LN or Stanley #5?

[Billy McCarthy]

I realize this is asking for trouble, but I've gotten really good at that so why fight it?

At the LN Hand Tool Event over the weekend I came to the conclusion that the planes I have (inherited Craftsman smoother and wooden jointer) just aren't good enough. The mouth on the wooden 1 is too big and the frog on the Craftsman doesn't work properly with the Hock chipbreaker I have. The smallest shavings I'm able to get are about 1/8" and very inconsistent. Fortunately, LOML appreciates quality tools for performing quality work (she has a sewing machine that cost $1800). A jack plane is at the top of my shopping list, but I'm not sure if I should go all out and get the LN, or save some cash and get an old Stanley.

I've seen some Bedrock #5 planes around for about 1/2 the price of a LN. Assuming decent condition will I notice a big difference, or even on a Bailey?

Thanks.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have had both with good luck. The LN is a better hand plane in my opinion... Enough so that I gave away some excellent users to a friend in need and purchased LN. I broke down and purchased one of the new and improved Stanley shoulder planes when I had a specific need recently.... I still regret the decision. The work that I needed to perform just to make it work (it had broken things and Stanley did not respond to my requests) really annoyed me. People here told me how to fix it (I had to cut a new slot on top of a screw head, for example). Even now, it just does not adjust as well as I like...

On the other hand, you can get nice results with an old stanley. I have done it. But, the adjustment did not work as well and the iron was not as thick so it did not work as well, etc..... Only you can say how much your time is worth and if you can afford the premium price tag.

[David Weaver]

If you are just going to use it as a jack plane, buy any #5 that's solid and tight and put a replacement iron in it. I've used (heavily) both a pre-1900 bailey and a more recent bedrock and like them both.

I don't exactly avoid LN planes, but I think in cases where there are good options for a lot cheaper and the work isn't fine work, there's not a great reason to buy them.

I would definitely buy the LN or LV shoulder planes (and I did, one of each) instead of any 3rd world makes. An LN jointer is nice to have if you don't have one, too.

[Martin Cash]

If you are just going to use it as a jack plane, buy any #5 that's solid and tight and put a replacement iron in it. I've used (heavily) both a pre-1900 bailey and a more recent bedrock and like them both.

I don't exactly avoid LN planes, but I think in cases where there are good options for a lot cheaper and the work isn't fine work, there's not a great reason to buy them.



I agree with David.
Lie Nielsen make outstanding planes but for a jack plane, almost anything will work once you have tuned it.
My most often used jack plane is an old wooden Mathieson whose blade is set with a wedge. The only time I reach for my metal number 5 - an old Union - is when the timber's surface is so rough that it might damage the sole of my Mathieson.
We use our jack planes for quick stock removal not for finishing.
If you would like a LN, then invest in a smoother where the advantages of the LN manufacturing and design will produce fine shavings in finishing. These are not necessary in a jack plane.
Cheers
MC

[Chris Fournier]

None of this makes sense. Why will any plane do if you're after a number 5 rather than a 1,2,3,4,6,7,8? The fundamentals of these Stanley Bedrock based bench planes are all the same except for scale! If you want a top notch #5 then I suggest that you look to the maker of top notch #3,4,8 etc.

Let's apply a bit of common sense to this thread. The LN will out perform an old Stanley hands down; it was designed to do just that. Do you need this high performance LN #5 as opposed to an old Stanley? That is up to you!

Is the number 5 exceptional compared to its bench plane siblings? Not a chance. It is merely the plane between 4 and 6.

[David Peterson]

For the price of a LN you could have a terrific Stanley jack plane and a jointer.

I have a LN 4 1/2 which I enjoy using but I just as often go to the old Stanleys I've acquired over time. I have a 5 1/2, type 11, that I use more than anything (I have a 605 1/2 Bedrock as well but, aside from the frog adjuster, I don't think it's remarkably better). Get an old #5 from one of the good guys (Patrick Leach, Brass City, - or a fellow Creeker) and it won't need much more than a sharpened blade to have it working like a champ. You'll definitely be able to improve on the 1/8" shavings you're getting!

Depending on the work you do an old Stanley#5 jack, with a couple of different blades, along with a #7 jointer can take you a long way and perform within a very thin shavings width of its modern incarnations. They won't have that "new car look", if that's what you'd prefer, but they will come with a lot of experience.

[Sean Hughto]

LN products are excellent. A 5 is not typically used for operations that require extreme excellence. Smoothing and jointing, however, are where the LN quality really shine for you. Buy a LN 3, 4, or 4 1/2 smoother or a 7. For jack work, a nice old Stanley will do quite nicely. I love my ol' 5:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3274/3029105774_333e2181f4.jpg

[Chris Vandiver]

Hey Sean,

Love the green you used for the body of your #5. I have often thought of doing the same to some of my vintage planes. An excellent look!

[Casey Gooding]

Take a look at what you want your #5 to do. If you want a tool for hogging off material and coarser work, I would go with the Stanley with an aftermarket blade and chipbreaker (Hock or Veritas). If you want a tool you can dial in for really fine work and occasional coarser work, go with the Lie-Nielsen.

[Andrew Gibson]

I agree with a lot of what has been said so far. For coarser work there is no reason not to go with a vintage plane, I have a toolbox full of them and have no complaints.

Now I will say this. If you want a LN and have the cash... Get the LN and never look back.

[Zach Dillinger]

I agree with a lot of what has been said so far. For coarser work there is no reason not to go with a vintage plane, I have a toolbox full of them and have no complaints.

Now I will say this. If you want a LN and have the cash... Get the LN and never look back.

I agree with Andrew. If you have the money and want the LN, then buy it. It will work well, though not necessarily better for coarser work than a vintage plane. I prefer wooden planes and wouldn't give up my $10 Mathieson jack for any modern plane.

[john davey]

I went to the woodworking show in Baltimore a few months ago and listened to a good talk by Graham Blackburn. His theory was any old plane could be put into service if it was not physically broken. It could be tuned and used. He went on to explain that the newer planes are machined quite nicely but their main benefit was the ability to quickly set them up and change them. whereas an old #5 takes a little time to make adjustments. He said as a cabinet maker it was imperative for him to save the time and his Lie-Nielsen planes pay for themselves. If a hobbyist had no deadline and wanted to take the time an old Stanley would be fine. Either way a good sharp blade is needed. I thought this made some good sense, then I walked around the corner from his talk to the Veritas display and oogeled them for about an hour. Now I am totally confused again :)....John

[Don Dorn]

Count me among those that appreciate the LN and LV bench planes I have, but a #5 is not one of them. It's a Grizzly (Record Copy) that was tuned and has a Hock iron. I use it for shavings I'll never plan on seeing through (even though it will nearly do it, belive it or not) and it serves me perfectly well. I pick up the LN and Veritas as smoothers, jointer and specialty.

[Mike Henderson]

A good Stanley Bailey #5 will do all you need to do. If you want "better" get a Bedrock 605. For either, put a modern blade in it and you'll have a great plane.

You can do excellent work with any good Stanley Bailey plane (#3, 4, 4 1/2, 5, 6 or 7) if you take a bit of time to set it up and get a modern blade for it. For Stanley Bailey's, I like the type 11 but many are just as good. Type 13's are excellent, also. For Bedrock planes, any flat sided Bedrock will do an excellent job unless the plane is really bad (rusted, frankenplane, etc.).

Mike

One of my favorite planes is a Stanley 5 1/4.

[Joel Goodman]

I think the question is whether you want the jack as an all purpose plane -- also to be used as a smoother -- or as a rough "hogging" plane. From your post I think you are looking for an "all purpose" good plane. If it's to be all purpose -- as your one "good plane" then the LN 5 or even a LN 5 1/2 are excellent choices. I will avoid the BU, BD arguments but I also think the LN #62 (with two irons) is a fine first "good plane". As you progress you'll probably want more planes -- but I think getting one to really sing is very important. If you haven't got sharpening equipment and skills budget that in. At minimum 1K and 8K Norton waterstones and a honing guide and something to flatten the stones (BTW LN sells those too.) Whether a vintage Bedrock is the equal of a LN is not really your issue. The biggest difference is that the LN will work out of the box (with a little honing). You may or may not have a lot of work to do on a vintage plane. I have both vintage and new and love both.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

He went on to explain that the newer planes are machined quite nicely but their main benefit was the ability to quickly set them up and change them. whereas an old #5 takes a little time to make adjustments. He said as a cabinet maker it was imperative for him to save the time and his Lie-Nielsen planes pay for themselves.
My experience agrees with this. Namely, I could take nice shavings, but if I wanted to change things a bit, it took much more work than I was used to with my LN planes. Also, there is a big improvement with an after-market blade such as the IBC, Hock, or LN. I have an old Stanly #8 that I use. The plane is fit with a LN blade and chip-breaker. There are still some annoying issues with it sometimes, but, I don't adjust it as much as some of the other planes (like my #5).

[Billy McCarthy]

First, thanks everyone for your helpful input.

I think I'm going to go with the Lie-Nielsen. I want the #5 to be a "Jack" plane, as in Jack of all trades (though master of none). Given the amount of time and frustration I've already had with the 2 planes I have now, I think it's time to get something that will work right away. I've also got a son due in a few weeks and have been assigned some woodworking projects for his room. The sooner I can be up and running the sooner I can get down to business. Time is worth more than money this week.

[Andy Hsieh]

I have both - a stanley T15 no 5 and a recent LN no 5. I agree that the no 5 does not neccessarily warrant the need for Lie Nielsen, but I do sure enjoy using it.

[Zach Dillinger]

I agree that the no 5 does not neccessarily warrant the need for Lie Nielsen, but I do sure enjoy using it.

And that's all that matters. Best of luck with your new plane... and your new child!

[James Carmichael]

A good Stanley Bailey #5 will do all you need to do. If you want "better" get a Bedrock 605. For either, put a modern blade in it and you'll have a great plane.


I would sooner by the LN as a 605 and premium iron. The cost difference wouldn't be much, as a 605 that doesn't require considerable rehab will set you back a c-note or more. You can also go low-angle on the LN and have a more versatile plane.

I've grown weary of trying to fill shop needs by finding and rehabbing old iron. I would probably enjoy it if I had more time on my hands, but I found I was spending more time on that then actually using the tools.

My compromise on planes is to make my own woodies with Hock iron kits. The kits are $50-$60. I can build one in a tenth the the time finding and rehabbing and old Bailey would take, and get better results.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

My compromise on planes is to make my own woodies with Hock iron kits. The kits are $50-$60. I can build one in a tenth the the time finding and rehabbing and old Bailey would take, and get better results.

I was thinking about doing this..... The videos make it look like something I could do.

[John Sanford]

While the OP has made his decision, I'm going to throw a little extra point for consideration for anybody else facing the same dilemna.

How clumsy are you?

If you have concrete floors, and have been known to knock things off the workbench, trip, and/or drop things, then that vintage metal plane, whether a Bedrock, Bailey, Millers Falls, Sargent, Record, etc, etc, is at high risk. You can break a modern ductile iron plane, if you work at it. You can break a vintage cast iron plane by just accidentally nudging it over the edge of the workbench and letting it take a dive into Concrete Canyon.

[Charles Goodnight]

I recently decided no more planes I have to work hard to refurbish, so I bought a LN #5 as my first "good" plane. My others aren't bad. They are mostly stanley's off of ebay, and most took a fair amount of work to get them working right. Admitting that my old planes did a fair job, I have to say this LN is really nice. The only tuneup I did was to check that the iron was flat (it was) and to put a secondary bevel on it. Now, all I need are ALL of the other planes LN makes (this may take a while. . . )

[Bill Rittner]

You are overlooking a great jack plane and that is the Veritas bevel up jack. It will cost you no more than buying and rehabbing a Stanley 605 with a modern blade and cap iron and in the end you will have a better and more veratile plane. I have been dealing in antique and vintage tools for a long time and I do love them, but for a great user I also love my bevel up jack. It has the mass to do heavy course work with ease and the fine fit to do very fine work. I can take sub 0.001" shavings with it. Just another option for you to consider.