Ebay Madness: What did I just buy?

[Chris Thompson]

OK, I broke my promise to myself to not surf ebay on payday. Tonight I was looking around because I wanted a #7 or #8 as I currently only have 4's and 5's.

The "closing in 5 minutes" sickness bit me and I jumped at an auction for a plane of a brand I've never heard of.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6146812601

I can't find anything about "Savage" through google. The dimensions listed make it out to be a #7, but only time will tell.

I look at it this way, if I got a good user #7 for $26, then I'm in pretty good shape.

If it turns out to be a piece of crap, well then, I just paid $26 to re-learn the ebay impulse-buy lesson, and it's not enough cash to be truly painful.

[Tom LaRussa]

OK, I broke my promise to myself to not surf ebay on payday. Tonight I was looking around because I wanted a #7 or #8 as I currently only have 4's and 5's.

The "closing in 5 minutes" sickness bit me and I jumped at an auction for a plane of a brand I've never heard of.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6146812601

I can't find anything about "Savage" through google. The dimensions listed make it out to be a #7, but only time will tell.

I look at it this way, if I got a good user #7 for $26, then I'm in pretty good shape.

If it turns out to be a piece of crap, well then, I just paid $26 to re-learn the ebay impulse-buy lesson, and it's not enough cash to be truly painful.Chris,

In 1827 a guy named Hazard Knowles patented the first metalic hand plane in the U.S. One source says that Knowle's planes were manufactured by Savage Manufacturing of Savage, Maryland. http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=4859&type=X

Savage Manufacturing was chartered in 1821. http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/megafile/msa/speccol/sc2900/sc2908/000001/000200/html/am200a--551.html

I also found an article which suggests that Hazard Knowles was not associated with Savage Manufacturing, but that Savage did build planes based on his ideas. http://www.mwtca.org/OTC/ar000018.htm

In any case, it appears that what you have is a jointer plane based on a pre-Bailey design. How old the thing is would be impossible to say, but it stands to reason that there is at least a possibility that it's a real collector's item.

[Charles McKinley]

The design doesn't look to pre-date Bailey but it looks like it should be a good user.

Keep us posted. If you bought a good user for $26.00 that is a great buy.

[Leif Hanson]

Just hazarding a guess, but I think it might also be the Savage Arms company as well. I think the Savage Co./Knowles planes Tom refers to might pre-date this plane by a few years... The plane pictured is quite similar to the bailey designs of the late 19th century, and a host of companies started to manufacture planes as the bailey patents began to run out around that time - a case in point would be Vaughn and Bushnell, I believe. Also, Stanley was known to manufacture planes for other companies, such as Keen Kutter and the Winchester Repeating Arms company, so I don't think it would be too big of a stretch to believe that the Savage Arms company could have flirted with the idea as well.

Bob Kaune's Bedrock typing page has a link to a photograph comparing the Keen Kutter to the type 4 Bedrock plane here:

http://www.antique-used-tools.com/brkkcompare.htm

Again, it's just a guess. Somebody must have a PTAMPIA book that could look it up.

Some more somewhat relavent links:

http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu:8080/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id=59624&submit_thread=1#message

http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu:8080/~cswingle/archive/bio.phtml?message_id=20902

More information on Keen Kutter and the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. connections with Stanley/Bailey planes (as well as other hardware stores, too) can be found here:

http://www.thckk.org/

It looks like a good plane to me, in any case... I would definitely keep researching it, if you can. Let us know what you find out!

Leif

[Tom LaRussa]

Leif,

Here are a couple more possible tidbits.


DATM (http://www.davistownmuseum.org/bibToolGenInfo.html#DATM) (1999) states that "the Stanley family had been making hardware in New Britain from 1831 on; they used a series of other names before they became the Stanley Works in 1852. In 1854, brothers August and Timothy Stanley and Thomas Conklin (an earlier rule maker in Bristol, CT) formed [the August Stanley & Co.] ...concurrently, they acquired the rule business of Seth Savage, Middletown, CT. In 1857, this company merged with Hall & Knapp as the Stanley Rule and Level Co." (pg. 748). http://www.davistownmuseum.org/bioStanley.htm

And, from a list of companies acquired by Stanley,



<DT>Savage, Middletown, Connecticut. <DD><LI type=disc>Rules, mid 19th century. Sold business to A. Stanley and T. Conklin in 1855. http://home.att.net/~philcannon/makers.htm </DD>

[Tim Leo]

I think I'm a little jealous...that is a good looking plane, and darn cheap for a No. 7 size plane. The history links provided above make the plane even more desirable to me.


Nice haul. Let us know how it cleans up.

[Leif Hanson]

Tom - I'm just speculating. You could well be right... but to continue on my path:

I don't believe Stanley was producing any metal planes until the late 1860's - and then you would see names such as Miller, Traut, and Bailey. there's a nice, brief history of them here:

http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/stanley.html

I haven't ever heard of anything made by Stanley with the name Savage, so take anything I say with that in mind. BTW - here's a couple shots of some "knowles-type" planes, which were first patented in 1827 and (arguably) manufactured by a "Savage" company of some sort.

http://www.mjdtools.com/auction/graphics/a182472.htm

http://www.mjdtools.com/auction/graphics/182472_lg.jpg

http://www.mjdtools.com/tools/list_220/129641.htm

http://www.mjdtools.com/tools/graphics/129641_lg.jpg


The plane that we are talking about:

http://i10.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/36/d4/b5_12_sb.JPG

http://i10.ebayimg.com/01/i/03/36/d5/6f_12_sb.JPG

It looks to me like a Bailey clone, placing it after 1870 at least, or even later - closer to 1900 I would say (patent length is what - 17 years or something like that?)

Leif

[Marc Hills]

Chris:

I don't know about shipping, but I think you did well. (Don't let that go to your head, because you're right; last minute bidding fever on eBay typically results in buyer's remorse, DAMHIKT).

I'm with Tim; it's unusual lineage makes it more interesting to me than a Stanley (sorry Leif, that's just the way I am :) ).

In judging quality of unfamiliar planes, I tend to look at the frog and the tote. The frog surface appears to be fully machined, which is a very good sign. And lesser quality planes typically have thicker, less fully-contoured totes. Yours has a nice graceful profile and appears to be fully rounded, another sign of quality.

Assuming the throat is in good shape and the sole isn't significantly warped, I think you have a beautiful piece of hand tool history there. And you got it at a very good price. I know I'd be proud to have it in my collection of users.

Don't forget: we expect to see a post in a few weeks with the obligatory money shot: fully restored and sitting pretty amid a pile of fluffy shavings.

[Chris Thompson]

Shipping ended up being $12 "Because of weight", so $38. Paypal sent, he'll be sending it out monday.

I'll definitely get a full set of pictures up here as soon as it arrives.

What's funny is, I was looking for a good early #7 or #8 and was willing to splurge. Heck I'd have paid over $100 on a bedrock, had one been available. I guess $38 ain't too shabby. :)

I've got about five planes I need to rehab. I got them mid summer and they got packed away when we moved. I don't even have a bench right now I can clamp a board in to MAKE fluffy shavings.

[Wade McDonald]

My Guess- 1930's or early 40s Sargent. Not a Stanley- twisted lateral lever, etc. Looks more like a copy of a tall knob, so after the low knob era. (The copiers followed Stanley on everything.) Handle too well contoured to be postwar plus the machined frog. If I remember right, a cast 422 on the base 'd tell ya.

Names are often slightly off, probably gleaned from the blade through rust. Unlikely a rare item, but you might get lucky and its a lost link. Should be a real good user. Let us know.

Wade