Veritas Bevel Up Smoother Plane & Cocobolo

[rick bear]

I'm about to order the Veritas Bevel Up Smoother Plane. I understand it does a good job with highly figured woods, which will be my primary use. I'm also hoping to use it on Cocobolo after running it through my Powermatic Planer.

Does anyone have experience with this Veritas planer on Cocobolo? Any suggestions?

Thanks - Rick

[Prashun Patel]

I have this plane. I also have the high angle (50 degree) blade for it. This blade requires a good deal of effort to push, but it kind of half planes - half scrapes, so it's been good for me in some situations.

[paul cottingham]

I have this plane. I also have the high angle (50 degree) blade for it. This blade requires a good deal of effort to push, but it kind of half planes - half scrapes, so it's been good for me in some situations.

Couldn't agree more. Love this plane, love it with the 50 degree blade. It's hard work, tho' even for a big guy like me.

[David Weaver]

It will work well for cocobolo. If you get some particularly glinty silicon-filled cocobolo, plan to sharpen a lot. It blunts blades fast. Rosewoods look so much better planed than sanded, though, and the less airborne cocobolo dust, the better.

[Jon Toebbe]

If you get some particularly glinty silicon-filled cocobolo, plan to sharpen a lot. It blunts blades fast.
For this reason, I'd strongly recommend you follow the oft-repeated advice to get an iron with a 25 degree primary bevel instead of the 38 degree iron that comes standard with the smoother, iirc. Put a nice, steep secondary bevel on it and go to work. When it gets dull, you only have to work on the skinny little secondary instead of the whole broad primary bevel. Much faster, much less wear on the stones, and equally lovely results.

I use a Low-angle Jack for everything these days, and keep a couple of irons with different cambers (also easier with a 25 degree primary, btw) and secondary bevel angles on hand. I mark 'em with a sharpie to make getting the right iron in the plane more fool-resistant (nothing is fool-proof, especially in my shop! :)).

[Tri Hoang]

I'm about to order the Veritas Bevel Up Smoother Plane. I understand it does a good job with highly figured woods, which will be my primary use. I'm also hoping to use it on Cocobolo after running it through my Powermatic Planer.

Does anyone have experience with this Veritas planer on Cocobolo? Any suggestions?

Thanks - Rick

It will work and you'll need to sharpen a bit more often or the wear bevel will get too profound that grinding become necessary.

[David Weaver]

For this reason, I'd strongly recommend you follow the oft-repeated advice to get an iron with a 25 degree primary bevel instead of the 38 degree iron that comes standard with the smoother, iirc. Put a nice, steep secondary bevel on it and go to work. When it gets dull, you only have to work on the skinny little secondary instead of the whole broad primary bevel. Much faster, much less wear on the stones, and equally lovely results.



I would, too. In fact, I don't see the reason to get anything but 25 degree irons ever.

[rick bear]

Thanks for all the input. I also got some feedback from Marty at Lee Valley by email,

Cocobolo is relatively hard and will dull a blade extremely quickly. Looking at this Plane on our website you will see that you have a choice of the O1 or A2 steel for the blade. With A2 being harder it is a better choice and we just recently brought out a new blade and it is harder than the A2 and is called M2. The M2 Blades are not on our website as yet and they cost $4.00 more. We would suggest a 38 degree M2 Blade with the Smoother. The blade has to be extremely sharp and a fine stone such as a 10,000 would be a recommend honing.

If you want the M2 Blade it is product code 05P3463. The included 38 degree blade can be swapped out for the M2 and the total cost for the plane and blade is $4.00 more. If you order this on our website order the Bevel-Up Smoother as shown. Then when you check out you will see a box labeled additional order notes. In this box type in to add the 05P3463 M2 Blade and remove the blade that comes with it.

[David Weaver]

I would suggest at least one M2 iron - they're only $4 more. I didn't know what the price was going to be, but everyone who has a LA plane should have one if they do anything with any tough wood. It is FAR more abrasion resistant and does not chip out. I guess I sort of assumed they would do what kunz does with pricing, which makes the kunz iron useless (why would anyone pay $100 for an iron?).

You will not believe how much more durable HSS is in abrasive woods until you try to do the same work once with A2 or O1 and once with M2.

Rob, we appreciate it on the pricing, believe me.

[Jim Neeley]

Rob Lee is definitely a top-tier guy... I've only had three dealings with him but was impressed each time... even as I was trying to talk him into re-offering the Tucker (unfortunately, not to be anytime soon) he took the time to explain to his reasons me why that is.

[Chris Griggs]

Out of curiosity, how high an angle does M2 need to be sharpened at to hold an edge. Does is need a 30+ degree angle like A2 or can it hold an edge at 25 like O1?

[David Weaver]

You can try both, but the HSS that I have (which is of unknown spec, at least unknown to me) does best at 30 degrees+. It does well at 30 degrees, though, which would put a LAJ at 42 degrees effective, which is still a pretty slick angle.

Maybe once powder metal is more common, those irons will do better. That's a more critical issue in japanese planes where the iron is bedded at 8/10 slope and a 25 degree bevel gives a relief angle of 15 degrees or so after the taper of the iron is accounted for.

[David Weaver]

Rob Lee is definitely a top-tier guy... I've only had three dealings with him but was impressed each time... even as I was trying to talk him into re-offering the Tucker (unfortunately, not to be anytime soon) he took the time to explain to his reasons me why that is.

If you've ever looked at the price of the kunz iron or the ASW iron (which is probably expensive because it's a boutique product, though it is known to be excellent), you can see why I expected the price to be higher. They *could have* made it just a little less than the other HSS offerings out there and waited until someone else came along with a low price to follow suit, but I think making the iron affordable relative to the other irons taking the high road.

[David Keller NC]

Does anyone have experience with this Veritas planer on Cocobolo? Any suggestions?

Thanks - Rick

Rick - No comments about the specific plane/blade (I tend to use Lie-Nielsens, though I've quite a few Veritas tools). However, I do a fair amount with cocobolo & honduran rosewood and I work mostly with hand tools. What I want to convey here is that your expectations for hand-planing just about any rosewood should be fairly low. In particular, Mexican cocobolo is extremely hard. Yes, you can hand-plane it, but only by taking very, very light shavings. The typical cocobolo one finds at WW shops and net dealers also tends to have a lot of grain reversal, and because the fibers are very, very hard but are not well bonded together, these areas tend to tear out even with a very steeply pitched iron. In such circumstances, you use a hand scraper to achieve a nice finish, but because of the wood's hardness, you will want to watch very carefully as you smooth-plane the faces. If the cut isn't set very very light and the mouth isn't really tight (as well as the grain direction and subsequent planing direction isn't carefully analyzed and take into account), you can easily tear out fairly deep areas that will take you all day to hand-scrape smooth.

I say this simply because though I love the stuff from an appearance/weight/feel standpoint, cocobolo is one of the most difficult woods to work with handtools. Ebony, for example, is often cited in books as being beyond difficult to work with handtools, but this isn't true. Gabon ebony, in particular, works very nicely with hand planes and chisels.

[george wilson]

$4.00 more for an M2 iron seems like a real bargain to me!!

[David Weaver]

I agree - ebony is very nice to work, the shavings from it are otherworldy - like little rolls of hard (or not hard if the shaving is thin) wax in appearance, very pleasing.

The key to cocobolo is a heavy plane with a tight mouth and a steep angle. I think that's something most people don't have.

The bevel up planes at 55+ degrees with the mouth set tight should do it OK, but sometimes it's better to saw it very close to thickness and just smooth it to avoid the tearout problem. When it's straight (if you can get a QS board or something, which isn't something you find everywhere - i found a nice long 8/4 stick in the bargain bin at rockler last year), it planes fairly nicely, but it's still abrasive.

I sized and squared the last cocobolo infill (panel plane) I did with a mujingfang at 45 degrees, but NO heavy cuts and a sharp high speed steel iron.

[Eugenio Musto]

I think that,with cocobolo, the BUS will work well with a 45-50° secondary bevel.Another option is the Veritas scraper plane but I think the BUS is more versatile, with a 25° blade you can also smooth soft woods like pine or fir.

[Terry Beadle]

You may also want to experiment with a back bevel of about 15 degrees. The back bevel should only be about 1/32 in width. The front bevel can be up to 35 ~ 40 degrees. Once you are done working the cocobolo, you can remove the back bevel. This is a technique David Charlesworth covers in his dvd Furnature Making Techniques: Five Topics. In it he covers three different techniques for dealing with difficult grained really hard hardwood. Mr. Charlesworth recommends taking only 1 ~ 2 thou shavings with this back bevel configuration.

[Rob Lee]

I would suggest at least one M2 iron - they're only $4 more. I didn't know what the price was going to be, but everyone who has a LA plane should have one if they do anything with any tough wood. It is FAR more abrasion resistant and does not chip out. I guess I sort of assumed they would do what kunz does with pricing, which makes the kunz iron useless (why would anyone pay $100 for an iron?).

You will not believe how much more durable HSS is in abrasive woods until you try to do the same work once with A2 or O1 and once with M2.

Rob, we appreciate it on the pricing, believe me.

Hi David -

No worries... after all, y'all bought the plane from us in the first place!

We put in the M2 blades primarily for the folks down under, who are blessed with some highly abrasive (but attractive) woods...and then held off until we could beef up our stone selection to handle the HSS better.

We do intend to also produce blades in another steel, which will even surpass the M2 in performance... but these are likely to be much more expensive ( 50%-100%?). M4 is an option, as are a few other PM steel candidates... we're still finishing our selection process, as chisel material is still our primary focus.

The biggest problem we have right now is just getting material .... inventories ran down during the economic slowdown, and mill run lead times are now 30-50 weeks!

Cheers -

Rob

[David Weaver]

Rob - some of those specialty mills are around here, i've been seeing articles about them expanding to meet demand.

M4 will be an interesting one. No surprise it will cost a lot more - the stock is incredibly expensive.

[Rob Lee]

Rob - some of those specialty mills are around here, i've been seeing articles about them expanding to meet demand.

M4 will be an interesting one. No surprise it will cost a lot more - the stock is incredibly expensive.

Hi David -

.... and we'll be buying from one of the mills in PA.

The lead time isn't as much mill capacity, as it is the ability of the mills to get raw material (at least, that's what I'm told).

M4 is certainly a leading candidate for us, and we have made chisels in it (and a dozen other steels), but we're still doing due diligence in our testing. There are still a few materials we haven't been able to properly test yet. It's not just a function of getting uber tough steel, or the longest wearing steel - it's a balance of performance, usability, and ease (difficulty) of manufacture. Ultimately - if it's not end-user friendly, it will limit our success.

Cheers -

Rob

[Tri Hoang]

Rob - is the M2 option available for the LA smoother (2")?

[Rob Lee]

Rob - is the M2 option available for the LA smoother (2")?

Hi Tri -

Yes it is (we have only made them for the bevel-ups so far...). Product # is 05P2563, and price is $36.50. It's only available with a 38 degree bevel angle ....

Cheers -

Rob

[rick bear]

I enjoyed reading all the comments. I placed an order with Lee Valley. I have lots of figured woods to experiment with. I'm sure as I learn how to use a plane I'll find many uses. The following photos show some typical grain patterns from some of my Claro Walnut.
184986

Couldn't get a 25 degree M2 blade. If I need a different steel, I may grind my own blade. I have some experience making knives along with the heat treating equipment.This is what I ordered yesterday:

10000x Select II Ceramic Stone
1000X/4000X Combo Water Stone
Body Only, B-Up Jointer
Body Only, B-Up Plane Smoother
2-1/4" M2 Blade, 38° Bevel,B-Up Bench
2-1/4" M2 Blade, 50° Bevel,B-Up Bench
2-1/4" A2 Blade 25° Bevel, B-Up Bench

Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions. This is a great site for learning. I look forward to sharing what I discover while using these new tools.

- Rick

[Prashun Patel]

Off topic: Rick, what kind of honing guide are you currently using?

[George Summer]

Hi Tri -

Yes it is (we have only made them for the bevel-ups so far...). Product # is 05P2563, and price is $36.50. It's only available with a 38 degree bevel angle ....

Cheers -

Rob

I tried the product # but no result.

[Tri Hoang]

Thanks, Rob. Perhaps I'm pushing my luck but M2 blades for the Stanleys/LN/WoodRiver would also be awesome.

George - I think you need to call to place the order with these. The products aren't yet avail on their site (not officially launch).

[rick bear]

This is my first venture into hand planing. I bought a honing guide from Woodcraft, but have not used it yet. Not sure what brand it is. My neighbor gave me a Stanley #5 which is what perked my interest. I repaired the toe and bought a new blade when I realized it might be better to look at some of the newer planes. I'll still get the Stanley operational, but look forward to using the Lee Valley bevel up planes.

- Rick

[rick bear]

After a little confusion, I received my order from Lee Valley (great customer service by the way).

I have been astounded and delighted by the quality and usefulness of the Bevel Up smoother. So far, I've only used it with the M2 38 degree bevel. It has opened a whole new world. I feel there is much to learn.

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. Any recommendations on where I can take a class on using hand planes? I suspect there are many things I need to learn to get the full use out of these beautiful planes.

- Rick