building this plane, and even more so, using it! The feeling of pulling a 0.001" unbroken shaving that you can read through out of a plane that you built is unlike anything in the world.

[Harlan Barnhart]

Brad, if I were you, I would avoid spending a lot of money to commit until you know your personal preference. Try a few different options, eventually you will develop a preference. Then you can put the remainders up for sale on the classified section.

I wish I had taken more of a wait and see approach with chisels. I have full set I don't really need but thought I needed at the time. I wish I had the money instead but in my uneducated zeal I overpaid so that money isn't coming back.

[Brad Gobble]

looks like I need to check out Finck's book ... the Hock irons look good, and I respect a guy who answers his own phone. I have a hard time buying a kit though, especially with the hundreds of BF of lumber we churn thourh each year.

Since the first plane I need is a Jack, followed closely by a jointer, I think I'll go to crosscuts or thereabouts and grab a hunk of something interesting and order a pair of irons. I'll doc up the process and go from there.

BTW, I know for a fact that the LN/LV weapons are truly awesome, but i think it's worth a day in the shop and $100 to build two big planes to see if they get the job done pleasantly.

[Stanley Covington]

All three types have their merits and demerits. I agree with Harlan that it is unwise to commit too heavily to one type until you know what works best for you, unless you are the collector type that just wants one of everything.

I have made a living with planes and chisels at various times in my life, and have worked in various types of woods, and in various climates around the world, and have developed my own preferences which will never match yours. But in any case, I have tried almost everything at one time or another searching for the (1) most cost/time efficient, (2) most economical, and (3) most satisfying tools for each application. In my experience, time efficient most often directly equates to economical.

When you make a living with your tools, and must answer to a customer (who is frequently watching you work and maintain your tools), speed and precision is everything, and the cost of individual tool becomes relatively unimportant. In a plane, that means the sole is flat and the blade cuts well WHEN YOU NEED IT all day long. No time to screw around with sharpening or fixing warped planes. It also means you take two of each critical plane to the jobsite, sharp, fettled, and ready to go, ever morning so that work continues without screwing around with tools.

The downside to antique wooden planes is that they are high maintenance. I own and used antique wooden planes for a time. The old laminated cast iron blades are very good. They take a long time to get working right initially, and once they are ready to go, they still have all the problems of a modern wooden plane.

Modern wooden planes: I made them in the Krenov style using antique cast-iron laminated blade cut down in length. This was before Hock was around, and Stanley/Record etc was the only source of plane blades commercially. These planes worked very well, and were satisfying to use. I still use them, but have given most to my sons.

I learned much about woodworking from craftsmen in Japan when I lived here for about ten years as an engineering student and engineer. I purchased and used a lot of Japanese planes. I currently live in Tokyo and use them frequently now, although I don't make my living with my tools at this time. Excellent blades, and even more satisfying to use than the Krenov-style planes. But they can be even more fussy than the Krenov wooden body planes because they are one piece bodies and not laminated.

Wooden planes problems:
1. The bodies move with changes in humidity and so need extra work to keep them cutting, and to keep the mouth the right size. No way around this. And the longer the body, the more pronounced the movements/warpage become. Not good for jointing. Also keep in mind that a plane that works in one set of weather/temp/humidity conditions may well stop working under different conditions and in a very short period of time. This can be very uneconomical, and very embarrassing when it happens in front of a client expecting you to make them a product, not fiddle with your tools.
2. The soles are softer than steel or brass soles, and wear out, develop grooves, and need regular reworking and remouthing as they wear. This is not so much a problem for smoothing/finishing planes where pressure on the sole is relatively small, but it becomes a big problem with roughing planes dragged back and forth on rough wood surfaces, and small planes that are used to cut/trim edges and end grain.

Wooden Plane Advantages:
1. Frequently better blades (but not always).
2. Lighter weight, less tiring, easier to control, easier on the hands and back.
3. Better performance on softwoods.
4. Emotionally satisfying to use (when they are behaving).

Metal-bodied Plane Problems:
1. Heavy. Not always bad, but they are more tiring, and harder on the hands and back.
2. Blades are not always as good as wooden-bodied planes, especially the Japanese variety. Therefore, more frequent sharpening.
3. Bulkier.
4. Prone to rust.
5. Many are easily broken if dropped. LN is an exception.
6. If the sole is not flat, they are a bitch to true. Therefore, and because of 5 above, cheap metal-bodied planes are not a good idea, while the best are worth the extra cost.


Metal-bodied Plane Advanatages:
1. Don't warp, and always ready to go. Big time savings.
2. Sole is flat when purchased (at least in the case of the high-end planes like LN. Others are not worth owning).
3. Speedily adjusted.
4. Never needs to be remouthed.
5. Sole is harder that the wood it is cutting, so it doesn't wear as quickly as wooden planes, and doesn't develop grooves.
6. Higher blade angle (at least compared to Japanese planes) makes them better for hardwoods.

My solution is to use an old Stanley jack with a laminated Japanese blade for scrubbing and hogging. The sole is tough, the extra momentum is very welcome, and the blade will not take a monstrous chip if it hits a bit of sand. I use a LN jointer plane for making straight edges and flat surfaces. They never warp. I use a LN block plane for small stuff. I use an LN plane for shooting since the extra momentum is useful and it is always 90 degrees.

For hardwood smoothing, I mix Japanese planes and my LN 4 1/2 smoother, depending on which works best with the grain and hardness of the wood. For softwood, I use a Japanese smoothing planes exclusively. I also use Japanese wooden planes for plowing, grooving, chamfering, molding, and for rounds and hollows. In other words, more wooden-bodied planes in total than metal planes, but what they metal planes do well, they do much better than the wooden planes.

Try them all and you too will develop the set of tools that work best for you. As I said before, though, make your initial purchases few, and use the tools a lot, to ensure a true apple-apple comparison.

Stan

[george wilson]

It was not uncommon to plate the soles of wooden planes with steel or brass,held on with small wood screws.

[Brad Gobble]

It was not uncommon to plate the soles of wooden planes with steel or brass,held on with small wood screws.

What about Lignum Vitae sole like the Ulima planes?

[Stephen Pereira]

It was not uncommon to plate the soles of wooden planes with steel or brass,held on with small wood screws.

oh oh..I can see another project forming. What thickness steel or brass would you suggest?

[Salem Ganzhorn]

The one ECE plane I have had still needed the sole flattened. But I did really like the Lignum Vitae. Sweet stuff.

[john brenton]

Not sure if George is talking about plating the whole sole, or just the toe from the mouth forward...but you can find examples of the latter in google images, or sometimes they show up on ebay. It's rare to see the whole sole plated. I passed up what appeared to be a really nice coffin smoother with and adjustable brass toe not too long ago.

[Chris Jackson]

looks like I need to check out Finck's book ... the Hock irons look good, and I respect a guy who answers his own phone. I have a hard time buying a kit though, especially with the hundreds of BF of lumber we churn thourh each year.

Since the first plane I need is a Jack, followed closely by a jointer, I think I'll go to crosscuts or thereabouts and grab a hunk of something interesting and order a pair of irons. I'll doc up the process and go from there.

BTW, I know for a fact that the LN/LV weapons are truly awesome, but i think it's worth a day in the shop and $100 to build two big planes to see if they get the job done pleasantly.

Brad...The LN's are definately outstanding as iron goes...I've owned several and I will say that they have their place. However, I think once you've got a wood plane, a successful, satisfying one under your belt, you won't find need for the "Big Iron" any longer.

In my most humble opinion there is one place where iron certainly excels and cannot be matched by wood which is the block plane arena. A well tuned Lie Nielsen or Stanley 60-1/2, first of all will make creating your wooden bench planes much easier and more satisfying, and secondly have a myriad of "quick" task specific functions, for which it is unrivaled.

So, once you get set on picking up Finck's book and getting to work, make sure you've got a nice, well tuned block plane...which he actually covers in the first couple of chapters. For my money the LN can't be beat, I have both the adjustable mouth and the rabbet block, wouldn't trade them.

Hope that helps.

Chris

[john brenton]

Can't speak for the lignum vitae, as the soles on my german planes are hornbeam...but they took quite a bit of careful planing, sanding and scraping to get them truly flat. Planing a plane is a nerve wracking task. I still don't know that my 24" jointer is flat. The straight edge says yes, but the eye says no.

I can hold it up to the light and no light passes between the sole and the straight edge...but still, sighting down the sole it just doesn't look right. Maybe it's an illusion...maybe I need a better straight edge. Either way, it works great. Going for the perfectly flat is just an endeavor.


What about Lignum Vitae sole like the Ulima planes?

[Leigh Betsch]

Well if you're really conflicted you could go with a transitional!

I don't use my planes to make a living, if fact it seems I spend more time making planes than I do using them. But that' becasue I like too. I don't have any LN planes but if I was trying to make a living with a plane I would have a bunch of them.

[george wilson]

Thin steel or brass was used. Some old catalogs advertised steel soles with sides about 1/4" high already formed to slip your plane into. THAT IS,if your coffin smoother was perfectly that shape.

Usually,steel saw plate ccould be used( though it would be HARD to saw into shape,or brass about the same thickness.

[Pat Barry]

A wooden plane with a metal soleplate - brilliant idea! That should help solve the wearout issues with the wooden plane that Stanley was mentioning.

[Tri Hoang]

Thin steel or brass was used. Some old catalogs advertised steel soles with sides about 1/4" high already formed to slip your plane into. THAT IS,if your coffin smoother was perfectly that shape.

Usually,steel saw plate ccould be used( though it would be HARD to saw into shape,or brass about the same thickness.

Would wood movement causes problems to permanently attached metal soles?

[george wilson]

Not on the length of a smooth plane,unless it was made from green wood.:) Done repeatedly to old planes,and I haven't ever seen one with the screws getting dragged sideways by swelling,or the sole buckling from shrinkage. The screws are usually about #4,#5,or so,perhaps 5/8" long,or maybe 1/2".

[john brenton]

Enter the infill plane I suppose. I need to get me one. Who is this Jim Bode that has the most beautiful infill planes? Where does he get them. Does he have an infill tree or somthing??? Damn you 2Lshark!!!!

[Peter Pedisich]

Enter the infill plane I suppose. I need to get me one. Who is this Jim Bode that has the most beautiful infill planes? Where does he get them. Does he have an infill tree or somthing??? Damn you 2Lshark!!!!

And the Ultimatum braces he has are incredible.

[george wilson]

I went to his site the other day and looked at everything. Tempting tools,but the prices are well known to be high.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I was looking at a pair of planes today, they are horned style with screwed on brass soles. According to the seller they were used at the Ford plant for making the wooden parts way back when. If I had a use for one, I would have bought one or both of them. They would look neat on a shelf, but I'm no collector.